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Author Topic: Counterattack  (Read 1971 times)
Wagner
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« on: July 09, 2010, 09:38:45 am »

I haven't seen this card around and I think it would be incredibly flavorful, as well as a real rules mess. Here is a first attempt.

Counterattack
R/W-R/W
Instant
Play only in the end of combat step of an opponent's turn if creatures have been declared as attackers.
After this phase, you have an Combat phase, followed by the opponent's second Main phase.
Creatures you control that blocked this turn get haste and +3+3 until end of turn.


The other version I thought of would be 2 colorless mana more, not give any boost, but allow all your creatures to counterattack, not only the ones that blocked. Obviously is would be much better as you can not block and swing back full force, but I think forcing you to block is much more flavorful.

Any help of the wording?
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BruiZar
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« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2010, 12:27:42 pm »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.
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Wagner
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« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2010, 01:37:54 pm »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.

Well, I gave a +3 attack for red and +3 defense for white, I had in mind that with this version, probably not a lot of your blockers will still be able to strike back, so a boost would be welcomed, because hitting back with a bunch of 1/5 isn't really worth it.
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Delha
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« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2010, 03:36:51 pm »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.
Well, I gave a +3 attack for red and +3 defense for white, I had in mind that with this version, probably not a lot of your blockers will still be able to strike back, so a boost would be welcomed, because hitting back with a bunch of 1/5 isn't really worth it.
{W} {W} for "All your attacking creatures get +3/+3 until EOT" would already be insanely overpowered. When you take the side effect of a hypothetical card, make it harder to cast, and it's STILL broken, you've got a lot of toning down to do.

Compare this to Relentless Assault, for a start. This is cheaper, and instant to boot.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
Wagner
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« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2010, 04:35:21 pm »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.
Well, I gave a +3 attack for red and +3 defense for white, I had in mind that with this version, probably not a lot of your blockers will still be able to strike back, so a boost would be welcomed, because hitting back with a bunch of 1/5 isn't really worth it.
{W} {W} for "All your attacking creatures get +3/+3 until EOT" would already be insanely overpowered. When you take the side effect of a hypothetical card, make it harder to cast, and it's STILL broken, you've got a lot of toning down to do.

Compare this to Relentless Assault, for a start. This is cheaper, and instant to boot.

Well... of course it's instant...

Then I guess just the regular counterattack without boost would be ok. You have to block, get a free swing with the survivors. I still don't think this warrants a CC increase as to me it's use is still very narrow, with how many blockers do you expect to swing back on average, 1, max 2, that's a 4-5 damage potential in the right conditions, I find it a little underwhelming.
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Delha
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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2010, 05:32:11 pm »

Then I guess just the regular counterattack without boost would be ok. You have to block, get a free swing with the survivors. I still don't think this warrants a CC increase as to me it's use is still very narrow, with how many blockers do you expect to swing back on average, 1, max 2, that's a 4-5 damage potential in the right conditions, I find it a little underwhelming.
For the record, creating a situation where you have lots of block and lots of surviving creatures is not hard. Let's say you and your opponent both have four 3/3 dudes on the board, and that they swing with all of them. You pick one, dogpile it with all your guys, then counterswing for big damage. Then you take your turn and swing again, probably for lethal. That's pretty solid for 2 mana. With a pump spell, that scenario gets much uglier, since you don't lose your guy, AND get to use that extra power to swing with. I don't think this spell is nearly so weak as you make it out to be.

That said, let's move on and try to figure out how creating an attack in the middle of their turn breaks the game. If that part causes problems, the rest is arguably irrelevant.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
Cyberpunker
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2010, 09:01:48 pm »

Haste and +3/+0 with First Strike? 
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Philatio
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« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2010, 06:35:33 am »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.

Well, I gave a +3 attack for red and +3 defense for white, I had in mind that with this version, probably not a lot of your blockers will still be able to strike back, so a boost would be welcomed, because hitting back with a bunch of 1/5 isn't really worth it.

For your pumping logic, it should make RED creatures have +3/+0 and WHITE creatures +0+3.   Like Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran.
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Wagner
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« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2010, 08:47:01 am »

I would remove the +3/+3, that seems way too green. Being able to hit back when your opponent is tapped out is good enough as it is.

Well, I gave a +3 attack for red and +3 defense for white, I had in mind that with this version, probably not a lot of your blockers will still be able to strike back, so a boost would be welcomed, because hitting back with a bunch of 1/5 isn't really worth it.

For your pumping logic, it should make RED creatures have +3/+0 and WHITE creatures +0+3.   Like Agrus Kos, Wojek Veteran.

Well, I suppose it could, but that would put a lot more text and not be really that flavorful.

I must say I hadn't thought of the mass blocking 1 creature to abuse this card, with that in mind, I agree the boost shouold go, as there is no way to say "each of your creature that blokced oly 1 creature this turn" without it sounding silly.
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