Norm4eva
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« on: August 01, 2010, 01:13:55 pm » |
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They're robust and rude and they love metallurgy. They're tanks, they heart battle. They're funny like Goblins but arguably much smarter. And so far as I can tell, they're hugely underprinted in Magic. Unless I'm horrible at using Gatherer (and how could that be?) there are six. Six. I want moar.
Here's the thing, I dunno if they're mono-red. Their tendencies toward distrust of other races makes them seem White or Green to me. But their love of artifice is exceptionally un-Green. They love going into the red zone; White, Green and Red do this. They're honorable and have a genuine sense of hierarchy; very un-Red. I'm guessing that they should really be mostly White with a splash of Red.
Another thought I've had is that we're so used to tribal groups in this game bolstering each other - lords making the team bigger, giving everyone haste or flying or regeneration, etc. But Dwarves are interesting because they tend to stick to their own. They're Klingons; team players for the home team, and outside their comfort zone they either assert or shirk. It's not that working together makes them better, but working apart makes them worse.
I realize that tribal this and tribal that gets to be an ancient tiresome thing after a while, but I believe it's to do with the traditional approach to it; really most tribes are just offshoots of Slivers, with far fewer colors to access and far fewer abilities. I think it would be interesting to imagine a xenophobic race which encourages tribal deckbuilding by actually sort of powering down whenever something 'un-Dwarven' is on your side of the battlefield.
I'll start by suggesting one card, since I really have to go teach guitar lessons right now (and I always get inspiration as I'm headed out the door, dammit all), but I'd like to come back to this afterward. This guy isn't necessarily the *best* example of what I'm talking about but I'd like to flesh out some other ideas later. For now, here's this guy.
Dwarven Bruiser RW
Creature - Dwarf Warrior
As long as -this- is equipped with a Dwarf equipment, -this- gets first strike and "W: Regenerate -this-".
1/3
Basically I'm intrigued by the idea of tribalism reinforced through xenophobia. This is a creature deck that would never go out of its way to run, say, Tarmogoyf - the rest of the creatures would be too distracted, too put-off by the outsider to fight effectively. Let's chat more about this later.
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Wagner
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2010, 01:26:19 pm » |
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You are horrible at Gatherer, there are 38 dwarves. I'm really not sure how you came up to 6, at least 15 of then begin with the word "Dwarven". http://magiccards.info/query?q=t%3A%22dwarf%22&v=card&s=cnameI used to have a Legacy Dwarf deck with Recruiter and Charblelcher, wasn't any good, but still decent fun. I do wish they keep printing some from time to time.
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Marco
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2010, 02:18:47 pm » |
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Here are some dwarves from my set:
Dwarf Ancestor 2R Creature – Dwarf Warrior (Common) 2/2 Haste When Dwarf Ancestor enters the battlefield, if its rebirth cost was paid, it gets +2/+0 until end of turn. Rebirth 1RR (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
Dwarven Armorsmith 1RR Creature – Dwarf Artificer (Rare) 2/2 Tap two untapped Dwarves you control: Target artifact, creature, or land is indestructible this turn. (Effects that say "destroy" don’t destroy that permanent. An indestructible creature can’t be destroyed by damage.)
Dwarven Defender 1R Creature – Dwarf Soldier (Common) 1/2 T: Target unblocked attacking creature with mountainwalk becomes blocked. Activate this ability only during combat after blockers are declared. Cycling R (R, Discard this card: Draw a card.)
Dwarven Piker 1R Creature – Dwarf Soldier (Uncommon) 2/1 Whenever Dwarven Piker blocks, blocking creatures gain first strike until end of turn.
Reckless Explorer 1R Creature – Dwarf Scout (Common) 1/1 T, Untap a tapped land an opponent controls: Add one mana of any type that land could produce to your mana pool. Rebirth 1R (You may cast this card from your graveyard for its rebirth cost. If you do, it enters the battlefield with a death counter on it. If this creature would leave the battlefield, exile it instead.)
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2010, 04:55:38 pm » |
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You are horrible at Gatherer, there are 38 dwarves. I'm really not sure how you came up to 6, at least 15 of then begin with the word "Dwarven"
The fuck? The first search I did was just for the word "Dwarf" and I got like nine. Hmm, RTFGatherer, I guess. I suppose it occurred to me that Balthor didn't show up on my search but I thought maybe I confused him with some other Barbarian (I keep forgetting he's not a Barbarian). Meh. In any event, I think that tribalism by exclusion is a neat concept vs. tribalism by inclusion, and besides, most Dwarves are pretty bad.
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Delha
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2010, 12:21:20 pm » |
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Next time, I recommend searching by creature type, not cardname.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2010, 04:09:02 pm » |
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That's probably what I did.
In any event, most Dwarves blow and I think that thematically they fit the idea that I'm interested in; tribalism through exclusion as opposed to inclusion.
I'd like to start with some basic ideas. Some of these will probably have power level issues, but I'm really just in the 'phase 0' step of imagining how a tribe would work in this way. For example, the first card I posted is quite specific about what it needs to be holding in order to feel right in battle (Dwarven equipment). I like it (even if the regen ability is probably wrong, Dwarves are probably more prone to vigilance than regeneration), but it doesn't go far enough.
Example 2:
Hammerleague Dwarf (w/r) (mostly because I'm not sure about where they truly sit on the color wheel)
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
If you cast a non-Dwarf spell this turn, -this- gets -1/-1 UEOT. (alternate text: unless you cast a Dwarf spell this turn, -this- gets -1/-1)
"You, ah like. You, ah like too. But YEE, I dunno about."
2/3
This guy doesn't really want to play with non-Dwarven things. He's a Kird Ape unless you cast Lightning Bolt, or Incinerate, or Chain Lightning, etc etc. Basically any of the reasonable Zoo or Sligh spells, heh.
Dwarven Curmudgeon 2RW
Creature - Dwarf something
-this- gets +1/+1 for each Dwarf creature on the battlefield and gets -1/-1 for each non-Dwarf creature on the battlefield.
"Sorry I'm late, mmm let's see...there's Gimli, there's Kromlech, there's... ah, who are you again?"
4/4
I like this even if the cmc : p/t might need adjusting; back in the early MtG days creatures had pretty obvious racial prejudices, and that's something that's fallen out of flavor because they introduced SO many creature types and (I think) they realized it was an issue that didn't come up often enough. Taking the specificity out of it - not just saying "this card gets -x/-x whenever an Orc is in play" - and generalizing it fits into my weird scheme.
These are just a handful of ideas to play with. I'd like to discuss the overarching idea - tribal exclusion - with everyone here a little more before I talk about the spells/equips I have in mind. I realize that the usual pattern is to have a more fully fleshed out concept before posting but I like watching this board take ideas apart and put them back together, so I figure what's the use of creating 8 Dwarf creatures, 4 Dwarf spells and 2 Dwarf Equipment cards only to have them all screwed with anyway :)
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #6 on: August 11, 2010, 09:00:48 am » |
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What about this card: Metallurgic Sanctum  Tribal Enchantment - Dwarf Artifacts you control have Affinity for Dwarfs. Dwarfs you control have Affinity for Artifacts. When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum. EDIT: Updated to make sure it doesn't auto-break. Metallurgic Sanctum  Tribal Enchantment - Dwarf Artifacts you control have Affinity for Dwarfs. Dwarfs you control have Affinity for Artifacts. When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact, nonland permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum.
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 03:41:50 am by Darkenslight »
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Daenyth
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« Reply #7 on: August 11, 2010, 09:57:47 am » |
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When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum.
Lands?
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Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
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Killane
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I am become Death, the destroyer of Worlds
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« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2010, 09:58:02 am » |
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What about this card: Metallurgic Sanctum  Tribal Enchantment - Dwarf Artifacts you control have Affinity for Dwarfs. Dwarfs you control have Affinity for Artifacts. When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum. Seems bad with lands  Edi: Ninja'd!
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DCI Rules Advisor _____________________________ _____ Are you playing The Game?
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Darkenslight
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« Reply #9 on: August 12, 2010, 03:40:42 am » |
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When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum.
Lands? Eh, who needs them?  But seriously, thanks for pointing it out. I'll edit the card accordingly.
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AmbivalentDuck
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Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.
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« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2010, 12:44:31 pm » |
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Do you get a Balrog if you control enough dwarves + a dwarven mine? That'd be kind of cool. Maybe search out Malfegor? He's kinda like a Balrog.
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2010, 06:14:36 pm » |
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Do you get a Balrog if you control enough dwarves + a dwarven mine? That'd be kind of cool. Maybe search out Malfegor? He's kinda like a Balrog.
I've always sort of liked the idea that a tribe is supported by an 'off-tribe' Big Nasty. Like back in early Onslaught Block when Goblins ran Firecat, Soldiers played Exalted Angel, Wizards played that hard-to-target Dragon guy, etc etc. Probably the coolest one was the weird Avatar that Clerics could summon, that tramply thing that stole guys from your opponent's graveyard. However, the theme I'm hoping to stick with is xenophobia. That means no Balrogs; or at least, none without a penalty for straying from the Dwarven clan.
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Delha
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« Reply #12 on: August 12, 2010, 06:48:22 pm » |
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Do you get a Balrog if you control enough dwarves + a dwarven mine? That'd be kind of cool. Maybe search out Malfegor? He's kinda like a Balrog. I've always sort of liked the idea that a tribe is supported by an 'off-tribe' Big Nasty. Like back in early Onslaught Block when Goblins ran Firecat, Soldiers played Exalted Angel, Wizards played that hard-to-target Dragon guy, etc etc. Probably the coolest one was the weird Avatar that Clerics could summon, that tramply thing that stole guys from your opponent's graveyard. However, the theme I'm hoping to stick with is xenophobia. That means no Balrogs; or at least, none without a penalty for straying from the Dwarven clan. I personally recommend Lord of the Pit. It seems particularly fitting in this case, since that means eating the Dwarves.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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Cyberpunker
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I just gotta topdeck better than you ^_^.
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« Reply #13 on: August 12, 2010, 07:29:23 pm » |
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We can borrow a page from the Warcraft world by giving Dwarves guns? They could be like slower Goblins but with more powerful tricks. Dwarven Gunslinger Whenever a Dwarven Gunsliger deals combat damage, you may have it to deal additional damage equal to the number of dwarves you control to target creature/player. 2/2
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« Last Edit: August 12, 2010, 07:45:56 pm by Cyberpunker »
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zeus-online
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« Reply #14 on: August 13, 2010, 03:30:48 pm » |
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DwarfAtog - 1R Creature - Dwarf Soldier Sacrifice a land: DwarfAtog gets +1/+1 Exile two land cards in your graveyard: DwarfAtog gets +1/+1 1/2 It seems like dwarfs used to interact with lands afterall... Could also be fun with planar birth...
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The truth is an elephant described by three blind men.
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Wagner
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« Reply #15 on: August 17, 2010, 10:12:23 am » |
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DwarfAtog - 1R Creature - Dwarf Soldier Sacrifice a land: DwarfAtog gets +1/+1 Exile two land cards in your graveyard: DwarfAtog gets +1/+1 1/2 It seems like dwarfs used to interact with lands afterall... Could also be fun with planar birth... Oh thanks, I just had a mental image of a fat atog with a beard!
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BruiZar
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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2010, 06:37:23 am » |
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What about this card: Metallurgic Sanctum  Tribal Enchantment - Dwarf Artifacts you control have Affinity for Dwarfs. Dwarfs you control have Affinity for Artifacts. When you control a non-Dwarf, nonartifact permanent, sacrifice Metallurgic Sanctum. Seems bad with lands  Edi: Ninja'd! I like this card.. Mutavault would definately fit in such a deck to help the affinity. Grudgeborn  Creature - Dwarf Whenever you lose life, put a +1/+1 counter on Grudgeborn. 2/2 Rune Blocker  Creature - Dwarf Whenever a player casts a non-dwarf spell, flip a coin. If the flip ends in your favor, return that spell to its owner's hand. 2/2
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2010, 09:16:26 am » |
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First, DwarfAtog is awesome. Second, this already-printed powerhouse from The Dark captures some of that xenophobic flavor: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=1796The problem Dwarves have always faced is that they have competed with Goblins and Orcs for Red tribal cards. But I guess that while we've have tribal blocks, and multi-color blocks, we've yet to have multi-color tribal blocks. Dwarves in red and white seem like a natural fit if Wizards ever goes that route.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Delha
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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2010, 12:20:13 pm » |
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Grudgeborn  Creature - Dwarf Whenever you lose life, put a +1/+1 counter on Grudgeborn. 2/2 Rune Blocker  Creature - Dwarf Whenever a player casts a non-dwarf spell, flip a coin. If the flip ends in your favor, return that spell to its owner's hand. 2/2 Broken much?
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2010, 01:22:23 pm » |
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Rune Blocker  Creature - Dwarf Whenever a player casts a non-dwarf spell, flip a coin. If the flip ends in your favor, flip it again. If the second flip ends in your favor, return that spell to its owner's hand. 2/2 Better? Okay that was a lazy attempt at balancing 
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The Atog Lord
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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2010, 02:14:08 pm » |
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Rune Blocker  Creature - Dwarf Whenever a player casts a non-dwarf spell, flip a coin. If the flip ends in your favor, flip it again. If the second flip ends in your favor, return that spell to its owner's hand. 2/2 Better? Okay that was a lazy attempt at balancing  There is no way they would print a two-mana spell that adds a coin flip -- or worse two -- for just about every spell that gets cast. Whether or not the spell itself is printable on power alone (it's not but that's another issue), the mechanics of the card would be something they can't print.
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The Academy: If I'm not dead, I have a Dragonlord Dromoka coming in 4 turns
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Wagner
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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2010, 04:15:19 pm » |
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 Granted this is 3 mana and not 2, but the basic principle is pretty much the same, spells even get countered and not just bounced. But agreed that flipping two coins for evey spell is something they would never print.
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2010, 12:44:52 pm » |
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Ok I'm borrowing a cue from MtG's recent penchant for using keywords as reminders as opposed to giving a card functionality via the rules of the game (Metalcraft, Chroma, etc). Here's a keyword concept.
Xenophobia - This spell can't be played unless you control two permanents that share a type with this spell.
Two might be a little too many, so the number is debatable. But I want it to be a mechanic that allows cards to be aggressively costed without having weird rules issues about watching for "non-Dwarf, non-land permanents" or whatever strangeness occurs. So for example:
Dwarven Linebacker RW
Creature - Dwarf Soldier
Xenophobia, vigilance
3/4 So in this way, we had to have played out a very specific opening hand in order to 'curve out' into this guy, meaning we built our deck to drop a ton of Dwarves and Dwarven equipment in the first one or two turns of gameplay. It's a simple way of making sure the guy goes intot he right deck and it isn't implicitly synergistic with other Dwarves the waay Slivers are. Personally this feels like the better starting point than imagining a bunch of guys with imaginative drawbacks.
EDIT - yes, I realize that not every Dwarf permanent can have Xenophobia or else the whole thing doesn't really work. That's not to say the biugger beaters in your deck couldn't still have it, you'v just gotta push a few grunts out the front door to scout around before the big guys come barreling in
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« Last Edit: September 17, 2010, 01:14:46 pm by Norm4eva »
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serracollector
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2010, 01:05:19 pm » |
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Snow White 2WW Creature - Dwarf Mistress 0/4 When Snow white comes into play put 7 1/1 dwarf tokens into play. tap: put a 1/1 bird token, 1/1 rabbit token, and 1/1 deer token with haste into play. At the EOT sacrifice all bird, rabbit and deer tokens. Sacrifice a bird, rabbit or deer, target dwarf gets +1/+1 until EOT. "make sure you wash up or no dinner!"
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B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
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Norm4eva
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2010, 01:09:18 pm » |
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@ serracollector
While I do enjoy bashing face on DDO with my female Dwarven Barbarian who looks strikingly similar to Shrek's Princess Fiona... your card troubles me. :(
Srsly, eh, putting a bunch of rabbit, bird, moose and squirrel tokens into play is sort of the opposite of "racial discrimination", but that doesn't mean there's no merit to such a card. 7 power for 4 mana? Holy shit!
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serracollector
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2010, 01:15:01 pm » |
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I just recently watched the cartoon with my daughter and thought about how at the end she was singing and all the rabbits, deer and birds got the dwarves to come and save her. thus the haste, but after they saved the girl wat do you think those dwarves did with all them animals? dinner time. the tokens all die EOT anways, might as well make lunch.
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