TheManaDrain.com
September 08, 2025, 03:17:32 am *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
Author Topic: Null Rod Goblins  (Read 13852 times)
chalywong
Basic User
**
Posts: 36


View Profile Email
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2011, 12:07:30 pm »

@DA - thanks for the pulling the thread back on track, the idea of more 1 drops is a sound argument that I'm willing to explore.  The problem is you need quality cards to fill those spots and the 1 drops I have used in the past have been underwhelming.  I am up for discussing cards for the deck but when people just post "needs this" or "that card is bad" but without reasoning or ideas for replacements it defeats the purpose.

The one drops I have tested out to a degree are
Goblin Vandal - looks good on paper and does hurt some decks.  The problem is he needs to do the same thing lackey does to get his work done.  Also he needs a mana for activation.  So essentially like earwig squad he costs 1 successful attack step and 1 red mana.  This is quite costly considering that the deck you are playing is probably trying to stop any goblin from connecting by throwing down blockers and using removal.  So after you connect you have decide if it is better for your gameplan to use the mana to destroy 1 artifact or use this mana to play spells. This is difficult and sometimes you just don't have the mana to waste to kill 1 artifact.

Mogg Fanatic -  I love this card.  He gains a lot of value in a confidant and welder rich environment.  Excellent against dredge and passable against fish.  The problem I found with him is that he is a terrible top deck and does not accelerate anything else in the deck.  He falls short in jump starting your gameplan because he is more a reactive card meant to pick off weenies although his 1 dmg has won me quite a few games giving me that last bit of reach needed.

Shirk Prospector - this is one I would like to test further.  He allows for alternative mana production against workshops and opens up t2 earwig possibilities with just himself.  Against dredge he can be even more effective than fanatic allowing your whole army to pop bridges.  He the most situational of the 1 drops and can be a dead card a lot of the time making me hesitate on his inclusion.

Aether Vial - I think it is too slow in this build and by the time it gets to enough counters the game state is out of your reach anyway.  In legacy games last much longer due to harder win conditions so vial can shine but in vintage the game can end so quickly that incremental cards like this are outclassed.  Also by adding it to the deck you need to remove null rod which I think is incorrect as I have stated earlier.

Goblin Welder -  if the deck played chalice and vial then I might consider this but he just doesn't have the impact as a hate card.  Trying to get multiple activations to get value out this game seems like going in the wrong direction.
Logged
hvndr3d y34r h3x
Basic User
**
Posts: 823


80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best an


View Profile
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2011, 07:27:51 pm »


Rod isnt good in the oath matchup? why because it doesn't hit the oath? ok but they still run vault and key right?
no, currently most list are a mirror of Paul Mastriano's running zero timevault/key and 2 tyrants.

welcome to a world where there are multiple verison of oath and not just one set version.
Is it a bad thing that I know more about what the vast majority of oath decks are playing at this time? I mean if you want to keep building and not know about the current meta, then by all means coninue. You might get lucky... but I'd post somewhere else.

Let's keep this discussion closer to the topic of the thread.  -DA
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:45:07 pm by Demonic Attorney » Logged

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am 80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best and on other days the world's best vintage player. Wink
chalywong
Basic User
**
Posts: 36


View Profile Email
« Reply #32 on: January 31, 2011, 09:18:32 pm »

So how do you guys suggest we fit Simian Spirit Guide in the deck?  What cards do you cut and how many do you run?

Another thing to bring up.  In the past people have played main deck leyline of the void.  Could this be a correct call in the current meta?  Is it the right card for this deck since drawing anymore than 1 is usually dead.
Logged
Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1872



View Profile
« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2011, 09:28:11 am »

So how do you guys suggest we fit Simian Spirit Guide in the deck?  What cards do you cut and how many do you run?
This is jumping the gun.  The first thing you need to ask is whether you should run SSG at all.  Don't start from the position that it must belong in the deck and so it needs to be fit in.
Logged

So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
chalywong
Basic User
**
Posts: 36


View Profile Email
« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2011, 07:33:48 pm »

@kelp Yea I feel the same way you do.  I'm just trying to see if anyone has been using them and how they are included.  It will merit testing if the list still has a decent enough permanent mana base and still has a high goblin count.  I like the idea of a card accelerating out more t1 null rods and lackies and is in fact usable as a beater in late game.
Logged
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2807

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2011, 05:05:48 pm »

Can you clearly define what it is that you're trying to do?

DA and I have debated at length whether or not you're presuming that Null Rod belongs in the deck.  Can I give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you're trying to build the best deck that starts with 4x Goblin Lackey?  Or are you also saying that we must also optimize for 3-4x Null Rod?

Either way, do you have a reason for not starting from one of the successful Instigator lists?  Is there a reason why you haven't yet accepted the need for Demonic Consultation and Mana Crypt based on their power level?
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
chalywong
Basic User
**
Posts: 36


View Profile Email
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2011, 09:31:52 pm »

@ADuck - Where are these successful instigator lists?  I check morpheus.de daily and have yet to see one on there.  Having one would be nice for a reference point.
Logged
Joblin Velder
Basic User
**
Posts: 510


Useless casual

ninjabot7000@hotmail.com CountRockula999
View Profile Email
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2011, 10:02:50 pm »

@ADuck - Where are these successful instigator lists?  I check morpheus.de daily and have yet to see one on there.  Having one would be nice for a reference point.

Agreed.
Logged

Team Monday Tuesday Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday: I will pee all over myself then we'll see who will end up looking bad.
ironcladlou
Basic User
**
Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2011, 01:39:02 pm »

@ADuck - Where are these successful instigator lists?  I check morpheus.de daily and have yet to see one on there.  Having one would be nice for a reference point.

My friend Joe set me onto Instigators and Earwigs when I first started experimenting with goblins. I put together a list based on his recommendation, and over time and testing my list has grown more and more similar to his. At this point, we run about the same deck with just different priority put on Kiki-Jiki versus recruiter (I'm heavier on recruiter)... Also, I think he also runs a Warchief. I'm not sure how our mana base compares. Here's my current working list:

4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Mogg Fanatic
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Earwig Squad
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Goblin Recruiter
1 Kiki-Jiki
1 Lightning Crafter
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
4 Simian Spirit Guide

1 Warren Weirding

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Jet
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring

3 Mountain
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Ancient Tomb

Board runs leyline, jailor, pyroblast, more weirdings, sharpshooter, gempalm, and some additional artifact hate.

Overall the deck has proven fairly solid, REALLY fun to play, and has made top-8 in two 20+ tournaments. While it feels a little weird taking goofy monsters up against some pretty serious decks, it's had a surprising way of delivering. The main power play revolves around prowling in an Earwig on turn-2, which is fairly consistent given the first turn drops, deck search, and availability of fast mana. While Earwig goes to work dismantling an opponent's deck, the lackies and instigators who are (theoretically) doing the Earwig prowl strikes are also busy putting together the Kiki-Jiki / lightning crafter / prospector infinite damage combo. For a three card combo, I've had good success getting it out within the first couple turns of the game (often times thanks to prospector's ability to sack non-essential goblins for mana). If you really want to put the pressure on while your opponent has a slow start, just recruiting Earwigs so you can draw and drop one per turn hoses your opponent's deck while building up your monster power. When all else fails, there's always weenie swarm. All good plays!
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 03:31:51 pm by ironcladlou » Logged
chalywong
Basic User
**
Posts: 36


View Profile Email
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2011, 12:29:47 pm »

@ironcladlou - thanks for list.  I do have a couple of questions.  What is your meta like?  Can it battle workshops well?  Also from the looks of it, this list looks like it has a lot of trouble dealing with threats after they already hit the board but I may be overlooking something.

I will definitely be testing out your list in the future and look forward to working with you guys to make our decks better.
Logged
ironcladlou
Basic User
**
Posts: 3


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: February 21, 2011, 04:09:57 pm »

@ironcladlou - thanks for list.  I do have a couple of questions.  What is your meta like?  Can it battle workshops well?  Also from the looks of it, this list looks like it has a lot of trouble dealing with threats after they already hit the board but I may be overlooking something.

I will definitely be testing out your list in the future and look forward to working with you guys to make our decks better.

Meta has been pretty broad. The deck has won and lost against everything from workshop to dredge to oath to adnauseum. It's generally proven to be a versatile deck against a lot of match-ups, although the bane of none.

For big post-board removal, Weirding is the ticket. It's saved me a couple times against Oath. You can fetch Weirding using Matron or Recruiter given that its a goblin spell. While Weirding is far from perfect, its come through enough times to have proven a solid value. Generally though, my most common problems are the little dudes who get in the way of Lackie and Instigator, which is the reason for running a full place-setting of Fanatics. A Fanatic's one-damage potential is a huge disruptor, and their self-sacrifice ability makes them very strong against Dredge.

As for Workshop... ha, that all depends on the game – and generally the outcome of the first turn. Lackies and Instigators are great against Sphere because they circumvent all casting costs. If you can get an Instigator through second turn and search out some hate, you stand to hold some board position. The main-deck combo for artifact hate is Kiki-Jiki and Tuktuk Scrapper. By copying a Tuktuk, you trigger ALL Tuktuk artifact kill abilities... so two Tuktuks destroy two artifacts and deal 2 damage (each) in the process. If you can copy Tuktuk on both your opponent's and your own turn, then you get two artifact kills on your opponent's turn and another three on your turn... that's five artifacts killed and 13 damage dealt. Not bad. Board in some additional artifact hate, and you've at least got means to stand your ground.

Overall, while this deck has its unique challenges against the meta game, I don't necessarily see it as having excessive handicaps beyond what most decks face. While I don't think it's a top-tier deck, its holes aren't necessarily bigger than other decks – its power plays just aren't as strong. Again, you've got to keep in mind that the key player here is Earwig. If you can dispose of an Oath deck's standard three monsters, or an Adnaus deck's three tendrils, or remove a Time Vault and two Tinker targets from the equation, then you've already covered a lot of distance toward holding the board. Generally, Earwig is your single most important and aggressive play, with all other pieces just acting as aggro-combo support. While Lackies and Instigators are awesome, I'd gladly sack them to a Prospector for the sake of making a bigger and better play.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 08:33:11 pm by ironcladlou » Logged
Pages: 1 [2]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.039 seconds with 20 queries.