Gluttonous Ooze

[policehq]

Gluttonous Ooze
 
Creature - Ooze
1/1
~'s power and toughness cannot be reduced.

Basically I'm thinking of something that gets Giant Growth'd and stays Giant Growth'd permanently. How do you remotely word that? Maybe "If ~'s power would be increased by 1, give it a +1/+0 counter instead" and similar for toughness?

This card seems printable and with good flavor for G/B. I have always really enjoyed combo decks that focus on the combat phase.

[Joblin Velder]

I really like the idea of this card, but its ability would make it incredibly hard to make a fair casting cost without making it suck. This might be the correct templating, but I'm not sure:

"If an instant or sorcery would increase ~'s power by any number, instead place that many +1/+0 counters on ~.
If an instant or sorcery would increase ~'s toughness by any number, instead place that many +0/+1 counters on ~."

[Norm4eva]

Last I heard they were making a conscious effort to stay away from any power/toughness modifying counters that weren't +1/+1 or -1/-1.  I knew they did it in the past, but for years and years they wouldn't even print cards that make -1/-1 counters, just because they weren't +1/+1s.  IIRC the Wither mechanic prompted them to create the rule about +1s and -1s canceling each other out, which if you think about it, means that only one type of counter will ever be on the creature in question - they'll all be +1, or they'll all be -1.

For this reason I think you'd have to have some weird wordings on this card in order to bring it inline with the current ideas behind card design.  This is my attempt at such a wording and it's pretty verbose:

If -this-'s power would increase, instead it gets that many power counters.
If -this-'s toughness would increase, instead it gets that many toughness counters.
-This-'s power is equal to the number of power counters on it and its toughness is equal to the number of toughness counters on it.
-This-'s power and toughness can't be decreased.

That's a lot of text.  I wonder if the lines about power and toughness counters can't be combined: "If -this-'s power or toughness would increase, instead it gets that many power or toughness counters."  That would clean it up a little.

[policehq]

I wonder if the lines about power and toughness counters can't be combined: "If -this-'s power or toughness would increase, instead it gets that many power or toughness counters."  That would clean it up a little.

This is my favorite solution, if one is necessary. I still like the random factor of not dying to Darkblast, Wither, and Dismember, though. I imagined the interaction between ~ and "until end of turn" effects to be like Form of the Dragon and Platinum Emperion or other. Wizards has printed a lot of "rules changers" in the past ten sets or so.

I don't think a 2cc is too cheaply costed. I understand Tarmogoyf was a mistake and therefore not the standard, but ~ requires multiple cards and more mana investment to be a 3/3 or 4/4. It takes 3 cards and 4 mana to consider it being better than, say, Rhox War Monk.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Gluttonous Ooze
 
Creature - Ooze
1/1
~'s power and toughness cannot be reduced.

"If an effect would increase Gluttonous Oozes power or toughness, increase it permanently."

[Joblin Velder]

That's pretty perfect. Well done.

[policehq]

Gluttonous Ooze
 
Creature - Ooze
1/1
~'s power and toughness cannot be reduced.

"If an effect would increase Gluttonous Oozes power or toughness, increase it permanently."

Let's say ~ were a 1/1 and the target of Blood Lust, then, on turn 3. +4/-4 as long as toughness doesn't go below 1. Hypothetically, would it be an 8/4 or 8/1 after a Giant Growth?

What about a parenthetical rules reminder accompanying the original wording?

The problem with the card and its conceivable fixes is that Wizards has always had a tangible reminder of permanent increases such as counters, equipment, or enchantments. But with this guy, I guess you could alternate between him and another creature with a Bonesplitter for profit.  It would probably be unprintable without counters because of complications.

[birds of paradise]

Gluttonous Ooze
 
Creature - Ooze
1/1
~'s power and toughness cannot be reduced.

"If an effect would increase Gluttonous Oozes power or toughness, increase it permanently."

Let's say ~ were a 1/1 and the target of Blood Lust, then, on turn 3. +4/-4 as long as toughness doesn't go below 1. Hypothetically, would it be an 8/4 or 8/1 after a Giant Growth?

What about a parenthetical rules reminder accompanying the original wording?

The problem with the card and its conceivable fixes is that Wizards has always had a tangible reminder of permanent increases such as counters, equipment, or enchantments. But with this guy, I guess you could alternate between him and another creature with a Bonesplitter for profit.  It would probably be unprintable without counters because of complications.

Can solve this with "would increase and/or decrease".

[AmbivalentDuck]

Gluttonous Ooze
 
Creature - Ooze
1/1
~'s power and toughness cannot be reduced.

"If an effect would increase Gluttonous Oozes power or toughness, increase it permanently."

Let's say ~ were a 1/1 and the target of Blood Lust, then, on turn 3. +4/-4 as long as toughness doesn't go below 1. Hypothetically, would it be an 8/4 or 8/1 after a Giant Growth?

What about a parenthetical rules reminder accompanying the original wording?

The problem with the card and its conceivable fixes is that Wizards has always had a tangible reminder of permanent increases such as counters, equipment, or enchantments. But with this guy, I guess you could alternate between him and another creature with a Bonesplitter for profit.  It would probably be unprintable without counters because of complications.

Can solve this with "would increase and/or decrease".

8/4
This is also pretty obvious after reading the actual rules text on Bloodlust:

If target creature has toughness 5 or greater, it gets +4/-4 until end of turn. Otherwise, it gets +4/-X until end of turn, where X is its toughness minus 1.

The problem with the card and its conceivable fixes is that Wizards has always had a tangible reminder of permanent increases such as counters, equipment, or enchantments.

Figure of Destiny 

[Delha]

Neat idea. I think might be too cheap, but that anything higher is too slow to be playable. :/

As for mechanics, how about limiting the effect to even P/T increases then including the replacement effect for counters? It's clearly weaker than the original suggestion, since asymmetric things (eg Blood Lust) don't stick, but at least it cleanly fits into current templating and covers the "tangible reminder" aspect. If not for that last bit, I'd think AmbivalentDuck's phrasing is perfect.

"If CARDNAME's power and toughness would increase by a number, instead put that many +1/+1 counters on it. (If this would get +4/+4, you put four +1/+1 counters on it.)"


Alternately, how about making it a triggered ability for just a single counter? You trade a lower long term gain for a bigger short term boost (since the counter is in addition to the pump rather than replacing).

"Whenever another spell or ability increases CARDNAME's power or toughness, put a +1/+1 counter on it. (The +1/+1 counter gained from this ability does not trigger itself.)"

[Norm4eva]

Actually, we might want to think about keeping the replacement effect limited to Instants and Sorceries...


turn 1 - BoP/llanowar/hierarch (any 1-drop mana guy)
turn 2 - -Cardname-, Shuko.  Equip Shuko between mana guy and -Cardname-.  UNLIMITED POWAAHH



Besides that bad combo, though, I think it would make it a bit easier to grok with things like Bad Moon or Gaea's Anthem in play.  Replacement effects on static effects are quirky.

"If an instant or sorcery would increase -Cardname's- power and toughness by the same amount, put that many +1/+1 counters on it instead.
-Cardname's- power and toughness can't decrease."

[AmbivalentDuck]

This thing already deals lethal damage on turn 4 without any accelerants in combination with Monstrous Growth, Vines of Vastwood, and other clearly broken cards.  Making it immune to Dismember seems unnecessary.

As far as Shuko, that combo is certainly real.  Also see: Auriok Steelshaper + any equipment with equip cost 1 or less.

[Delha]

Agreed that the "P/T can't decrease" is unnecessary. The dude is already pretty damn good.

My first thought for a pump spell was Invigorate. Sure you barely hit on the first go, but the next swing is gonna be brutal.