New Banned/Restricted List for Vintage

[Top Deck]

i was considering this with some friends in a local playground and wanted to know how busted, unfun, or interesting this banned list.

we banned only any card with the words "ante" on the card.  we unrestrict all cards and instead we restrict EVERY card with converted mana cost of 1 or less.  this would include cards such as fireball, breakthrough, etc.

we errata chaos orb to as follows:
Chaos Orb 2
Artifact
1, sacrifice Chaos Orb: destroy any permanent.  (this includes one with shroud.)

we errata falling star to as follows:
Falling Star 2R
sorcery
destroy a creature an opponent then tap all of the other creatures that opponent controls.


so what do you guys think of this list?

[BC]

Yawgmoth's Will and Tinker would be unrestricted, which seems like a problem.

EDIT: Also Tolarian Academy?  Yeah... problem.

[A_Outcast]

Dont forget about Time walk.  Flash+Merchant scroll as well.  Then the silly thing of 4 Time Vaults, but only 1 voltaic key.

[Top Deck]

Dont forget about Time walk.  Flash+Merchant scroll as well.  Then the silly thing of 4 Time Vaults, but only 1 voltaic key.

why would 4 time walks be a problem if everything else isn't restricted.  and sure you can have 4 tolarian academies but they can have 4 strip mines, etc.

flash+hulk is nice, but would it really be that much better than anything else in vintage?

[Ten-Ten]

So, how would this new B/R list help with beating Shops?

[Delha]

The most grevious offender that comes to mind for me is 4x DT.

[serracollector]

4 x DT
4 x Academy
4 x Mind's Desire
4 x Time Walk
4 x Timetwister
4 x Windfall
4 x Yawgmoth's Will
4 x Memory Jar
4 x Tinker
Restricted Mana/Lands
1 x Kill Card

Im in.  

[ShawnTheDoctor]

We used to play almost that exact rule for Chaos Orb a long, long time ago in a tournament scene far, far away. We called it "small table rules" and we turned Chaos Orb + Fallen Star into targeted removal. Fallen Star was unplayable of course, but Chaos Orb was auto-include (and restricted).

[Mr. Type 4]

This format is probaly more fun to theorize about than to actually play.  I think i'd try to build something that allowed me to chain time walks for a bunch of turns in a row.  with 4x Walk, 4x regrowth 4x Demonic and 4x Yawg Will (maybe only need 3) we should be able to do it pretty fast and consistantly.  Also with many natural predators to this sort of strategy being restricted (Spell Snare, spell pierce, REB, Extirpate, tormods crypt etc) we should be able to do it without much resistance. 

[serracollector]

Also noticed Necropotence is unrestricted here.  But dark ritual is restricted......

I guess it could be kind of interesting.

Also MUD with 4 chaos orb and 4 strip mine is funny.

[Godder]

Restrict all non-basic lands, just to be safe .

[Top Deck]

This format is probaly more fun to theorize about than to actually play.  I think i'd try to build something that allowed me to chain time walks for a bunch of turns in a row.  with 4x Walk, 4x regrowth 4x Demonic and 4x Yawg Will (maybe only need 3) we should be able to do it pretty fast and consistantly.  Also with many natural predators to this sort of strategy being restricted (Spell Snare, spell pierce, REB, Extirpate, tormods crypt etc) we should be able to do it without much resistance.  

i think this should be tested out.  of course what if you chain time walks and they just chain balance on you?

[TopSecret]

Unrestricted Balance seems broken. Time Walk seems broken. Demonic Tutor seems broken.
Damn. This format seems broken.

However, the good part I think is that suddenly dudes would become totally playable without moxen.
amazing
thus the format seems viable

[Delha]

Unrestricted Balance seems broken. Time Walk seems broken. Demonic Tutor seems broken.
Damn. This format seems broken.

However, the good part I think is that suddenly dudes would become totally playable without moxen.
amazing
thus the format seems viable

Moxen are not banned.

[TheShop]

Restrict all non-basic lands, just to be safe .

Lol, cause blue would get a shot of roids, but shops get the ban-hammer...that is a revealing comment!

[DubDub]

This format is probaly more fun to theorize about than to actually play.  I think i'd try to build something that allowed me to chain time walks for a bunch of turns in a row.  with 4x Walk, 4x regrowth 4x Demonic and 4x Yawg Will (maybe only need 3) we should be able to do it pretty fast and consistantly.  Also with many natural predators to this sort of strategy being restricted (Spell Snare, spell pierce, REB, Extirpate, tormods crypt etc) we should be able to do it without much resistance.  

i think this should be tested out.  of course what if you chain time walks and they just chain balance on you?

In addition to Yawgwill, Pyromancer's Ascension would be pretty spicy with 4x each Regrowth, Time Walk and Demonic Tutor.  Or for that matter Spellweaver Helix.  With that many turns in a row pretty much any planeswalker will be lethal while dodging Balance entirely.

[Delha]

Restrict all non-basic lands, just to be safe .

Lol, cause blue would get a shot of roids, but shops get the ban-hammer...that is a revealing comment!

Actually, I like the idea. It pushes the format that one extra step to make it completely unrecognizable (IMO) from current Vintage. Having only 1 sea and 1 delta means you start having to either use really crappy lands to maintain color (and it'll still be a lot less stable than today) or simply accept that your splash is going to be very inconsistent.

Losing the ability to reliably cast your 4xDT, 4xWill or splashed Claim/etc is a pretty big deal. I don't argue for a second that Shops get it bad, just saying that Blue doesn't exactly come away clean either.

[serracollector]

if we restrict all non basics I cant play my 4 strip mine, 4 balance, 4 chaos orb, 4 the rack/black vise, 4 DT, 4 Crucible, 4 x Regrowth, 4 x Realms Uncharted, 4 x Trinisphere deck.....

[TheShop]

Restrict all non-basic lands, just to be safe .

Lol, cause blue would get a shot of roids, but shops get the ban-hammer...that is a revealing comment!

Actually, I like the idea. It pushes the format that one extra step to make it completely unrecognizable (IMO) from current Vintage. Having only 1 sea and 1 delta means you start having to either use really crappy lands to maintain color (and it'll still be a lot less stable than today) or simply accept that your splash is going to be very inconsistent.

Losing the ability to reliably cast your 4xDT, 4xWill or splashed Claim/etc is a pretty big deal. I don't argue for a second that Shops get it bad, just saying that Blue doesn't exactly come away clean either.

Uh...4 blue sacs, 2 non-blue on-color sacs, 4 basics, 3 duals.  U can run all those nonbasics when no wastelands are out there.  Here's the breakdown:

Force unrestricted
Drain unrestricted
D tutor unrestricted

Shop restricted
Waste restricted
Ancent tomb restricted
CHALICE restricted...

Only the expensive locks are unrestricted...with no means to power then down...legacy stac is better than this...and blue just changes their landbase by exchanging sacs....

Sry for bad grammar - posting from phone

[emidln]

Channel is unrestricted too (along with the things you want to cast it with).

[Delha]

Actually, I like the idea. It pushes the format that one extra step to make it completely unrecognizable (IMO) from current Vintage. Having only 1 sea and 1 delta means you start having to either use really crappy lands to maintain color (and it'll still be a lot less stable than today) or simply accept that your splash is going to be very inconsistent.

Losing the ability to reliably cast your 4xDT, 4xWill or splashed Claim/etc is a pretty big deal. I don't argue for a second that Shops get it bad, just saying that Blue doesn't exactly come away clean either.

Uh...4 blue sacs, 2 non-blue on-color sacs, 4 basics, 3 duals.  U can run all those nonbasics when no wastelands are out there.  Here's the breakdown:

Force unrestricted
Drain unrestricted
D tutor unrestricted

Shop restricted
Waste restricted
Ancent tomb restricted
CHALICE restricted...

Only the expensive locks are unrestricted...with no means to power then down...legacy stac is better than this...and blue just changes their landbase by exchanging sacs....

It's not the fetches that end up being the big problem, it's more the fact that you only have 1 sea. Strip + Waste + Ghost Quarter is just one less strip effect than 1xStrip + 3xWaste, and if they nuke your lone Sea, they've likely invalidated every single black card in your deck (which now includes 3 extra DT). Look back up at what I said: it's not that splashing becomes impossible, just that you have less reliable access to your colors.

Pretty much all the big name decks get their manabase screwed. I'd argue that a lot of why Vintage is so broken is that all the top end decks can consistently do broken things. When blue's tutors are less reliable, that snowballs into singleton wincons being less reliable. Shops pack enough threats that they should always have a couple in the opener, but now you're more likely to lock yourself out in the process, which again translates to a less consistent deck overall.

I'd like to imagine that opens up design space a little, and gives second tier decks a few extra % on their matchups with the big dogs.

[BC]

Channel is unrestricted too (along with the things you want to cast it with).

Bunch of artifact mana
4x SSG
4x ESG
4x Channel
4x Belcher
4x Manamorphose
4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
4x Belcher
4x Lich's Mirror
4x Serum Powder
4x Pact of Negation
some other stuff...

I'm actually starting to like this format.

[Wagner]

It's not the fetches that end up being the big problem, it's more the fact that you only have 1 sea. Strip + Waste + Ghost Quarter is just one less strip effect than 1xStrip + 3xWaste, and if they nuke your lone Sea, they've likely invalidated every single black card in your deck (which now includes 3 extra DT). Look back up at what I said: it's not that splashing becomes impossible, just that you have less reliable access to your colors.

Well, then just run a couple of basic blacks, or at least 1 shock-land. This is hardly a hard issue to solve. 1 Swamp, 1 Dual, 1 Shock + as many other kind of fake duals you want.

[emidln]

Channel is unrestricted too (along with the things you want to cast it with).

Bunch of artifact mana
4x SSG
4x ESG
4x Channel
4x Belcher
4x Manamorphose
4x Land Grant
1x Taiga
4x Belcher
4x Lich's Mirror
4x Serum Powder
4x Pact of Negation
some other stuff...

I'm actually starting to like this format.

You get Summoner's Pact to fetch ESG (green is most important) and Chancellor of the Tangle (not to fetch with pact, just as additional ESG effects).

[DubDub]

Both Pacts would be restricted though under these rules, so you have two open slots.

Also, RE: Necro.  I think this would be a good way to start a list:

4x Necro
1x Dark Ritual
4x Cabal Ritual
Every piece of artifact mana that enables T1 Cabal Rit into Necro.

[Delha]

It's not the fetches that end up being the big problem, it's more the fact that you only have 1 sea. Strip + Waste + Ghost Quarter is just one less strip effect than 1xStrip + 3xWaste, and if they nuke your lone Sea, they've likely invalidated every single black card in your deck (which now includes 3 extra DT). Look back up at what I said: it's not that splashing becomes impossible, just that you have less reliable access to your colors.

Well, then just run a couple of basic blacks, or at least 1 shock-land. This is hardly a hard issue to solve. 1 Swamp, 1 Dual, 1 Shock + as many other kind of fake duals you want.

Which basically translates to the alternative I mentioned before: Running shitty lands. I should also mention that running a Swamp only barely helps. 3 of your 4 fetches can't get it.

[TheShop]

It's not the fetches that end up being the big problem, it's more the fact that you only have 1 sea. Strip + Waste + Ghost Quarter is just one less strip effect than 1xStrip + 3xWaste, and if they nuke your lone Sea, they've likely invalidated every single black card in your deck (which now includes 3 extra DT). Look back up at what I said: it's not that splashing becomes impossible, just that you have less reliable access to your colors.

Well, then just run a couple of basic blacks, or at least 1 shock-land. This is hardly a hard issue to solve. 1 Swamp, 1 Dual, 1 Shock + as many other kind of fake duals you want.

Which basically translates to the alternative I mentioned before: Running shitty lands. I should also mention that running a Swamp only barely helps. 3 of your 4 fetches can't get it.

The point remains that blue would be able to use sacs + alternatives...4 workshops, 4 wasteland are not replaceable.  1 shop/tomb/city/crystal vein doesn't go the distance...the deck would have a more disfunctional manabase than it's legacy counterpart...while generic blue deck could run:

1 delta
1 strand
1 misty rainforest
1 tarn
1 mire
1 catacombs

1 sea
1 rav sea
1 trop
1 rav trop
2 island
1 swamp
1 city of brass
1 strip mine
2 more...possibly gemstone mine if combo and a basic

This base is functional for 3 color blue...easily.  Compare to generic Mud base:

1 shop
1 waste
1 strip
1 tomb
1 traitors

So we usually have 18-19 land here...and we get 5 to start...even with ghost quarter and vein we are only at 7.  This deck would have to run colors instead just to landsearch for workshop or strip...and chalice would be restricted...

Summation of point:  3 basics in blue are free crossover lands when building in this format(blue 8-9 direct carryover. Stax 5).  Then blue replacements are clearly better...rav shock better approximates dual than crystal vein does workshop.

[Delha]

Pls see below.

I don't argue for a second that Shops get it bad, just saying that Blue doesn't exactly come away clean either.

[Top Deck]

4 strip mines, 4 wastelands, and 4 ghost quarters should help against shops

[Delha]

Restrict all non-basic lands, just to be safe .