Alex Bertoncini

[honestabe]

http://mixedknuts.wordpress.com/2011/12/12/unlocking-the-cheats-of-scg-player-of-the-year-alex-bertoncini/

Drew Levin really gets Alex on some hardcore counts of cheating.  DCI action seems likely.

Not gonna lie, the Kira cheat was insane.  I didn't even catch it the first time, and I was watching for it.

[Shock Wave]

Based on the evidence, it seems to me as though this individual is a practiced and accomplished cheater. In my opinion, he is of the worst variety.

[Ruboonia]

This, my friends, is why vintage is the best format. That guy could benefit from a visit with his local psychiatrist.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

I guess I should preface this by saying I am friends with Alex.

Everything Drew cited is sloppy play. I am not saying Alex is cheating or not, but I do not think its as straight forward as most people think it is. I don't think anyone can say they have never made any sloppy plays, but most people dont play 15+ matches every week, on have generally 2 or 3 on camera.

[Klep]

As a judge, I am very concerned by the examples cited in Drew's article and would certainly be inclined to launch an Investigation into Alex as a result.  The 4-card Brainstorm and the Kira sleight are both particularly suspicious to me.  The first because it occurred immediately after Alex was warned for misplaying a Brainstorm and because he very carefully drew the cards he did and looked at them before joining them with his hand.  The second because it occurred very shortly after Alex had just gone through the exact same line of play with a previous Kira.  The fact that he was on camera does nothing to allay my suspicion, as I have witnessed at least one player try to cheat with multiple judges watching him.  A good cheater isn't counting so much on not getting caught as he/she is counting on being able to fluster and dismiss cheats as "mistakes" if and when he/she does get caught.

[Smmenen]

When the Magic Intelligensia (sic), led by Ted Knutson turns against someone, that's pretty solid evidence that they are doing something right.  

Let's not get the Vintage community involved in this trash.  

[Cruel Ultimatum]

As a judge, I am very concerned by the examples cited in Drew's article and would certainly be inclined to launch an Investigation into Alex as a result.  The 4-card Brainstorm and the Kira sleight are both particularly suspicious to me.  The first because it occurred immediately after Alex was warned for misplaying a Brainstorm and because he very carefully drew the cards he did and looked at them before joining them with his hand.  The second because it occurred very shortly after Alex had just gone through the exact same line of play with a previous Kira.  The fact that he was on camera does nothing to allay my suspicion, as I have witnessed at least one player try to cheat with multiple judges watching him.  A good cheater isn't counting so much on not getting caught as he/she is counting on being able to fluster and dismiss cheats as "mistakes" if and when he/she does get caught.

Just to be clear, Starcitygames is on record saying that they viewed it frame by frame in HD (why they have HD versions that they do not publish is beyond me) and Alex drew 3 cards, the issue was with the clarity of the video and shadows on the sleeves.

[Klep]

Just to be clear, Starcitygames is on record saying that they viewed it frame by frame in HD (why they have HD versions that they do not publish is beyond me) and Alex drew 3 cards, the issue was with the clarity of the video and shadows on the sleeves.

I would very much like them to publish the HD video of the moment in question then because I just spent a couple minutes going over it again several times and I still see 4 cards.

[conboy31]

Just to be clear, Starcitygames is on record saying that they viewed it frame by frame in HD (why they have HD versions that they do not publish is beyond me) and Alex drew 3 cards, the issue was with the clarity of the video and shadows on the sleeves.

I would very much like them to publish the HD video of the moment in question then because I just spent a couple minutes going over it again several times and I still see 4 cards.

Each time I watch the video I too see 4 cards.  Though, I see little reason for SCG to deceive us.

[voltron00x]

When the Magic Intelligensia (sic), led by Ted Knutson turns against someone, that's pretty solid evidence that they are doing something right.  

Let's not get the Vintage community involved in this trash.  

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

Suggestions of Alex being shady go back to at least mid-2008, when it was noted that he ran all foil lands in back-to-back tournaments he won; it prompted an article from Riki Hayashi noting that all foils lands did not necessarily imply cheating but did constitute a pattern that might require investigation (to be sure there was no intent to cheat or ability to cut to/away from those lands).  I recall this b/c I re-read the article last year when cheating accusations were leveled against an ex-teammate of mine.

While I appreciate that you don't see eye-to-eye with some of those folks, suggesting Alex is on the side of right simply b/c of your standing feud with some of them is probably as ill-advised a response as those who are just piling on b/c they enjoy a good witch hunt.

[honestabe]

Just to be clear, Starcitygames is on record saying that they viewed it frame by frame in HD (why they have HD versions that they do not publish is beyond me) and Alex drew 3 cards, the issue was with the clarity of the video and shadows on the sleeves.

I would very much like them to publish the HD video of the moment in question then because I just spent a couple minutes going over it again several times and I still see 4 cards.

Each time I watch the video I too see 4 cards.  Though, I see little reason for SCG to deceive us.

Not wanting to look bad is a really good reason for the to deceive us

[conboy31]

I feel like some sort of deluded Obama birther conspiracist asking for the HD video, but I still see 4 cards every time.

[nataz]

Just to be clear, Starcitygames is on record saying that they viewed it frame by frame in HD (why they have HD versions that they do not publish is beyond me) and Alex drew 3 cards, the issue was with the clarity of the video and shadows on the sleeves.

I would very much like them to publish the HD video of the moment in question then because I just spent a couple minutes going over it again several times and I still see 4 cards.

if you read the comments in the article, some guy broke it down frame by frame in nonHD and comes to the conclusion that it was 3 cards as well. He has a link to the pictures.

[conboy31]

http://imgur.com/28E7j

Interesting, that does look like a reasonable case for 3 cards.

[Smmenen]

When the Magic Intelligensia (sic), led by Ted Knutson turns against someone, that's pretty solid evidence that they are doing something right.  

Let's not get the Vintage community involved in this trash.  

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.  It doesn't concern us, and we shouldn't be involved. 

By 'trash journalism' I mean witch-hunting on a community level.   If this is a DCI matter, let the DCI handle it.   If it's not, this doesn't concern us.  This isn't reporting; it's accusations.   Let's not be swayed by the bandwagon effect either.  Facts are facts, and let those who are the relevant and proper investigators investigate.  Otherwise, let's ignore all this. 

[Womba]

When the Magic Intelligensia (sic), led by Ted Knutson turns against someone, that's pretty solid evidence that they are doing something right.  

Let's not get the Vintage community involved in this trash.  

Can you clarify what you mean by this?

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.  It doesn't concern us, and we shouldn't be involved.  

By 'trash journalism' I mean witch-hunting on a community level.   If this is a DCI matter, let the DCI handle it.   If it's not, this doesn't concern us.  This isn't reporting; it's accusations.   Let's not be swayed by the bandwagon effect either.  Facts are facts, and let those who are the relevant and proper investigators investigate.  Otherwise, let's ignore all this.  

Isn't that what this forum is for though....

General Community Discussion
A place for the whole community to talk about non-Vintage topics. Open to all. Loosely moderated.

I believe people should be able to discuss it if they want to; it is still about Magic.

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.

This is also the kind of elitist attitude the Vintage community should look to detract from.

[Smmenen]

I didn't say the Vintage community isn't allowed to discuss this; I just don't think we should.   

If trying to avoid a rush to judgment in a witch hunt is elitist, then I'm elitist, and happily so, and think the Vintage community is better off being above the din and the fray. 
 

[Womba]

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.

Saying anyone should be above anything certainly sounds elitist to me....It just comes off the wrong way. This is a forum about Magic and whoever wants to talk about a topic in Magic should be welcome to do so in a non-Vintage forum. Just because you think people shouldn't talk about it doesn't mean others feel the same. I know a lot of people in the Vintage community who play other formats than just Vintage and even play some of the SCG Opens and such. Thus this is something that may have some bearing on them.

[mikekilljoy]

I will be staying neutral on this subject, because it trook me a very long time, probably longer than Draw to believe Alex was a cheat at Magic. I'm known for a long time that he was a scumbag (and I have Puerto Rico stories to prove it), but it took people showing me the videos to believe it.

As for the 4 card Brainstorm, it is inconclusive as far as I can tell. Here are some pictures that can actually show it being 3 cards. The below is from the judge who was involved with that game.

I was not the judge sitting on feature matches during this event, but I was sent in to take the call where Alex failed to return cards from Brainstorm. I spoke to both players pretty extensively (that's why they cut back to the commentators for a bit) and got no indication that it was anything other than Alex being caught up in a counterspell war over a critical spell.

On the second offense of drawing 4 cards with Brainstorm (almost immediately following the other Brainstorm call), I have watched this segment repeatedly to be sure, but I am convinced there are only 3 cards.

The illusion that there are 4 is caused by a fold in the sleeve of the bottom card as it bends when he's picking the cards off the table. I took a sequence of captures from the video, which show 3 cards on the table as he pulls them up to his hand then what appears to be a 4th card appear out of the middle of the bottom card (the fold).

And his evidence: http://imgur.com/ACUdV

Not saying I agree ordisagree, but it's not 100% on that play. However, you can't overlook the main deck Sower when it was clearly a Sideboard card and pretty much everything else.

[AmbivalentDuck]

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.

Saying anyone should be above anything certainly sounds elitist to me....It just comes off the wrong way. This is a forum about Magic and whoever wants to talk about a topic in Magic should be welcome to do so in a non-Vintage forum. Just because you think people shouldn't talk about it doesn't mean others feel the same. I know a lot of people in the Vintage community who play other formats than just Vintage and even play some of the SCG Opens and such. Thus this is something that may have some bearing on them.

And arrogant for that matter.  Steve has principles which lead to better/worse judgments.  By voicing those judgments, he becomes an arrogant elitist.  Somehow, we got to the point where having principles and giving voice to their conclusions is a bad thing...quite the sad state.

[GrandpaBelcher]

EXTRA! Menendian quashes discussion of cheating! Coverup of Vintage dishonesty reaches the highest levels!



Kidding, kidding.

I also think we're kidding ourselves if we think that Vintage is above cheating. There are probably some people in Vintage who cheat on a regular basis. Not to mention that Vintage players can be affected by cheating any time they play in another format.

[Smmenen]

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.

Saying anyone should be above anything certainly sounds elitist to me....It just comes off the wrong way.

I definitely disagree with this.   Having principles meaning sometimes being above certain kinds of behavior and discussion.  

This is a forum about Magic and whoever wants to talk about a topic in Magic should be welcome to do so in a non-Vintage forum. Just because you think people shouldn't talk about it doesn't mean others feel the same. I know a lot of people in the Vintage community who play other formats than just Vintage and even play some of the SCG Opens and such. Thus this is something that may have some bearing on them.

Right: and I'm saying we shouldn't be discussing this.   This is a Rush to Judgment for which 1) the Vintage community has no special facts, 2) no special interest, and 3) no relevant or obvious connection aside from being a part of the broadest Magic community.  There are far better outlets for voicing concerns than these forums, if people want to discuss it.  There is an article on the web, and there are many special forum discussing this issue.

And, in the case of a Rush to Judgment, should things not be what many of the accusers are saying, the Vintage community looks better by not being involved.  

If trying to be above the masses in a witch hunt/rush to judgment is elitist, then I am elitist.  

EDIT: On a related note, Alex could sue the accusers for libel. 

[Womba]

What I mean by this is that this is the kind of trash journalism that the Vintage community should be above wading into.

Saying anyone should be above anything certainly sounds elitist to me....It just comes off the wrong way.

I definitely disagree with this.   Having principles meaning sometimes being above certain kinds of behavior and discussion.  

This is a forum about Magic and whoever wants to talk about a topic in Magic should be welcome to do so in a non-Vintage forum. Just because you think people shouldn't talk about it doesn't mean others feel the same. I know a lot of people in the Vintage community who play other formats than just Vintage and even play some of the SCG Opens and such. Thus this is something that may have some bearing on them.

Right: and I'm saying we shouldn't be discussing this.   This is a Rush to Judgment for which 1) the Vintage community has no special facts, 2) no special interest, and 3) no relevant or obvious connection aside from being a part of the broadest Magic community.  There are far better outlets for voicing concerns than these forums, if people want to discuss it.  There is an article on the web, and there are many special forum discussing this issue.

And, in the case of a Rush to Judgment, should things not be what many of the accusers are saying, the Vintage community looks better by not being involved.  

If trying to be above the masses in a witch hunt/rush to judgment is elitist, then I am elitist.  

It just sounds like you want Vintage to remain in its own little special bubble of Magic. How do you know that some of the Vintage community has no special facts, interest, or connections with it. This brings to light some of the problems people have with Vintage. It is ideals like that.  I think if anything its a Rush to Judgement on your part for thinking it has nothing to do with any of Vintage's community. New players especially will most likely have an opinon or look for somewhere to talk about it. Why not here, why not encourage new players of the format to bring discussion to TMD. With an attitude like the one you displayed it just comes off as wanting to keep Vintage in a special and select in-crowd.

[Smmenen]

Why not here, why not encourage new players of the format to bring discussion to TMD.

Because, for starters, it's potentially libelous.

[Prospero]

Sorry guys, but this is going nowhere fast. 

There won't be warnings for anyone in this thread.

If this is going to be a discussion about cheating in Vintage, then it should be a discussion about cheating in Vintage, not about personal opinions on how best to grow the format.  If you feel like creating a thread about the various ways in which cheating does occur, and the kind of vigilance that is necessary in order to deter/stop it, that's great.  That thread would be accepted. 

In the meantime, people are innocent until proven guilty.  The DCI hasn't rendered any decision regarding Alex and I would ask that people refrain from making a judgment until the DCI has made theirs.  Even then, I'd caution posters that this should be about stopping the act, not tearing down an individual.  We don't improve ourselves for doing it. 

If you guys want to discuss how best to grow the format, please create a thread in which you discuss what you're doing/have done and how you think this will grow the format.  Please keep in mind that any kind of personal strife that may or may not exist between you and another poster shouldn't be topic for public discourse - if you have an issue with another poster, please resolve it by PM, or by contacting the staff of TMD.