Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded

[madmanmike25]

From mtgsalvation.com:



Very interesting and cheap planeswalker.  Sorry, not much hope for splashing with double red.  Seems like it would pair nicely with Goblin Welder.  The random discard factor might be a deal breaker though.  I kinda wish removing counters had a more powerful effect....any thoughts?  Is this thing playable or is it another tease for red players?

[Prospero]

He seems fine, but he auto dies whenever Romeo enters the battlefield, and that's no good...

(He does have Mercutio's number though.)

[evouga]

I don't get it... isn't he terrible even in Standard? He does nothing productive for 3 turns, after which he might Lava Axe the opponent?

[MaximumCDawg]

He seems fine, but he auto dies whenever Romeo enters the battlefield, and that's no good...

(He does have Mercutio's number though.)

<rimshot>

I don't see this fellow as playable in Vintage... or legacy... or even standard.  His biggest negative, for me, is that he can only use his +1 ability out of the gates.  If he were able to use his -4 ability right away, he would be a very decent addition to mono red burn.  But, he has to charge for two turns and then use his ability on the third, giving your opponent all the time in the world to deal with him.  And, while you're charging him up, what's he doing?  Oh yeah, he's trashing your hand.  

Even his looter ability is terrible.  Innistrad block brought us Faithless Looting and Desperate Ravings, both of which do what Tibalt is trying to do, only much, much better.  Ravings saw play because it draws you deeper into your deck, and with flashback it was easy to wait to use it until lategame when your hand was garbage anyway and you needed a quick burst of cards.  Looting is just better in every way.

Seriously, I'd love to be proven wrong here: how was this guy even printed?  What is "mythic" about him and what deck is supposed to be able to play him to any advantage?

I don't get it... isn't he terrible even in Standard? He does nothing productive for 3 turns, after which he might Lava Axe the opponent?

I'm with this guy.

[Blue Lotus]

He seems fine, but he auto dies whenever Romeo enters the battlefield, and that's no good...

(He does have Mercutio's number though.)

People have dropped romeo for the strictly better Hamlet for years now, so thats not really a fair criticism.

[Prospero]

He seems fine, but he auto dies whenever Romeo enters the battlefield, and that's no good...

(He does have Mercutio's number though.)

People have dropped romeo for the strictly better Hamlet for years now, so thats not really a fair criticism.

I dropped them both for the older guy marooned on an island with his daughter.  What's his name again?

[boggyb]

People have a habit of underestimating planeswalkers, this is true. It's easy to overlook the fact that, in a way, they usually represent at least one free "card" every turn, albeit in most cases a somewhat weak one: activating a planeswalker ability has a very similar effect to casting a spell for free. Jace is so fricking amazing because his free 'card' usually translates into a like 1-1.5 real card per turn advantage.

But anyway. In this guy's case, though, I just don't see it, even when overcompensating for that negative bias. Maybe in some vintage sligh deck with welders n' such?

[madmanmike25]

Yeah the more I think about it, Gamble sees no play and can get you ANY card.  If it weren't for the random discard then yes, I think for 2 mana Tibalt would be at least playable.  I think it's best to file this guy under "a small step in the right direction for red planeswalkers".  The casting cost was spot on though, what a pity.  Koth is the next comparable planeswalker but overpriced at 4.

[Prospero]

The card seems unplayable in Vintage, and that's all I really care about.  I was more enamored with the name than anything else.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

[voltron00x]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

This is correct.  Just because a card costs RR doesn't mean it is automatically a turn-two play.  While this isn't the strongest Planewalker in the world (what do you want for two mana?), it does have specific applications, specifically as a late-game looter to find gas in a RDW/Burn deck, and one that you can resolve early if you need to against a control deck that doesn't have many creature threats to remove it.

[vaughnbros]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

This is correct.  Just because a card costs RR doesn't mean it is automatically a turn-two play.  While this isn't the strongest Planewalker in the world (what do you want for two mana?), it does have specific applications, specifically as a late-game looter to find gas in a RDW/Burn deck, and one that you can resolve early if you need to against a control deck that doesn't have many creature threats to remove it.

I disagree this card is pretty tremendously terrible in every format.  His first ability is only slightly better than mill 1.  And his second and third take forever to get to and could potentially do absolutely nothing.

[Cruel Ultimatum]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

This is correct.  Just because a card costs RR doesn't mean it is automatically a turn-two play.  While this isn't the strongest Planewalker in the world (what do you want for two mana?), it does have specific applications, specifically as a late-game looter to find gas in a RDW/Burn deck, and one that you can resolve early if you need to against a control deck that doesn't have many creature threats to remove it.

I actually prefer him in a control deck, but I may be biased

[Blue Lotus]

I dropped them both for the older guy marooned on an island with his daughter.  What's his name again?

And here I am thinking wasteland is the only vintage playable in (the) Tempest. Am brewing as we speak, combining with merchant scroll of venice.

[Prospero]

And here I am thinking wasteland is the only vintage playable in (the) Tempest

Kudos.  You win this round.

[MaximumCDawg]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

This is correct.  Just because a card costs RR doesn't mean it is automatically a turn-two play.  While this isn't the strongest Planewalker in the world (what do you want for two mana?), it does have specific applications, specifically as a late-game looter to find gas in a RDW/Burn deck, and one that you can resolve early if you need to against a control deck that doesn't have many creature threats to remove it.

Why would you ever consider this card over Faithless Looting or Desperate Ravings for that purpose?

[credmond]

This card is very good in standard, however not vintage playable.

This is correct.  Just because a card costs RR doesn't mean it is automatically a turn-two play.  While this isn't the strongest Planewalker in the world (what do you want for two mana?), it does have specific applications, specifically as a late-game looter to find gas in a RDW/Burn deck, and one that you can resolve early if you need to against a control deck that doesn't have many creature threats to remove it.

Why would you ever consider this card over Faithless Looting or Desperate Ravings for that purpose?

You get to do it every turn for free until your opponent actually deals with the card.

[serracollector]

I'm always up for a challenge, and a free draw/discard effect is interesting, it could be used in a aggro variant of madness perhaps, rootwallas, bloodghasts, deep analysis, maybe even fiery temper with the rise of creature decks (an it gets around MM lol).  Anyways, as also stated it could be interesting in welder-esque decks. I think this guy at only 2 mana as a 1 sided anvil of bogardan (albeit random) could find a use somewhere.

[MaximumCDawg]

I think this guy at only 2 mana as a 1 sided anvil of bogardan (albeit random) could find a use somewhere.

This is the most sensible thing I've heard about the new Worst Planeswalker all day.  And it's still bad.  Also, thinking about him as the Worst Planeswalker has reminded me of The Worst Witch, Tim Curry's proudest moment of television history.  Which the best thing I've thought about Tibalt all day.

[Delha]

This is far far, inferior to Anvil. The difference between choosing what you lose and dropping something random is absurdly large.

[MaximumCDawg]

I get the theory behind people who are still bidding this card up to 25+ bux on eBay; they're convinced that paying RR for a bad Gamble each turn plus the possibility to cast Lava Axe and Insurrection later must be good, somehow.  I'm having an awful lot of trouble seeing it, though.

Realistically, you will be looting so much before you use Tibalt's other abilities that I really think his analysis has to start there.  The other abilities are gravy; his looting effect is why you'd play him.  He shows you another card each turn, just like Bob, without the life loss -- although he doesn't put it into your hand like Bob does.  Like credmond says, this card lets you draw an additional card each turn as long as he sticks around, provided you don't care if your cards hit the bin.  This is critical- he only works if your deck really, really, wants the looting effect and doesn't mind the random discard. 

Okay, so you want to loot. I still don't see how this is better than, say, running a playset of Faithless Lootings and Desperate Ravings.  Looting costs you R to draw 2 more cards and choose which ones to discard, so you're ahead on the effect turns 1 and 2.  By turn 3, you'd be equally well served by Tibalt, and by turn 4 you need to spend 2R again to loot and keep parity for another two turns.  So, Tibalt versus Looting looks like this by the time we hit Vintage late game:

Tibalt - Pay RR mana, random-loot 4 times by turn 5
Looting - Pay 2RR mana, choice-loot 4 times by turn 5.

Is the additional 2 really worth losing control over your discard?  Of course, if you've looted 4 times you're likely to have seen another looting effect by turn 5, so the calculation for Tibalt gets even more shaky.  I guess running him diversifies your engine, if you're worried about Flusterstorm...?

Okay, well, can we figure out a shell that wants Tibalt?  It has to:

(1) Want to see more cards.
(2) Does not care whether its cards are in the hand or the yard.
(3) Cannot make do with other looting effects for some reason, or is already using them all and wants more.
(4) Be capable of generating RR quickly.
(5) Cannot generate 1B or cannot tolerate Bob's life loss.

I really cannot conceive of a Vintage deck that satisfies all of these conditions.  Maybe I lack creativity...?

[gkraigher]

I think he is a really terrible card with all the information we have been given.  But that doesn't mean they couldn't print something down the road that makes him playable.  More cards with madness would be a start.  More cards that can be returned to play from the graveyard would be good too.  

But a deck of Bloodghast, Tibalt, and Fiery Tempers just isn't going to cut it right now.  Maybe one day.  And more than likely, never in vintage.  Modern perhaps.