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Author Topic: Show and Gush  (Read 5101 times)
vaughnbros
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« on: November 19, 2012, 06:33:55 pm »

Even before burning wish was unrestricted I've been trying to make a viable combo deck that can compete with a broad meta.   I had some success with my version of burning long, but in the end it was too inconsistent and dependent on the die roll for me to seriously consider playing it in a tournament setting.  I tried pretty much every other ritual deck I've seen and could conjure up, but they all struggle far too much with either 1. Card advantage or 2. Overcoming sphere effects.  Unsurprisingly I've found landstill and workshops make these weaknesses most apparent.  So in order to win the card advantage war, and the mana war, what better than gush right?  The two best combo decks, ad nauseam and burning long could not support gush, and the existing gush lists were more control decks than combo.  However, the unrestricted of burning wish and recent printing of Griselbrand opened to the door for a whole new combo win condition, Show and Tell.  I put together a list that could consistently gold fish around turn 3, has a good shops match up, even on the draw, and gave me a good chance to outplay landstill.  So here is the exact list that I took the to the last Bloomsburg Event for its trial run:

Lands:
1 Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tropical Island
1 Flooded Strand

Accelerators:
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Opal
1 Mana Vault
1 Fastbond
1 Time Walk

Tutors:
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Mystical Tutor

Draw Spells:
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Gush
3 Mystic Remora
1 Ponder

Answers:
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkyl's Recall

Win Conditions:
3 Show and Tell
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
3 Griselbrand
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Burning Wish

Wish Board:
1 Show and Tell
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Telemin Performance
1 Tinker
1 Pyroclasm

Other sideboard cards:
1 Forest
3 Ravenous Trap
2 Ingot Chewer
1 Misdirection
1 Thrun, the Last Troll

I went 3-2 and missed top 8 on breakers.  I went 2-1 against workshops, 4-3 in games, and 1-1 against burning long, 2-2 in games.   In both games during my match loss to workshops I could not draw mana outside of my opening 7, in retrospect probably should have mulliganed both games.  In both games in my match loss to burning long I made some really bad misplays, by not forcing the right spells.  My one other game loss against shops was on the draw against a multi-thorn, metamorph, hand.  All of my game wins were on the back of Show and Tell into Griselbrand.

Explanation for some Card choices:
11 artifact mana:  To speed the deck up and ensure victory after drawing 14 with griselbrand.
1 island:  With 2 I was finding myself needing colored mana far too much
Demonic Consultation:  It finds show and tell, griselbrand, and force as well as other cards in a pinch and I never lost a game in testing because of it exiling things.
Mystic Remora: I tried drains, missteps, thoughtseize, flusterstorm, preordain, in this slot and remora seemed to be better than them, generally drawing me a few cards and forcing my opponent to be more cautious.
Thrun, a forest, and Telemin performance:  These are all to overcome landstill.
No artifact hate in wish board:  Shattering spree more often than not wasn't any better than a shatter.  Pulverize and other destroy alls would always deal far too much damage to my mana base.
3 Ravenous Trap:  You don't actually need any sideboard hate for dredge, game 1's are about 50:50, but rav trap is better than leyline, because I can draw into it and I dont need to buy more than a turn against them to win.
1 BSC with Tinker in wish board:  This was a last second addition.  I'm not sure how effective it is really.
1 Misdirection:  An extra pitch counter post board against blue decks

*This is a combo deck, not a control deck, but doesn't run ritual so I wasn't sure where to post this if this is not the appropriate place please move it.  Thank you.*
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msg67183
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2012, 10:06:34 pm »

Lance, I love it! This is what I was toying with before, but had no luck with it. I had too many show targets but this seems almost perfect. Keep up the good work.
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2012, 11:01:19 am »

In my experience playing Show and Tell at tournaments, which was long ago, (I DO have a tourny report here with 4 Show and Tell  >.>) Force and especially Misdirection were really good because it lessened the dead draws of extra Show and Tells.

You've had some luck with Gush but I'm not sure it's ideal.  The deck runs multiple copies of a 4-of two card combo and it REALLY can't win without them.  As such, the deck likes tutors moreso than draw to assemble the cards, imo.  Remora looks too slow.  Against Landstil and shops you have to bust out of the gates and Remora wants you wait around for stuff to happen.

You're already playing green in the deck.  Maybe consider 4 Oath in the sideboard.  Show and Tell.dec isn't something that forces people to bring out their graveyard hate for game 2 so bringing in Oaths is rarely expected, but works.

A single (Animate Dead) alongside 1-2 Intuitions in the deck can open up some interesting lines of play as well.

good luck.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2012, 01:05:41 pm »

In my experience playing Show and Tell at tournaments, which was long ago, (I DO have a tourny report here with 4 Show and Tell  >.>) Force and especially Misdirection were really good because it lessened the dead draws of extra Show and Tells.

Misdirections are good, but they did nothing against workshops, dredge, and some other decks in the format.  I originally had more than 1 in the board, but decided to cut them down for dredge hate.

You've had some luck with Gush but I'm not sure it's ideal.  The deck runs multiple copies of a 4-of two card combo and it REALLY can't win without them.  As such, the deck likes tutors moreso than draw to assemble the cards, imo.  

I'm pretty much maxed on tutors.  Grim, Intuition and Imperial seal are the next best ones I'm not playing.  Grim and intuition are too much mana and without gush I wouldn't want imperial seal.  Gushes protect me from wasteland and they ensure a turn 3 land drop, both of which are huge.  Gushbond engine also makes it almost impossible to fizzle after I've gone off since I can start paying life for cards and mana instead of just cards.

Remora looks too slow.  Against Landstil and shops you have to bust out of the gates and Remora wants you wait around for stuff to happen.

Like I said it was better than all other options in my testing.  Turn 1 remora usually draws me at least 2 cards against workshops and then I let it die when I'm in a position to go off.  Remora at any time against landstill makes all their counterspells, standstills, and jace's draw me cards, this can be pretty overwhelming.  The only card that is close is duress, but exposing a non basic is a bad idea against these decks.

You're already playing green in the deck.  Maybe consider 4 Oath in the sideboard.  Show and Tell.dec isn't something that forces people to bring out their graveyard hate for game 2 so bringing in Oaths is rarely expected, but works.

I did try oath in the sideboard initially.  It's not bad, but definitely awkward without the orchards.  In the end more focused hate cards seemed better in the sideboard, and ponder was a better main deck card.

A single (Animate Dead) alongside 1-2 Intuitions in the deck can open up some interesting lines of play as well.

This could work, but without being more devoted to it my guess is it would also be awkward just as oath was.

good luck.

Thank you, but tournaments seem to be few and far between lately here in the north east so I'm not sure the next time I'll get to play it.
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Methuselahn
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« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2012, 11:22:24 am »

You're already playing green in the deck.  Maybe consider 4 Oath in the sideboard.  Show and Tell.dec isn't something that forces people to bring out their graveyard hate for game 2 so bringing in Oaths is rarely expected, but works.

I did try oath in the sideboard initially.  It's not bad, but definitely awkward without the orchards.  In the end more focused hate cards seemed better in the sideboard, and ponder was a better main deck card.

I've always found with One-trick-pony decks like this is that 1.) consistency is an issue and 2.)  It's easier to avoid hate than to fight it while fighting your own inconsistencies.

So, I'll suggest Oath again.  Don't worry about Orchards.  If you're siding in Oath game 2/3, likely versus any deck with creatures, then you wont need them anyway.  If you make room for 4 Oath then you bring them in versus a deck that will have more creatures than you.   Your opponent will not be playing around Oaths from the sideboard in game 2 because he wont normally expect them.  I don't think Oath + Gush are ideal but that's how it goes. 

Gush is just a draw engine here anyway, not like in a Tendrils deck where the draw engine facilitates a storm count, or like the old Dryad decks where it actually beefs up your creature,  which is required to win.
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« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2012, 12:57:17 am »

Lance, the deck looks interesting, I've been toying with similar ideas since playing you at bloomfield. 

I'm not sure what was in your hand in the first game we played, but I seem to recall it being a basic bombs though walls long vs blue game.  I think I threw 3 or 4 different things out there before I eventually stuck jar and went off.  I think I duressed your win conditions a couple times, but I think one of the issues with this type of deck is that when you wish for something preemptively your opponent knows what you're holding.  When you wished for bribery or whatever that was, obviously your next turn play was bribery my gris. I might have played differently that game but when you cast wish it made your plan obvious so I went with duress, then I tutored up academy and cast jar.  You seemed surprised by this but it seemed like a pretty obvious line from my side of the table.

The second game you could have forced my chrome mox or my dark rit and I probably would have gotten bottle necked on black mana.  I think I still had 4 life left at that point, and we both also had about 30 cards in hand, and you were sitting on remora so I'm not sure it was as obvious as you make it sound in your report.

I'm not sure this has sufficient internal synergies to yield something better than the talrend gush decks.  Gush decks seem to thrive on getting as many effects as they possibly can out of every individual spell they cast.  This deck seems to be using gush to get to a 2 card combo and I think that sticks too many dead cards in your deck overall.  If you're gush chaining, your 3 gris, 3 shows and bargain seem awkward since they don't build off the momentum you've built up but instead go in a completely different direction.  If you have an early gris but not fastbond your gushes seem awkward because your deck wants you to combo out or hold the fort, but you're engine wants you to play completely differently.  It's not so much that either part is bad or that they work against each other, but they just seem to pull in different directions.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2012, 09:49:26 pm »

I've always found with One-trick-pony decks like this is that 1.) consistency is an issue and 2.)  It's easier to avoid hate than to fight it while fighting your own inconsistencies.

I wouldn't really consider this a 1 trick pony.  The main deck is geared to go off with show and tell, but alternate wins of yawg will, tinker, and telemin performance can all be grabbed out of the board.

So, I'll suggest Oath again.  Don't worry about Orchards.  If you're siding in Oath game 2/3, likely versus any deck with creatures, then you wont need them anyway.  If you make room for 4 Oath then you bring them in versus a deck that will have more creatures than you.   Your opponent will not be playing around Oaths from the sideboard in game 2 because he wont normally expect them.  I don't think Oath + Gush are ideal but that's how it goes.  

If I was playing in a very creature heavy meta this would probably be a great board plan, but more often than not I just felt like without orchard dropping an oath just said neither player can cast creatures.  This isn't really a strong enough effect to destroy the consistency of my primary combo.

Gush is just a draw engine here anyway, not like in a Tendrils deck where the draw engine facilitates a storm count, or like the old Dryad decks where it actually beefs up your creature,  which is required to win.

It's a draw engine, but not solely one.  Gush tendrils is an alternate win con of this deck.

Lance, the deck looks interesting, I've been toying with similar ideas since playing you at bloomsburg.

I'm glad you were interested enough in it to toy with it.  Might I ask what changes you made if any?

I'm not sure what was in your hand in the first game we played, but I seem to recall it being a basic bombs though walls long vs blue game.  I think I threw 3 or 4 different things out there before I eventually stuck jar and went off.  I think I duressed your win conditions a couple times, but I think one of the issues with this type of deck is that when you wish for something preemptively your opponent knows what you're holding.  When you wished for bribery or whatever that was, obviously your next turn play was bribery my gris. I might have played differently that game but when you cast wish it made your plan obvious so I went with duress, then I tutored up academy and cast jar.  You seemed surprised by this but it seemed like a pretty obvious line from my side of the table.

The second game you could have forced my chrome mox or my dark rit and I probably would have gotten bottle necked on black mana.  I think I still had 4 life left at that point, and we both also had about 30 cards in hand, and you were sitting on remora so I'm not sure it was as obvious as you make it sound in your report.

Game 1 I first burning wished for show and tell, which I had to pitch to force in order to stop a draw 7, and then I wished for telemin, which you nabbed with duress.  After that I had no win con or way to find it.  Even though I think I won the die roll I just felt like I was 1 turn behind you that whole game.  This may have been due to my wishes telegraphing my plays like you said.  Game 2 I also could've forced your show and tell, but thought you would also drop a Grisel so I allowed it, but that was an incorrect assumption.  Otherwise I'd say those sound like accurate recollections of our games.

I'm not sure this has sufficient internal synergies to yield something better than the talrend gush decks.  Gush decks seem to thrive on getting as many effects as they possibly can out of every individual spell they cast.  This deck seems to be using gush to get to a 2 card combo and I think that sticks too many dead cards in your deck overall.  If you're gush chaining, your 3 gris, 3 shows and bargain seem awkward since they don't build off the momentum you've built up but instead go in a completely different direction.  If you have an early gris but not fastbond your gushes seem awkward because your deck wants you to combo out or hold the fort, but you're engine wants you to play completely differently.  It's not so much that either part is bad or that they work against each other, but they just seem to pull in different directions.

I'm not sure I really see a comparison with Talrand gush decks.  This is using gush as a value draw engine, like Delver does, instead of as its primary win con, like empty gush would.

I agree though gush in this deck can create some pretty awkward hands, but in my testing I found I really needed a draw engine to make show and tell work.  Gush seemed like the best draw engine for a deck whose critical turn is 3.  Certainly there are other options that could be explored though.  

Jace and draw 7's were really the only other options that I tested.  Jace was too slow and I didnt like draw 7's because I'm finding a 2 card combo not a single card.  

Now that I really think about after being away from this deck for a little bit I think a change like:
+1 Thirst +1 Gifts +1 noxious revival +2 Snapcasters  -4 Gush -1 Fastbond
Might be a good option to sure up the mana base by removing green, but it would slow the deck down.  So this probably also means I would need more control cards over remora and some tutors.

Other than that increasing the artifact count for thoughtcast is the only other realistic option I could think of.  That draw engine invites other inconsistancies though.  
« Last Edit: December 09, 2012, 09:55:35 pm by vaughnbros » Logged
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