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Author Topic: [Free Podcast] So Many Insane Plays # 19: Schools of Magic & Vintage Online  (Read 3199 times)
Smmenen
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« on: December 17, 2012, 11:58:55 pm »

http://www.mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-19-vintage-online

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian take a look back at the Schools of Magic and a look forward at the future of Vintage on Magic Online.

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com.

0:04:00: Schools of Magic
0:34:52: Vintage Online

Contact us at @ManyInsanePlays on Twitter or e-mail us at SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com

Your Host(s): Kevin Cron , Steve Menendian
Show’s Email: SoManyInsanePlaysPodcast@gmail.com
Show’s Twitter: http://twitter.com/#!/ManyInsanePlays

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Our next podcast will be the 2012 Vintage Year in Review!!!  Check it out!

EDIT:

Also, for reference to Hahn's schools of magic: http://classicdojo.org/school/SoM54.html
« Last Edit: December 22, 2012, 04:33:03 pm by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2012, 10:15:22 pm »

Nice job with the podcast gentlemen.
I had read the old articles about the schools a while ago. Steve I'm not sure if you had mentioned and linked them here on TMD but I read them one afternoon waiting for a plane and not too long ago. It brought back some memories and I couldn't agree with the both of you more on the philosophies. While I read the articles, I kept making comparisons to current decks and it is not a far reach at all. Dredge I believe to be in the Long school. I think of Dredge as a combo deck. It has a one track mind and instead of relying on cards that produce an abundance of mana or more cards (Dark Ritual and Prosperity) it relies instead on cards that don't need any mana nor more cards in the form of two different mechanics, Flashback and Dredge.

I'm not so sure about MODO. I'm hesitant to invest in Vintage online for financial reasons for one. I have never enjoyed speculating on prices for investment reasons. I like saving a few bucks when I can but I collect cards to play and collect nostalgic reasons. I also play Vintage for the social reasons too. I find, as I assume most here on these forums do, that the Vintage community is more my group of people. I have no qualms sitting down and slinging cards with a younger crowd but I prefer to socialize, even in a highly competitive environment, with those in the Vintage demographic. I just don't think I will get that playing online because I don't get it playing other online games. My approach, as I'm guessing others will be, is a wait and see approach. I don't see alot of people being really excited if most have the same approach. Nobody wants to spend $100 on FoW to not know if it takes off in price or plummets. If it stays high there is no way people invest. I don't think anything positive happens on the MODO Vintage front until the price of staples drops significantly.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 12:22:03 am »

I've managed to firmly put Dredge into an as-of-yet unnamed school that begins with Mark Chalice's 1994 deck, known as "The Machine" with Hellscataker, Animate Deads, Bazaars, Triskelions and Triskelvaus, and tested with Deep Spawn.  I will be publishing that decklist in an updated version of my Schools of Magic Chapter 2 (which everyone who bought the first will get).  I got the decklist directly from Mark Chalice.  I'm hesitant to call the school the "Chalice school" becuase that evokes Workshop decks, but may end up doing that.  Thanks for the feedback and thoughts. 

* Another problem I have with Magic Online is the clock -- I'm not sure if it is well suited to eternal format's decks.   I'm not sure how well Workshop decks with tons of upkeep triggers will fare in terms of time management.  We'll see, I guess. 
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« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 01:49:11 am »

Good show!  The podcast wasn't too long or too short.  A little bit of fluff, but you stayed on target thoughout most of the podcast.   You probably could have split this into 2 podcasts, as there were 2 vastly different topics, but a good show nonetheless.

I've always thought that Keeper (Morphling version) that rakso/zherbus championed long ago was the last of the Weismann school of modern Vintage.  Like, the deck was  highly concerned with what the opponent was doing and then metagamed to stop them.   Decks like Psychatog were of an aggro-control sort that stopped the opponent's spells but only because they interfered with its own game plan.  Kind of a generalization but hopefully that makes sense.  I think the lines that divided the classic schools of magic have faded and that there are a lot of grey areas.  Meaning, the classic schools are all taken into account nowadays when deckbuilding and piloting.

I've always considered decks like Dredge to be a combo deck.  The combo being Bazaar and your library.  Like any typical 'combo' you need a specific card.  This card is Bazaar.  It's a weird combo deck, for sure, that doesn't really fit into the classic paradigm of 'combo' but feels like a combo deck.  /shrug

Perhaps Wotc should hire Blizzard or Bioware to build a gaming application for Magic.  These people are pros.  I agree with what you said in the podcast that the interface probably needs work.   If Wotc is willing to throw a bunch of money at it then MODO will be more approachable.

From the information I have now, I will not be playing Vintage online.  I just don't see the support from wotc.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 03:35:40 am »

So, on this idea of "Dredge as Combo," let me explain the counter-point.

In Magic, and especially Type I (and later Vintage), Combo is som ething of a term of art.   In a precise sense, we would think of combo decks as decks like Flash, Worldgorger Dragon, Trix, or Cephalid Breakfast: decks that are literally trying to assemble 2-3 combo parts for an explosive synergy that either generates tremendous card advantage, mana advantage, or directly ends the game: like Animate Dead on Worldgorger Dragon or Flash discarding Protean Hulk, or Donating Illusions of Grandeur.   Those are combo decks.

Unfortunately, in our vernacular, the term "combo" also applies to generalized strategies that don't actually seek to sequence specific card interactions.   So, decks that just play 9 spells, whichever way possible, and cast Tendrils of Agony are considered "combo decks."  This is because the term was used in the early and middle years of the game to decks like Prosperity and Academy, etc.  Modern Long (just as original Long) belongs in this vein and this school, but it is not a combo deck in the narrow sense of Flash or Dragon or Trix. 

If we go to the very early years of the game, both the Animate Artifact, Instill Energy, Time Vault deck was a combo deck, but it was the combo deck in the specific sense of the former.  As was Stasis + Kismet + Time Elemental.  Yet, probably, 30 Lotus, 20 Timetwister, 1 Braingyser/Fireball deck was not.  Yet, that latter deck is the direct ancestor of the Long school. 

Dredge is not a combo deck in the sense of being either in the Long school or a specific 2-3 card interaction.  Rather, it is a generalized strategy that appears combo-like because of its power and speed.   It's very much in the mold of Mark Chalice's The Machine.   Instead of Narcomoebas, Mark Chalices deck used Tetravus tokens.  Instead of Dread Return, it used Hell's Caretaker and Animate Dead. 

Mark Chalices deck is the direct ancestor to Dredge.   Both decks sought to put threats into play from zones other than one's hand.  That's the fundamnetal principle of these decks.  They also used Bazaar, although Chalice's deck also used Jalum Tome.    In my book project, I will figure out a better way to describe this school, but at the moment I'd argue it has these tenets:

* Seeks to deploy threats from untraditional zones, such as the graveyard
* Is often graveyard-centric, with reanimation spells or self-reanimating or generating threats (i.e. Ashen Ghoul, Ichorid, Bridge)
* Efficient & powerful disruption, but usually black disruption in the form of discard, although not always, to protect its kill 
* Includes ways to discard cards from one's hand (e.g. Bazaar, Jalum Tome, Careful Study, Read the Runes, etc).

If I were re-writing Hahn's schools of magic with this school, those are the basic contours I would decribe.  Broad enough to include early Reanimator decks, like the Machine, and middle-aged variants, like Dragon, but also modern versions, like Dredge.

Before you think Dredge is something else, let me offer two more points:

1) I played the first major Dredge deck to an SCG Top 8, and this was before Future Sight was printed, which allowed Dredge to go entirely manaless.   I made Top 4 with this deck:

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/11558_Monster_Mash_Dredging_Up_Aggro_In_Vintage.html
Creatures (21)

    3 Ashen Ghoul
    4 Golgari Grave-Troll
    2 Golgari Thug
    4 Ichorid
    4 Putrid Imp
    4 Stinkweed Imp

Lands (13)

    4 Bazaar of Baghdad
    4 City of Brass
    4 Gemstone Mine
    1 Strip Mine

Spells (26)

    1 Black Lotus
    4 Chalice of the Void
    1 Chrome Mox
    1 Lotus Petal
    1 Mox Jet
    1 Mox Sapphire
    1 Ancestral Recall
    4 Brainstorm
    1 Crop Rotation
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    4 Cabal Therapy
    4 Careful Study
    1 Imperial Seal
    1 Time Walk

    Sideboard
    4 Null Rod
    4 Pithing Needle
    4 Chain of Vapor
    3 Darkblast

This is not a combo deck.   If you see this deck as the pre-Future Sight dredge deck, then I think it shows that I'm right, and illustrates my second point:

2)  Which is that modern Vintage decks from EVERY school could be called "Combo decks."  Control deck use Time Vault combo or Salvagers or something else broken.  Etc.  Vintage decks have evolved to the point where every one of the schools of Magic seems to have the capacity of for a combo finish.   Even Workshops have Forgemaster.   That doesn't make them combo decks.  It just makes them explosive or really high powered.   

Bottom Line: Dredge isn't a combo deck: it's simply the most highly powered, modern iteration/example of its school.  And, like all such modern representatives of its school, has such a high power level that it appears combo-like in "folk taxonomy" or heuristics of Vintage, but it's not.   

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« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2012, 06:33:53 am »

I'm not convinced Dredge isn't a combo deck, however I'm not familiar with Chalice's The Machine. I look forward to your book explaining Dredges ties to yesterday. I suppose my approach to playing Dredge is the same as it is to playing Storm; I'm trying to assemble a sequence of cards in my graveyard (Dredge) or in my hand (Long) that end the game and I think those two approaches in terms of mana development and access to spells are similar despite them being in totally different zones. Perhaps I'm not seeing it the way you do. That's okay, i enjoy discussing it. Like I said, I look forward to the book that will help me see your point of view a little better.

Looking back on the first showing of Dredge brings back some memories. I can recall going to a tournament the week after your top showing and prepping for others to show up with your deck. It showed up yet I didn't play against it. It's incredible how that deck has changed over the years especially with new printings. Your old Dredge deck didn't yet have Bridge from Below!
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« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2012, 09:39:57 am »

Quote
Bottom Line: Dredge isn't a combo deck: it's simply the most highly powered, modern iteration/example of its school.  And, like all such modern representatives of its school, has such a high power level that it appears combo-like in "folk taxonomy" or heuristics of Vintage, but it's not.   
I'll buy that.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2012, 02:31:58 pm »

I'm not convinced Dredge isn't a combo deck, however I'm not familiar with Chalice's The Machine. I look forward to your book explaining Dredges ties to yesterday. I suppose my approach to playing Dredge is the same as it is to playing Storm; I'm trying to assemble a sequence of cards in my graveyard (Dredge) or in my hand (Long) that end the game and I think those two approaches in terms of mana development and access to spells are similar despite them being in totally different zones.

I guess implicit in what I said in my previous post is a criticism of the "combo" label to decks like Long as well.   Decks like TPS and Long have such diffuse routes (Bargain, Desire, Necro, Twister, Jar, Griselbrand, etc) to victory (although only a few finishers) that it makes almost no sense to call them combo decks in a literal sense that is meaningfully different from any other deck in Magic.  They aren't at all like Flash or Trix, which are very much literal combo decks.  That said, the vernacular has firmly ensconced the former decks under the "combo" label such that it makes no sense contesting it now.   While one can argue that Dredge like Long in that respect, I think the tenets I bulleted above better capture it.  
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« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2012, 03:28:57 pm »

I'm not convinced Dredge isn't a combo deck, however I'm not familiar with Chalice's The Machine. I look forward to your book explaining Dredges ties to yesterday. I suppose my approach to playing Dredge is the same as it is to playing Storm; I'm trying to assemble a sequence of cards in my graveyard (Dredge) or in my hand (Long) that end the game and I think those two approaches in terms of mana development and access to spells are similar despite them being in totally different zones.

I guess implicit in what I said in my previous post is a criticism of the "combo" label to decks like Long as well.   Decks like TPS and Long have such diffuse routes (Bargain, Desire, Necro, Twister, Jar, Griselbrand, etc) to victory (although only a few finishers) that it makes almost no sense to call them combo decks in a literal sense that is meaningfully different from any other deck in Magic.  They aren't at all like Flash or Trix, which are very much literal combo decks.  That said, the vernacular has firmly ensconced the former decks under the "combo" label such that it makes no sense contesting it now.   While one can argue that Dredge like Long in that respect, I think the tenets I bulleted above better capture it.  

I picked up on the implicit part a bit though I didn't catch that it defined part of your argument. Perhaps I read over your comments too quickly. In either case, if you don't necessarily put Long/Storm decks in the traditional "combo" school, putting Dredge in the school wouldn't make any sense.

I can see your reasoning if that is the case.

What school would you put Storm into?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 03:34:51 pm by Metman » Logged

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Smmenen
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« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2012, 08:14:40 pm »

I think we answered that question in the podcast Smile
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2012, 12:18:37 am »

Dredge is very much closer to Red Deck Wins than "combo". RDW was not an original school but I think we all understand the underpinnings of this archetype.

Classical and Vintage combo approach the battle against stack and board control in a fundamentally different way than classical RDW hyper aggro and its Vinatage version (Dredge).
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Smmenen
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2012, 01:16:34 am »

Dredge is very much closer to Red Deck Wins than "combo". RDW was not an original school but I think we all understand the underpinnings of this archetype.

I'm not sure I agree with that either.   The paradigm for RDW is the Extended RDW deck with Pillage.   RDW has its roots in Paul Sligh's famous red deck, which was more than a burn deck, but had a mana curve, tempo and efficiency element.  

Quote
Classical and Vintage combo approach the battle against stack and board control in a fundamentally different way than classical RDW hyper aggro and its Vinatage version (Dredge).

Agreed.  As I said in the podcast, the tenents of the so-called "long school" are:

* Speed.  Speed is used to overcome and overpower other decks, but especially blue decks.  These decks have a faster fundamental turn than almost any other deck in the format.  
* Maximum efficient artifact acceleration to enable high powered spells
* Features high-impact and (often symmetrical) sources of card advantage like Draw7s.  
* Very few win conditions (as in the Weissman school).

These tenents are visible in original long, in my modern Long deck, and in the Prosperity decks of 1997, Academy decks of 1999, and even the 1993 Wild Era/Degenerate era decks with a single Fireball or Braingeyser as a win condition.  


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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2012, 02:00:41 pm »

i think that what we call COMBO-deck is a group of different deck types :

- strict combo : like donate, you need a 2-3 card interaction to win

- engine-combo : all the deck is like an engine that creates a situation you can use to win. The cars of the deck are not common in others deck (cadaverous bloom, dream Hall, MOMA, maybe tps)

- mass combo : all the card works indifferently with each other ( ichorid, burn, millstone deck).

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Smmenen
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2012, 02:25:24 pm »

I'm not following your post.  How is Millstone or Burn "combo" in any sense of the word?

More deeply, the problem with the term "combo" is that everything is literally a combination in Magic.   As I've pointed out before in my theory articles, tapping a Mountain to cast Lightning Bolt is a combo -- it is a combination of two cards to produce an effect.  Nothing in Magic can happen without a combo   That's another reason why I find the term problematic.  

As I said, there are two basic widely understood uses of the term "combo"in Magic as it applies to decks

1) Decks that are literally trying to assemble 2-3 combo parts for an explosive synergy that either generates tremendous card advantage, mana advantage, or directly ends the game or decks that are trying to begin a sequencing chain with several combo part (i.e. Doomsday or High Tide)

2) Diffuse decks that are often fast, use many engines and sometimes win with Storm kills, or historically a big fireball or draw spell.  

The latter are understood to be combo, although it may be a misnomer.  
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2012, 03:35:15 pm »

I'm not following your post.  How is Millstone or Burn "combo" in any sense of the word?

More deeply, the problem with the term "combo" is that everything is literally a combination in Magic.   As I've pointed out before in my theory articles, tapping a Mountain to cast Lightning Bolt is a combo -- it is a combination of two cards to produce an effect.  Nothing in Magic can happen without a combo   That's another reason why I find the term problematic.  

As I said, there are two basic widely understood uses of the term "combo"in Magic as it applies to decks

1) Decks that are literally trying to assemble 2-3 combo parts for an explosive synergy that either generates tremendous card advantage, mana advantage, or directly ends the game or decks that are trying to begin a sequencing chain with several combo part (i.e. Doomsday or High Tide)

2) Diffuse decks that are often fast, use many engines and sometimes win with Storm kills, or historically a big fireball or draw spell.  

The latter are understood to be combo, although it may be a misnomer.  

I think I I know where you are coming from. I see the distinction between your definition of combo and the Long philosophy and why calling Long a combo deck is a misnomer.

Steve you aren't comfortable putting Dredge in the Long philosophy? It seems that the way I see it is that Long, throughout history, wants to amass cards and/or mana rather quickly that will inevitably lead to a win via a number of different options i.e. Storm/Fireball/Braingeyser. I see the Dredge mechanic facilitating the card drawing and engine and the Flashback mechanic providing the tempo that cards like Dark Ritual serve in Long.

Maybe I'm just beating at a dead horse. Perhaps it doesn't matter.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2012, 04:31:52 pm »

Again, let's line up the two schools:

Long School:

* Speed.  Speed is used to overcome and overpower other decks, but especially blue decks -- so as to deploy threats before they can be stopped.
* Maximum efficient artifact acceleration to enable high powered spells
* Features high-impact and (often symmetrical) sources of card advantage like Draw7s.  
* Very few win conditions (as in the Weissman school).

Reanimator School:

* Seeks to deploy threats from untraditional zones, such as the graveyard
* Is often graveyard-centric, with reanimation spells or self-reanimating or generating threats (i.e. Ashen Ghoul, Ichorid, Bridge)
* Efficient & powerful disruption, but usually black disruption in the form of discard, although not always, to protect its kill
* Includes ways to discard cards from one's hand (e.g. Bazaar, Jalum Tome, Careful Study, Read the Runes, etc).

I see those as two completely different schools with completely different tenets.

Granted, you can define the principles of each school however you'd like, I just don't see those as the same school.  

For reference to Hahn's Schools of magic: http://classicdojo.org/school/SoM54.html  
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2012, 08:51:26 pm »

So be it. The article you linked was the one I read that I thought you had linked in another thread a little while back. Where did you read on the Chalice school or are you saving that for your study of Magic history?
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2012, 11:10:04 pm »

Yeah -- the latter Smile 

For the first time ever, Mark Chalice's deck The Machine is going to be published -- and it's going to be published in the updated version of Chapter 2 -- 1994.  I've just sent it to the editor today, so give him a few days and folks who already bought the first two chapters should get an updated version with his deck. 

I'm trying to figure all this out as I go, but I am guided by the faith that these schools either exist or can be described as coherent principles that existed back in 93-96 and continue to exist today.   

That doesn't mean I'm right or that my descriptions are right.  There are many ways to look at these things, but I hope that my way is one of many correct interpretations Smile
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