Keeper in the current meta?

[marcb]

Let me begin by apologizing. This is my first time starting a topic. I have been looking a lot at decks recently wondering how blue decks have a chance against shops. I know this is currently being discussed in the restriction 1/28 thread. As I looked through some of the recent top 8 decklists on Morphling I noticed some 5c Keeper style decks, for example seen here

Cano Eptaovino 9/2012 (1st out of 194 players)
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1648&highlight=1#place1
and even here
Nebraska (2nd and 4th place out of 25 in 9/2012)
http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1676&highlight=Jace,_the_Mind_Sculptor

The list I have been testing is below

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
4 City of Brass
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
4 Force of Will
2 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Brainstorm
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Mental Misstep
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Mox Pearl
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
3 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
4 Dark Confidant
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Flusterstorm
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Tundra
1 Spell Pierce
1 Steel Sabotage
1 Trygon Predator
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 4 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 1 Pithing Needle

It is just a few cards different than the lists containing wastelands played in Nebraska.

I want to discuss this deck because I think it has some intriguing characteristics in the current metagame, although let me first make some general comments on the deck.



 Firstly, my general thoughts on the deck are that it resembles a big blue deck with some decent anti shop cards main decked such as ancient grudge, nature's claim, steel sabotage, trygon predator, wastelands, lightning bolts, swords, E. truth, etc. This makes it comporable to other big blue decks except for the addition of mana denial lands which function as additional lands (19 vs 16 in most big blue decks) as well as a strategy to create parody when opp. drops sphere effects and a maybe a little more artifact destruction main than most other big blue decks. Also, note that many of the sacred cows are missing, mystical tutor, merchant scroll, tinker, Y. Will, etc. I think others have mentioned that Y. will seems less than stellar in a pure control deck with 3-4 snapcasters that tend to rob the GY of goodies for Y. will. Also, tinker is not what it once was given the amount of anti-creature cards I have seen in many lists.

Some reflections on specific matchups

Workshops
   Game 1:
            This deck has a surprisingly decent game against Shops game one, particularly the kuldotha lists without MD crucible. The ability to strip lands from shops has some interesting ramifications. It gives more time for dark Confidant to draw into something reasonable, and it lessens the need to focus artifact destruction on sphere effects since the spheres can often prevent the opponent from playing his key spells after you've destroyed a couple of his lands. There is a virtual advantage in the value of artifact removal spells when you can focus them more on key threats than spheres. Also, this list spaces out the CMC of artifact destruction rather well with 0 CMC = FoW
1 CMC = steel sabotage, nature's claim, lightning bolt, swords
2 cmc = E. truth, ancient grudge, mana drain
3 cmc = trygon, crucible
            Most games aren't a landslide victory for this deck but really tight play can often reward a victory. There have even been occasional games where this deck can strip lock the opponent (as crucible isn't influenced by lodestone) leading to a blowout where stax cannot play any of its cards.
   Post SB:
            Post SB this deck gains an additional 6-7 cards that can destroy key artifacts while stax gets little more than some crucible of worlds to replay lands. I won't say that this deck is even post sideboard on the draw but it's not bad, and I haven't seen better.

Overall the deck is probably better against Shops that most big blue decks, which normally requires a huge sacrifice in the mirror (other big blue decks), but that's not the case here.

Big Blue decks:
       Game 1 (and general thoughts):
       This deck has about as much disruption as most other big blue decks. Spell Pierce and steel sabotage might be duress effects in an opposing blue deck but total number of cards is probably pretty close, and this deck still plays mental misteps and flusterstorm, which are great in the mirror. In this matchup my general concern when testing was will it get blown out by Y. Will, Tinker, and does the artifact destruction cards main prevent it from interacting meaningfully against other control decks. Here again I find the mana denial package allow for some interesting results. Firstly, the land destruction and artifact destruction can severely limit the opponent's mana resources making Y. Will in particular very difficult to abuse in the usual sense. Tinker is somewhat easily answered by all the permission that can target tinker directly as well as steel sabotage, swords, and E. truth for Blightsteel.
       Finally, I have noticed the mana denial package, high land count, and artifact destruction, makes it much easier to ensure that you play Jace before your opponent. In the original primer on East Coast wins as well as several tournament reports people keep noting that "he who plays Jace first often wins". It's the reason people advocate 4 Jace and full artifact mana (in addition to benefit of mana against Shops). This deck plays only 3 Jace, but rather than play an extra Jace that will often get stuck in your hand after you've placed one down, it uses the mana denial to prevent your opponent from playing one before you.
      I actually feel that this deck has a much better game against classic big blue than I had expected most likely secondary to the low total land count traditionally and the ability to win the Jace race.
      Post board, there's not much difference both decks will add REBs.

Dredge:
    This deck has much better game 1 against Dredge than typical big blue although still not good. The ability to play RiP in the SB plus wastelands makes it about as good of a post board matchup as your going to get.

5c Tendrils Oath (Menendian.dec):
    Not much to say here. The addition of nature's claim and trygon main give it an unexpected advantage as compared to other big blue decks with several more nature's claim and a trygon in the SB against the oath plan (plan B). The mana denial and high level of permission spells can make comboing out more difficult than against other big blue decks.

I haven't tested Landstill before and wonder if people who play it (Potucek or whomever else knows the deck well could comment on there thoughts of the role of land destruction in the current meta or at least in the Landstill shell in the current meta). Finally, I would be interested in anyone and everyone's feedback on the deck (card choices) or analysis. Also, I want to apologize for the formatting. I am typing while my son sleeps in the next room and he is waking any moment, so I am typing fast.

Marc
P.S. - Thanks to everyone for the years of good discussion on this site.

[Smmenen]

Your points about the sacred cows are well taken, but among them, I would particularly consider Mystical Tutor just because of the sheer number of singletons.   It's even better with 4 Jace.  The fact that you don't have Y. Will or Tinker does not diminish this in my view.   Mystical for Ancestral is a fine play with that much emphasis on Snapcaster.  Also, Mystical gets better with 4 Bobs, since you can find Brainstorm to manipulate your library. 

Is Trygon Predator better than Gorilla Shaman?  Shaman would be very good against my combo deck, as long as you can keep Oath off the table. 

Have you tested a single or pair of Birds of Paradise?  That may sound crazy, but Birds is a great play against Workshops, since it can be played through Thorn, and then becomes a 5c Mox.  It also accelerates out Jace, and plays every card in your deck, and you already have a maindeck Trop.  Birds can also block to protect a Jace. 

I know this is a prohibited topic, but I consider this archetype to be called "The Deck," rather than Keeper   Keeper is the name that Michael Long gave the archetype in the 1997 Magic Invitational, largely because of Elemental Augary allowed him to keep his opponent from playing spells.  But it was pretty clear that he was playing Weissman's deck

[marcb]

Thanks for the thoughts! I will be reading your historical work in the near future but until then ill just take your work for it.

As far as gorilla shaman goes, I thought about in the SB against your deck and other big blue decks but main I felt like it wasn't enough against shops, and my original plan was to make the deck as strong as possible against workshops initially.

Marc

[A.-1.]

There's no need to apologize. Thank for you sharing.

So you know where I'm coming from, let me first say that I had moderate success with Keeper in 2012. I piloted this decklist to a top 8 at a Grudge Match, a top 4 in a six-rounder, and a win in a five-rounder. I also piloted a slightly different list here to a win in a four-rounder and a third place at the NEV Invitational. I've also been a fan of this archetype since I read my first Oscar Tan article many years ago.

Keeping that in mind, I do not believe there is 'optimal' Keeper list. There is no generic 75 that will steamroll everywhere. The main and sideboard need to be finely tuned to a specific meta to be successful. Since most metas are in constant flux and I do not know your specific meta, I will have to discuss your card choices in general.

I like the high mana count to start. Twenty five to 26 mana sources is a good start in a format where Shops, Landstill, and Noble Fish exist at all. However, I'm not a fan of the all the colorless lands (LoA, Strip, Waste). I didn't like LoA because I was only running the bare-bones of draw spells. It looks a lot more useful in your list with Bobs. I originally tested with CoW, Strip, and two Waste main and later tried it after moving the two Waste to the board. I was extremely unimpressed with it versus everything, not just Shops. Too often it came down too late and/or when it did resolve, it was irrelevant at that point. If you've been having success with it though, I wouldn't change anything.

I'm definitely not a fan of Flusterstorm in this deck or in general. It does nothing versus Oath, creatures, Jace, or Shops. It loses a lot of value late game, which is where this deck wants to get. If your meta is infested with combo, I'd much rather run Mindbreak Trap since that card is never dead.

Have you tested Goblin Welder and Gorilla Shaman versus Shops? I absolutely love both of these cards. Resolving one can easily swing a game in your favor, and resolving both is practically an auto-win. To my recollection, I've never lost a game versus Shops where I had both in play and untapped.

Have you missed any of the, what you called, 'sacred cows'? I don't think I could cut Mystical, Will, Tinker/Bot, or Vault/Key from my lists. The ability to occasionally go broken has gotten me out of so many situations and won me too many games to switch back to a 'fair' deck.

I've played URg Landstill in far fewer tournaments to much less success (only one top 8 and one top 4). Without getting too far away from keeping this about Keeper, I'd say Landstill is still viable right now. The land destruction in combination with Engineered Explosives or Null Rod make mana denial a very strong path to victory.

[marcb]

A-1

 Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I looked at your lists when I was considering how to build thi ones. I will definitely have to try welder and shaman as well as mindbreak trap. I remember how sick that creature pair was in Demars' burning slaver list. As far as sacred cows, I have missed the mystical tutor most followed by vault-key. This deck has been an experiment and part of it was to not restrict myself at all in terms of tradition and see how I really feel when certain cards are missing.

Marc

[A.-1.]

I can certainly respect that. Bucking tradition was one of the reasons I picked Keeper back up. I wish you the best of luck with the deck.

[PeAcH]

Keeper made it to the first and second place in Nebraska (tipo1.it) this January on a 32 player tournament according to Tipo1.it.

Decklist just differ from a card main and 5 side:

http://www.tipo1.it/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30502

3 City of Brass
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
2 Duress
2 Flusterstorm
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Mental Misstep
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sol Ring
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Mana Drain
1 Time Walk
1 Tinker
1 Yawgmoth's Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will

SIDEBOARD:
1 Darkblast
1 Duress
1 Extirpate
1 Lightning Bolt
2 Nature's Claim
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Rest in Peace
1 Crucible of Worlds

Changes in the Main regarding the 2 decklists:

1 Decay for 1 Nature's claim

Differences in the sideboard:

1 Decay for 1 Pyroclasm
1 Duress for 1 Flusterstorm
3 RIP for 3 Nihil Spellbomb


It does seem a well tuned decklist for the meta they are playing in.

Options are kept open according to maindeck answers to almost everything.

[bravesliver]

hi i'm one of the guy's keeper nik name on tipo1.it bravesliver

i want tell you that list on the italian topic is incorrect

1) the MD is the same
2) in sideboard change 2 card i have one pyroclasm and one flusterstorm, my friend have one dures and one abrut


this version of keeper was built a long time ago by my friend marco rocchetti aka sengiro di vampir


me and 2 other friends (nik name on tipo1.it)  sengiro di vampir and ceccino86 test a very long time the deck to try to improve the deck with little changes (for example an old version of this deck paly spell pierce instead dures)

i dont like the old old version of keeper before the printing of snapcaster mage,ok has revolutionized meta in general ,but i think this card give a great bust to the deck's philosophy

in this meta i think is a good choise because start 50-50 versus all