Redemption of Theros Block

[gkraigher]

I predicted these dual lands and these "scry gates" are terrible.

This set has just become a total disaster.  Might be fun in limited, but not a single card I care to own is in it. 

[AmbivalentDuck]

This set has just become a total disaster.  Might be fun in limited, but not a single card I care to own is in it.

Several cards from this set will find homes in Commander and Modern. I agree that we've yet to see a Vintage playable other than Curse of the Swine (and Thoughtseize). That said, few sets have put more than a single card into Vintage outside of a handful of cycles (duals/fetches/Moxen/etc).

Sure, Urza's Saga was amazing, but players also quit in droves when power levels suddenly increased so much. Critter power creep is the present focus with Fleecemane Lion being exceedingly overpowered compared to Onslaught and Kamigawa-era equivalents. Return to Ravnica and M14 have continued the trend of making creatures matter in Vintage as they're increasingly able to compete with older spells (unprintable by current standards) for space in our decks.

[DubDub]

So we know less than half of the set at this point, but we know 80% of the Mythics and 60% of the rares already, and the cards spoiled earlier tend to be the more interesting.  As of right now I could probably skip this set and not notice.  I'm glad that Thoughtseize got a reprint since that was a glaring omission from Modern Masters.  There are only three cards that interest me for EDH right now: Xenagos, Bow of Nylea, and the re-made devotion-Cradle.

Too bad, especially considering Gatecrash and Dragon's Maze and M14 were all more 'miss' than 'hit'.  I guess I'll have to hold out hope for the next Commander sets to give us a card like Shardless Agent or Flusterstorm, something that can mix it up in Legacy and Vintage without breaking Standard.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Pretty sure Elspeth and Medomai are playable. Prophet of Kruphix seems AT LEAST on par with Seedborn Muse in Edric and Animar.

[brianpk80]

That said, few sets have put more than a single card into Vintage outside of a handful of cycles (duals/fetches/Moxen/etc).

That was true for a while, but the previous 5 blocks generated a lot more Vintage viables.  Innistrad block for instance gave us so much: Snapcaster, Grafdigger's, Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Griselbrand, Thalia, Laboratory Maniac, Restoration Angel, and so forth.  Scars block had a gazillion new widely played Shop robots, Revoker, Mental Misstep, Dismember, Metamorph, Tezzeret AoB, Blightsteel Colossus, Porcelain Legionnaire, etc.  Gatecrash seems to have ushered in an era of power de-creep, which I was hoping was a calm before the storm of Theros (I figured if they wanted to take on a theme this large in the year of Magic's 20th anniversary, they'd want to do it with a bang).  Unfortunately, it looks like it's part of the same trend.  I played during Fallen Empires & Homelands and there's only so long they can exclusively print underpowered overcosted bad cards before it leads to boredom & exodus.  I'll reserve final judgment till the full set is spoiled, but that guy who was tweeting about being "really excited" about the new duals was apparently crying wolf or is far easily stimulated.  Guildgates with Scry.  Big let down.  It makes the pre-reveal hype seem like an insult.   

[MaximumCDawg]

Pretty sure Elspeth and Medomai are playable. Prophet of Kruphix seems AT LEAST on par with Seedborn Muse in Edric and Animar.

Yeah, the only dorks in this set worth picking up to even begin to tinker with are, in my opinion:

Curse of the Swine - I won't go as far as to say it's Vintage playable, yet, but it's the best of a very rare breed of mono blue wrath effects.

Prophet of Kruphix - This seems awfully tempting.  All it needs is some way to turn your extra untap / creatures into extra draw, and you're taking two turns to your opponent's one turn.  Imagine this dude in a deck featuring Azami?  Truly frightening.  Not Vintage playable at the moment, but give us some cheaper Azami-type effect and it's potentially off to the races.  I'm keeping an eye on this and grabbing them before EDH makes them 10$+

Triton Fortune Hunter - Like Prophet, he's not Vintage playable.  Not yet.  But his casting cost is Vintage playable, and his effect is very playable if you had the right tools to trigger it repeatedly.  The best you can do with him now is use Auratog + Rancor for a cumbersome draw engine.  Or, you could plug him into some kind of Enchantress build.  What I think we need is some cheap enchantment that bounces back for free.  We have Crown of Flames, Shimmering Wings, and Flickering Ward, but they're not really quite good enough to get Fortune Hunter going.  Mark of Fury is getting there, but has no real utility in Vintage on its own.  I wonder, too, if there's any possible shenanigans with cards that "cast" spells repeatedly, like Cipher (hidden strings?), Scepter, etc. 

He seems sexy with Flashback spells that cost very little. He makes Artful Dodge, Canopy Claws, Deadly Allure, Defy Gravity, Feeling of Dread, and Thrill of the Hunt into downright decent draw spells on their own.  Of these, only Allure is actually played in Vintage (not seriously, I know, but I've actually seen Junk-type lists play it to great effect).  There might be an engine of some kind along these lines.

Rebound cards are good with him.  Perhaps downright awesome.  Distortion Strike reads "draw a card now, and draw a card next upkeep" for U, which is absurd.  It deals 6 damage to your opponent in the bargain!  Ditto Emerge Unscathed, Prey's Vengeance, and Virulent Swipe.

The final possibility I see at the moment is a return to Buyback.  If we get cheaper effects, Hunter is reasonable.  Change of Heart, Elvish Fury, and Seething Anger all do a pretty decent Jaymeade Tome impression with this guy.  If we got a playable 1cc spell with cheap buyback, say, 1 or 2 mana, this could work well. 

I also think Ember Swallower is a good card for Standard, but what do I know?
   

[DubDub]

New Fact or Fiction where the caster makes the piles and a  casting cost?  Sign me up (...for EDH of course).

[AmbivalentDuck]

That said, few sets have put more than a single card into Vintage outside of a handful of cycles (duals/fetches/Moxen/etc).

That was true for a while, but the previous 5 blocks generated a lot more Vintage viables.  Innistrad block for instance gave us so much: Snapcaster, Grafdigger's, Liliana, Cavern of Souls, Griselbrand, Thalia, Laboratory Maniac, Restoration Angel, and so forth.  Scars block had a gazillion new widely played Shop robots, Revoker, Mental Misstep, Dismember, Metamorph, Tezzeret AoB, Blightsteel Colossus, Porcelain Legionnaire, etc.

So Innistrad BLOCK gave us 7 cards (just over 2/set) while Scars gave us 2-3/set as well. We're still doing better than Kamigawa block where only Top, Pithing Needle, and Jitte actually see play.

The set that produced the most Vintage playables is easily ABU: P9, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Fastbond, duals, Lightning Bolt, Time Vault, Dark Rit, Llanowar Elves, Red Blast,StP, basic lands, etc. Nothing else is even remotely close. Any future set that put so many cards into Vintage would destroy Standard and Modern. It would have to be purple mana or something.

[BC]

We're still doing better than Kamigawa block where only Top, Pithing Needle, and Jitte actually see play.

Forbidden Orchard is everywhere.  Gifts Ungiven and Kataki are still ahright.  Ninja of the Deep Hours and Threads of Disloyalty have seen play in the recent past.  And let's not forget about UBA MASK.

I actually kinda liked Kamigawa block.  I'm sure some of that has to do with its timing in my Magic career, but I really liked the flavor and many of the mechanics, and I generally just thought it was fun.

Theros ssssuuuuuuucks.  It's way worse than Kamigawa.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Theros sucks?  Are you kidding?  Have you seen that card "thoughtseize"?  It's like a duress on crack.  Magic has been waiting for black to get disruption like that for a looooong time.  That card puts this set with, oh I dunno, Lorwyn for power.

[Samoht]

Theros sucks?  Are you kidding?  Have you seen that card "thoughtseize"?  It's like a duress on crack.  Magic has been waiting for black to get disruption like that for a looooong time.  That card puts this set with, oh I dunno, Lorwyn for power.

I lol'd.

[DubDub]

Theros sucks?  Are you kidding?  Have you seen that card "thoughtseize"?  It's like a duress on crack.  Magic has been waiting for black to get disruption like that for a looooong time.  That card puts this set with, oh I dunno, Lorwyn for power.

I lol'd.

I laughed to myself silently, and then shed a single solitary tear.

[brianpk80]

So Innistrad BLOCK gave us 7 cards (just over 2/set) while Scars gave us 2-3/set as well. We're still doing better than Kamigawa block where only Top, Pithing Needle, and Jitte actually see play.

The set that produced the most Vintage playables is easily ABU: P9, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Fastbond, duals, Lightning Bolt, Time Vault, Dark Rit, Llanowar Elves, Red Blast,StP, basic lands, etc. Nothing else is even remotely close. Any future set that put so many cards into Vintage would destroy Standard and Modern. It would have to be purple mana or something.

There's no disputing that.  The point I was making is that from Zendikar onwards, the blocks have had a lot of cards that are game changers in Vintage: Jace, Misstep, Cage, Forgemaster, Griselbrand, etc.  So far, nothing in Theros is above fringe playable.  Kamigawa left a lasting imprint on Eternal and is not to be underestimated. 

[vaughnbros]

So Innistrad BLOCK gave us 7 cards (just over 2/set) while Scars gave us 2-3/set as well. We're still doing better than Kamigawa block where only Top, Pithing Needle, and Jitte actually see play.

The set that produced the most Vintage playables is easily ABU: P9, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Fastbond, duals, Lightning Bolt, Time Vault, Dark Rit, Llanowar Elves, Red Blast,StP, basic lands, etc. Nothing else is even remotely close. Any future set that put so many cards into Vintage would destroy Standard and Modern. It would have to be purple mana or something.

There's no disputing that.  The point I was making is that from Zendikar onwards, the blocks have had a lot of cards that are game changers in Vintage: Jace, Misstep, Cage, Forgemaster, Griselbrand, etc.  So far, nothing in Theros is above fringe playable.  Kamigawa left a lasting imprint on Eternal and is not to be underestimated. 

While we seem to get 1 or 2 cards from every set now, we are still in an era of vintage generated by Worldwake.  Amazing that both Lodestone and Jace were printed in one small set.

[Samoht]

So Innistrad BLOCK gave us 7 cards (just over 2/set) while Scars gave us 2-3/set as well. We're still doing better than Kamigawa block where only Top, Pithing Needle, and Jitte actually see play.

The set that produced the most Vintage playables is easily ABU: P9, Sol Ring, Mana Vault, Fastbond, duals, Lightning Bolt, Time Vault, Dark Rit, Llanowar Elves, Red Blast,StP, basic lands, etc. Nothing else is even remotely close. Any future set that put so many cards into Vintage would destroy Standard and Modern. It would have to be purple mana or something.

There's no disputing that.  The point I was making is that from Zendikar onwards, the blocks have had a lot of cards that are game changers in Vintage: Jace, Misstep, Cage, Forgemaster, Griselbrand, etc.  So far, nothing in Theros is above fringe playable.  Kamigawa left a lasting imprint on Eternal and is not to be underestimated. 

While we seem to get 1 or 2 cards from every set now, we are still in an era of vintage generated by Worldwake.  Amazing that both Lodestone and Jace were printed in one small set.

I think Blightsteel and Griselbrand are much bigger impacts on the modern metagame than Jace or Lodestone.

[brianpk80]

They're all examples of format defining cards and I enjoyed seeing the constant stream of additions that had to be taken seriously year after year.  Aside from Young Pyromancer in the otherwise blase Core Set, 2013 has been tainted with Homelands syndrome.  I don't like it.   

[AmbivalentDuck]

It's hardly Homelands, it's just that enchantments don't do anything for Vintage. It's not like there was a Mishra's Workshop for enchantments printed way back in The Dark or something and we've just been waiting for a 3 mana enchantment that could turn sideways for 5 damage each turn.

Just last night, we got an upgrade to Angel of Despair for dredge:

[Protoaddict]

Except that no one runs Angel of Despair anymore.

I agree with the majority here. This is so far my least favorite spoiler season of all time. Even M14 had slivers I could get excited about.

So far I think Theros has given us squat for new playables. There are a handful of cards that could maybe appear in a deck if something else comes out to make them worth it (nighthowler?) but nothing that is going to create a deck or even shake up the format.

Granted, cant have a Mox every set, but I don't even want to play Limited for this set, it just looks really boring on top of having what we all think will be a dismal EV.

I think the design for the gods is nice if only not well implemented, I am hoping that in the next 2 sets we actually see a playable one.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Honestly, I like the "devotion" ability that's been in this set.  While the cards have been crappy in general (I do like Hero's Downfall for my modern/legacy BG decks), I think the devotion thing could open up for some really nasty spells if they do it right...i.e:

Underworld Judgement:
1B
Sorcery
Target opponent discards X cards, where X is your devotion to black.

Nymph's Denial
U
Instant
Counter target spell with CMC less than or equal to your devotion to blue.

etc.

[Kiriyuu]

Except that no one runs Angel of Despair anymore.

It's played a lot in Goblin Sideboards in Legacy, so I guess this is just a straight swap in for that.

In terms of vintage though I think you're right, not seen an angel of despair for some time.

[DubDub]

In Vintage it's decent with Flash because of the 'or dies' trigger than Angel of Despair.  We could see Flash enter Reanimator in Vintage as a instant that can dump a creature from hand, and with Ashen you get to exile two permanents before going for the Reanimate/Exhume.  Which is better with Exhume if you have to kill a creature since they don't immediately get it back.

I suppose if they have an active Deathrite they can still exile Ashen in response to an exile trigger on Deathrite.  But you still hit that Deathrite and another permanent which might make the next Reanimation attempt successful.

I mean, "Flash Griselbrand, don't pay, attempt Reanimate" is a little clunky, but it might get the job done just as well, and there would be more upside if you're happening to go for Ashen for some reason.

[vaughnbros]

In Vintage...

Flash and reanimator don't exist.

[wiley]

There is a significant difference between destroy and exile though.  That combined with the fact that you get it twice puts it miles ahead of britney.  The question then becomes does that span the mile wide gap that the angel needed to cross to be playable again.  I'm very skeptical since things like platinum angel see no play, which was a large factor in playing britney in the first place.  I do think that if you ever want to put woodfall primus in your dredge deck from here on out you should have a very compelling reason to need the extra tokens from a double therapy play.

In other words the net amount of good, viable choices for dredge reanimation targets just went down by 1.

The set is still terrible, I don't even like the new art for thoughtseize.  The black god would have been decent at 2B, but no, only the blue cards can be reasonably costed...

[MaximumCDawg]

It's hardly Homelands, it's just that enchantments don't do anything for Vintage. It's not like there was a Mishra's Workshop for enchantments printed way back in The Dark or something and we've just been waiting for a 3 mana enchantment that could turn sideways for 5 damage each turn.

This is true, but I think it's slightly off.  It's not the Enchantment type thats causing a problem, it's the "alternate" casting costs that it is using in this set so far.  Specifically, Devotion.  It is a fantastic way to print undercosted creatures because there is really no good way to cheat that cost.  

The rest of the block is just not doing things relevant to Vintage at a casting cost a Vintage deck can tolerate.  4cc+ Grey Ogres that can become enchant creatures?  Yeah, wow.  

Heroic has potential depending on the nature of the triggers, though.  So far the only one that does something Vintage-relevant is Hunter, which has "draw a card" on it.  If they print one that says "destroy two artifacts" with Heroic at 1R, for example, THAT would be interesting.  It's all about the power level.  I'm stlll hoping this kind of thing is coming up in the block.  Heroic seems like it can be much, much more aggressively costed than the spoilers so far because it's actually not that easy to activate they way they templated it.

I'm waiting for "Heroic: Take an extra turn after this one. / Destroy two artifacts / Search your library for an X and put it into your hand" etc.  These would be good.

So, yeah, other than Devotion there's nothing structurally wrong with the set.  They're just being timid.

[AmbivalentDuck]

Again, it's the lack of a Mishra's Workshop for the enchantment card type that we're really discussing. If Boon Satyr could be cast by tapping a Mishra's Workshop, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Artifacts aren't intrinsically good. Other than the Aura subtype (which is simply better than the Equipment subtype), enchantments and artifacts overlap completely in functionality. We can debate Tinker vs Replenish vs Pulverize vs Back to Nature and see that artifacts are both harder to kill and easier to find. That could change tomorrow, though.

Consider:

Futz 
Sorcery
As an additional cost to cast Futz, sacrifice an enchantment.
Search your library for an enchantment card and put that card onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library.

Back to Nurture 
Instant
Destroy all artifacts.

Both are above the curve, but neither is likely to break Standard. Both could be printed. And certainly either one could safely be printed in something like the yearly Commander product. Back to Nurture might be enough to push Workshops out of Vintage, but no other format would even bother playing the card. Fringe sideboard material.

If they printed any sort of Mishra's Workshop equivalent for enchantments, it would have to be pre-banned in Legacy.

[DubDub]

Futz can't be standard legal alongside Omniscience (and for that matter, Enter the Infinite to really throw gas on the fire).  But I get your point.

[msg67183]

Omniscience rotates out when Theros gets released.

[MaximumCDawg]

Oh for petes sake.  No, they are not gonna bust modern wide open with tinker.

[brianpk80]

They're just being timid.

This hits the nail on the head.  Timidness doesn't work where Vintage is concerned.