[Free Podcast] SMIP #30: Commander Review and Vintage Champs Preview

[Smmenen]

http://www.eternalcentral.com/so-many-insane-plays-podcast-episode-30-commander-2013-and-eternal-weekend-preview/

Kevin Cron and Steve Menendian review Commander 2013, discuss Vintage Masters, and preview Eternal Weekend.

Podcast (somanyinsaneplays): Download (Duration: 1:37:44 — 56.3MB)

Timestamped Table of Contents:
0:01:00: Announcements
0:02:20: Vintage Masters
0:08:00: Commander 2013 Mechanics
0:14:20: True-Name Nemesis
0:28:05: Unexpectedly Absent
0:39:20: Toxic Deluge
0:50:45: Sydri, Galvanic Genius
0:54:50: Bane of Progress
1:01:40: Restore
1:06:30: Eternal Weekend Preview
Total runtime: 1:37:44

Other Show Notes

EDIT:

It has also been posted on the MTGcast network:

http://mtgcast.com/mtgcast-podcast-shows/active-podcast-shows/so-many-insane-plays/so-many-insane-plays-30-commander-2013-and-eternal-weekend-preview


Which means it should be on Itunes soon!

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

Thanks for the podcast, it was interesting as usual. Two things to consider:

1. In your review of toxic deluge, I missed the comparison to engineered plague. It has the same casting cost and has some advantages and disadvantages over deluge:

+ Plague deals with all humans, eh, creatures of the chosen type for as long as it's on the battlefield. Dark confidant, Thalia, Snapcaster (the creature half of it), pyromancer (OR the elemental tokens), unflipped delvers, orchard tokens. It functions kind of proactively against future threats, too.

- It doesn't hit ALL the creatures. (Tarmogoyf, trygon, deathrite shaman, MUD stuff, 2/2 Bears, the undead army, the big Robot)

The question is which threats you mainly want to address with the card. What do you think?

As for unexpectedly absent: I'm sure there are many neat interactions, which I haven't thought of yet. One of these interactions is getting rid of a permanent permanently if you control a Helm of Obedience for 1WW. If it is a creature, Helm will die though, but you'll get the creature. This alone (2 card-combo, 1WW to get rid of one non land permanent) isn't too impressive alone. But in conjunction with all other factors, unexpectedly absent is very interesting. I think RIP-Helm Decks, which already are quite committed to white could use this card.

I wish you all a great time at eternal weekend. It will be interesting to see the metagames in Europe and the USA, as there are two major tournaments going on at the same time. Will the Vintage Championship be able to draw more people than the BOM Paris ?

[Smmenen]

To answer your main question: No, Toxic Deluge is actually the nuts.   Engineered Plague is a marginal/fringe playable.   Toxic Deluge is not only a mainstream playable, but could become a format staple.   These two cards are not in the same class.

[MaximumCDawg]

Steve and Co: Good podcast, as always.  One rules annoyance, though.  You started talking about who controls an ability or spell on the stack, and Kevin suggested it was whoever controlled the permanent with the ability.  The answer here is that whoever paid the cost and puts the thing on the stack controls it.  It is NOT determined by who owns the source.  The best example is the Monger cycle.  Whoever pays for an instance of the ability on the card controls that ability.  If your True-Name Nemesis gets flying, and you control a Squallmonger, then you are an idiot because your opponent can pay for Squallmonger and kill it off.

I mean, I know this isn't judgecast or anything, but I hold you folks up to a much, much, higher standard than Monday Night Magic or other podcasts that are just Bros Talkin' Bout Magic.

To answer your main question: No, Toxic Deluge is actually the nuts.   Engineered Plague is a marginal/fringe playable.   Toxic Deluge is not only a mainstream playable, but could become a format staple.   These two cards are not in the same class.

Yea, while everyone is busy going ga-ga over True Name Nemesis, I'm quietly collecting this card.  It's probably going to be the most expensive one from Commander 2013, long term.  You hit the nail on the head when you said that it literally answers everything in Vintage.  To elaborate: the fact that you can now rely on one card to answer hatebears AND blightsteel AND shops is simply amazing.  

The only things that this does not answer are creatures with Persist and Undying, or some similar mechanic.  I recently took down a small local tourney with Zombardment (lots of Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts, and sac outlets) and that kind of deck is not really shut down by having dudes in the yard.  I wonder if these type of cards will go up in popularity as a result?

Here's a question: is there any tinkerbot that can avoid Deluge?  I don't think there is.  It kills Blightsteel, Inky, Sphinx, Myrball...

[Smmenen]

To answer your main question: No, Toxic Deluge is actually the nuts.   Engineered Plague is a marginal/fringe playable.   Toxic Deluge is not only a mainstream playable, but could become a format staple.   These two cards are not in the same class.

Yea, while everyone is busy going ga-ga over True Name Nemesis, I'm quietly collecting this card.  It's probably going to be the most expensive one from Commander 2013, long term.  You hit the nail on the head when you said that it literally answers everything in Vintage.  To elaborate: the fact that you can now rely on one card to answer hatebears AND blightsteel AND shops is simply amazing.  

Exactly.   This card is so freaking good because of its broad utility.   It's even playable against Dredge, which is shocking. 

[MaximumCDawg]

As for unexpectedly absent: I'm sure there are many neat interactions, which I haven't thought of yet. One of these interactions is getting rid of a permanent permanently if you control a Helm of Obedience for 1WW. If it is a creature, Helm will die though, but you'll get the creature. This alone (2 card-combo, 1WW to get rid of one non land permanent) isn't too impressive alone. But in conjunction with all other factors, unexpectedly absent is very interesting. I think RIP-Helm Decks, which already are quite committed to white could use this card.

I'll do you one better:

AWESOME.dec

Looky lo (8)
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Field of Dreams

Miller time (13)
4 Screeching Sliver
4 Codex Shredder
3 Nightveil Specter
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Control (16)
4 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce

Mana'n'things (23)

The idea here is that Unexpectedly Absent is hilarious with both Nightveil Specter and Jace: TMS.  Jace did not need to get better, but now his + ability lets you bury a card with UA.  Specter, which was marginal before, lets you STEAL it, which might make him better.

The Screeching Slivers and Codex Shredder are there because I find this concept for a deck knee-slappingly hilarious.

[Smmenen]

Regarding True-Name Nemesis, I definitely regret taking the "under" on my prediction in this podcast.   I think it's much better than we both predicted.  

[forests failed you]

I will take the WAY over on Toxic Deluge.  It will be a staple maindeck card in UBX Jace decks.

I think you have True-Name Nemesis pegged incorrectly.  The comparison to Clique is pretty obvious because of the casting cost and power and toughness, but I think these cards are very different in the way they are going to be used.  The best thing about Nemesis is his ability to carry equipment, ala Stoneforge Mystic in a creature mirror match -- or to generally make an opponent's ability to attack impossible.  Cute Goyf u got thar...

Also, this guy wearing a Sword or especially a Jitte in a match up with Bobs, DRSHAMANS, Hierarchs, etc. is absolutely bananas.  He is invisible stalker + Maze of Ith all built into one card.

This card is probably fine in Merfolk but I'm not sure that deck really needs or wants this kind of effect too badly.  Since their guys are basically unblockable and they are just trying to spew lords onto the board.  TNN seems like a card that a high card quality midrange deck would want to use, like I said, Midrange Bant or BUG as a tool to fight post sideboard games against other creature decks.  

Clique is a 3drop that I'd want if I were playing against a non creature deck, whereas TNN is a card that I would want if I was playing a creature deck against another creature deck.  TNN suffers from not being an instant, especially with Toxic Deluge being a card that is going to see a lot of Vintage play.  Clique is likely to be the MD staple, but I would happily side out VClique for TNN post SB to get my value blocks on.

[Smmenen]

TNN seems like a card that a high card quality midrange deck would want to use, like I said, Midrange Bant or BUG as a tool to fight post sideboard games against other creature decks.  

Clique is a 3drop that I'd want if I were playing against a non creature deck, whereas TNN is a card that I would want if I was playing a creature deck against another creature deck.  TNN suffers from not being an instant, especially with Toxic Deluge being a card that is going to see a lot of Vintage play.  Clique is likely to be the MD staple, but I would happily side out VClique for TNN post SB to get my value blocks on.

I think that's right.  I wish I had taken the over on TNN.  We are both very high on Toxic Deluge; I think we both predicted it would be the most played card from Commander, but we are both skeptical of how quickly Vintage players incorporate new cards like that.

Vintage players are notorious laggards when it comes to adopting new technology unless there is a Top 8 decklist to model (see Young Pyromancer as the counter example).  But even then, our relatively conservative Top8 predictions on Young Pyromancer turned out to be EXACTLY correct.  If the format was larger or more active, the numbers would have been way higher. 

[MaximumCDawg]

Yeah, TNN seems just like Goyf.  Its not that he shakes up the metagame or is an amazing counter to popular vintage strategies.  It's just that he's probably now the best creature at doing creature stuff.  If you wanted a fattie before, you typically reach for Goyf without question.  Now, I think you reach for TNN instead and you will need a compelling reason to go Goyf over it.

[PETER FLUGZEUG]

I'll do you one better:

AWESOME.dec

Looky lo (8)
4 Lantern of Insight
4 Field of Dreams

Miller time (13)
4 Screeching Sliver
4 Codex Shredder
3 Nightveil Specter
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Control (16)
4 Unexpectedly Absent
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep
4 Spell Pierce

Mana'n'things (23)

The idea here is that Unexpectedly Absent is hilarious with both Nightveil Specter and Jace: TMS.  Jace did not need to get better, but now his + ability lets you bury a card with UA.  Specter, which was marginal before, lets you STEAL it, which might make him better.

The Screeching Slivers and Codex Shredder are there because I find this concept for a deck knee-slappingly hilarious.

Yeah, but that deck is bad. You need to run more jace and, most of all, predict. and this strange "ancestral recall if there are so many cards in the graveyard".

[yugular]

Great podcast as usually. I was also surprised about the low prediction on Toxic Deluge, but then again I am very new to Vintage. Actually I haven't even played any Vintage yet as I am waiting on the release of it in mtgo.

Are you planning to do an episode solely focusing on the release of Vintage in mtgo? I know you did one earlier, but now you have more information on how and when it's going to happen.

[marcb]

Sorry but can someone explain how TNN answers blightsteel? Doesn't the player get 10 poison counters after damage is reduced by TNN?

Marc

[yugular]

Sorry but can someone explain how TNN answers blightsteel? Doesn't the player get 10 poison counters after damage is reduced by TNN?

Marc

That is correct. 10 dmg tramples over TNN.

[MaximumCDawg]

Sorry but can someone explain how TNN answers blightsteel? Doesn't the player get 10 poison counters after damage is reduced by TNN?

Marc

People are saying that Toxic Deluge answers Blightsteel.

[DubDub]

Nice podcast!

For Vintage, in order of decreasing playability:
1. Toxic Deluge
2. True-Name Nemesis
3. Unexpectedly Absent
<BIG GAP>
4. Bane of Progress
<Unplayable>
5. Restore
6. Sydri, Galvanic Genius

For Legacy, in order of decreasing playability:
1. True-Name Nemesis
2. Unexpectedly Absent
3. Toxic Deluge (possibly higher in the long term if the BUG control archetype overtakes Miracles (with Deed, Lili, Jace, Innocent Blood, etc.))
<BIG GAP>
4. Bane of Progress
<Unplayable>
5. Restore
6. Sydri, Galvanic Genius

[Smmenen]

Sorry but can someone explain how TNN answers blightsteel? Doesn't the player get 10 poison counters after damage is reduced by TNN?

Marc

People are saying that Toxic Deluge answers Blightsteel.

Yeah.  No one said TNN answers BSC.  Toxic Deluge does. 

[marcb]

Thanks everyone. I clearly misunderstood what people were saying. Toxic deluge indeed answers everything including TNN and blightsteel. I immediately thought it would be the card with the most impact but I underestimated TNN.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Toxic Deluge is not only a mainstream playable, but could become a format staple.   These two cards are not in the same class.

Probably one of the few times I'll agree with Smen-hype.  The card is widely applicable.  I do disagree that people were slow to adapt.  It was everywhere.  I fear this combined with other metagame dynamics will push things father away from what was a nice growing niche of creature-based strategies.

My prediction is that this will reinforce UB dominance...on the other hand we just had a RUG<>Merfolk final

[Stormanimagus]

Toxic Deluge is not only a mainstream playable, but could become a format staple.   These two cards are not in the same class.

Probably one of the few times I'll agree with Smen-hype.  The card is widely applicable.  I do disagree that people were slow to adapt.  It was everywhere.  I fear this combined with other metagame dynamics will push things father away from what was a nice growing niche of creature-based strategies.

My prediction is that this will reinforce UB dominance...on the other hand we just had a RUG<>Merfolk final

I agree as well that Toxic Deluge is a huge boost to anti-creature SB options. The problem is that players think running a tutorable 1x copy is enough. Until the field realizes truly how tough Humans.dec, Merfolk.dec, and BUG creature variants are there will continue to be more and more players profiting from these decks.

Creatures have often been underestimated (even by the Vintage Elite) in the metagame and SBs minimally acknowledge their presence. You could call this my own bias, but look at the SB of most blue decks and count the number of cards devoted to beat creatures. It's likely 1-2 cards. Dredge gets 6-8 (as it should), and shops gets about 4-5. I think these ratios explain a lot of the success of creature decks.

-Storm

[Grand Inquisitor]

You could call this my own bias, but look at the SB of most blue decks and count the number of cards devoted to beat creatures.

1x Forgotten Ancient

...the defense rests.

In all serious, the idea that good players ignore creatures is absurd.  JoshP runs 6-8 bolt/EE in his landstill list.  That mdeans the most creature-spooked deck in vintage is prepared (in the maindeck) to fight on the battlefield.

Things are just more complicated than you are representing.  Toxic Deluge may make them less complicated.