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Author Topic: U/R Delver  (Read 5812 times)
John Cox
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« on: January 16, 2014, 11:23:09 am »

 I want to play something like RUG Delver but I don't have goyfs at the moment. I've been playing around with U/R lists that replace Tarmogoyf with Young Pyromancer. So far it's been working well.
This is the current list.

4 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Gush
2 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Hurkyl's Recall
3 Lightning Bolt
1 Flame Jab
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island

The four cavern of souls help make sure my creatures are on the battlefield, this also means I can use my counter magic offensively. I don't tend to protect too many spells because of the redundancy in the deck. The main exception is time walk. Gush is much better than ancestral in this deck for some reason. the fact it's free and lets me replay lands is a big deal. I usually don't Gush unless I need the land drops, which usually means turn four.

Going forward:

I'm trying to add as many high power level cards as I can that are useful. Is there anything glaringly omitted?
Also, everything in the deck is a human wizard, if there's anything good in either tribe I've missed let me know.
Any other thoughts are welcome.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 04:59:27 pm by John Cox » Logged

WhiteLotus
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« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2014, 12:25:46 pm »

Have you tried Clique (Faerie Wizard) ?
Since you're on two colors you could possibly want to try 1-2 Price of progress as a finisher (but you'd have to abandon Cavern and go -1 volcanic island). Also i'd go -1 Pyromancer or -1 Lavamancer, +1 delver, because delver is your strongest/ most consistent turn 1 play in a deck like this.
Lavamancer could possibly go in the side to fight other aggro decks.
Why aren't you running the 4th bolt ? flame jab just seems weak in comparison
What's your MD answer against Mud and blightsteel colossus ?
What's the purpose of surgical extraction in the main? is your metagame dredge heavy ?
What do you run in the side?
Mystical tutor seems nice to get Answers/ time walk.
SDT might be strong with Delver, but not with pyromancer you could probably replace it by 1 preordain to go both ways. Or you'd be fine just cutting it for something else entirely.
Your decks looks like it wants to be more grindy than Rug delver so you could probably try adding a mana denial line with 2/3 Null rods and strip effects.

That's about all I can think about. I've played around with a similar list a few times but I found that without green you're just loosing to much good answers (Trygon predator, Nature's claim, Ancient grudge) and you definitely miss the Goyfs. While they may have less potential growth than pyromancers over the long run, they are much faster.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 12:31:25 pm by WhiteLotus » Logged

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JarofFortune
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« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2014, 03:14:05 pm »

Have you tried Clique (Faerie Wizard) ?
Since you're on two colors you could possibly want to try 1-2 Price of progress as a finisher (but you'd have to abandon Cavern and go -1 volcanic island). Also i'd go -1 Pyromancer or -1 Lavamancer, +1 delver, because delver is your strongest/ most consistent turn 1 play in a deck like this.
Lavamancer could possibly go in the side to fight other aggro decks.
Why aren't you running the 4th bolt ? flame jab just seems weak in comparison
What's your MD answer against Mud and blightsteel colossus ?
What's the purpose of surgical extraction in the main? is your metagame dredge heavy ?
What do you run in the side?
Mystical tutor seems nice to get Answers/ time walk.
SDT might be strong with Delver, but not with pyromancer you could probably replace it by 1 preordain to go both ways. Or you'd be fine just cutting it for something else entirely.
Your decks looks like it wants to be more grindy than Rug delver so you could probably try adding a mana denial line with 2/3 Null rods and strip effects.

That's about all I can think about. I've played around with a similar list a few times but I found that without green you're just loosing to much good answers (Trygon predator, Nature's claim, Ancient grudge) and you definitely miss the Goyfs. While they may have less potential growth than pyromancers over the long run, they are much faster.
I want to play something like RUG Delver but I don't have goyfs at the moment. I've been playing around with U/R lists that replace Tarmogoyf with Young Pyromancer. So far it's been working well.

The four cavern of souls help make sure my creatures are on the battlefield, this also means I can use my counter magic offensively. I don't tend to protect too many spells because of the redundancy in the deck. The main exception is time walk. Gush is much better than ancestral in this deck for some reason. the fact it's free and lets me replay lands is a big deal. I usually don't Gush unless I need the land drops, which usually means turn four.

Going forward:

I'm trying to add as many high power level cards as I can that are useful. Is there anything glaringly omitted?
Also, everything in the deck is a human wizard, if there's anything good in either tribe I've missed let me know.
Any other thoughts are welcome.


I have also played with a deck very much like this, and I absolutely agree about the Vendilion Cliques. Run 2-3 of it. You will not be disappointed. I also have tried Price of Progress, and it is an excellent card in many metagames, especially when you have snapcaster. Notably it also kills planeswalkers. While null rods can be good maindeck, I think it is usually  better as a sideboard card versus something like Tezzeret or Burning Tendrils (Unless you really want to emphasize a resource denial plan and not be as aggressive).

I also think you should splash green for ancient grudge off a tropical island.  Play one of them main. It is an incredibly brutal card against shops and disrupts Vault Key. You also should run a steel sabotage, because it is versatile and is an answer to blightsteel. You should probably cut flame jab for another bolt or a Price of Progress, because both kill jace, are instants to make snapcaster better, and can burn your opponent out for the last few points of damage. The extra one damage is rarely relevant on creatures anyways. I'm unsure about lava dart. If it is a good card  for you keep it, although If it were me I would cut it for a price or a bolt to be more aggressive. 

 I agree with Whitelotus' assessment of SDT and surgical, although I will note that SDT is very effective against shops(Which is usually a good matchup for you anyways If you have a little maindeck hate). 3 or 4 delvers are both suitable amounts, because they flip less than in Legacy RUG or UR.

On the subject of caverns, I don't think they work well enough. I understand that you want to use your countermagic offensively, but if you win a counter war then they are out of countermagic anyway, and you've managed to apply some pressure to the board. If you are worried about losing counter wars you can add 1-2 more missteps. Adding wastelands and a strip mine will be more relevant if you still want a utility land slot. They don't activate Gush but they can also really screw your opponents over, and you have enough colored mana.


   This is a very fun and versatile deck. I hope you enjoy it.
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John Cox
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« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2014, 04:54:59 pm »

Thanks for the replies. Just to clear some things up.
The flame jab is mainly to grow the pyromancer and give value. There are a few 1 toughness creatures, but more often I'll gush and use it twice.

The surgical is to help break stalemates. Mainly against control but it can do crazy things like eat all of Terra nova's man lands. The information is good too and it works great with Snapcaster. That said I'm not married to it and could easily see it go. The divining top is there for value too, but also to help flip delver.
I have a Hurkyl's in my sleeved 61, it looks like I just miscounted and subbed in a fire // ice. -I'll make that change.
What do you think should come out for cliques?
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 05:05:37 pm by John Cox » Logged

JarofFortune
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« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2014, 05:20:33 pm »

Thanks for the replies. Just to clear some things up.
The flame jab is mainly to grow the pyromancer and give value. There are a few 1 toughness creatures, but more often I'll gush and use it twice.

The surgical is to help break stalemates. Mainly against control but it can do crazy things like eat all of Terra nova's man lands. The information is good too and it works great with Snapcaster. That said I'm not married to it and could easily see it go. The divining top is there for value too, but also to help flip delver.
I have a Hurkyl's in my sleeved 61, it looks like I just miscounted and subbed in a fire // ice. -I'll make that change.
What do you think should come out for cliques?

Whoops, I must have been thinking of Flame Slash. Sorry about that. I prefer Fire//ice in the one of value spot, it causes major blowouts, but I might be underestimating flame jab, not having tested it, so I will leave it up to you.

My suggestion is to cut a pyromancer and move the lavamancer to the board for the cliques (Unless you have a metagame where either of those would be better, in which case you could cut a snapcaster).   
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John Cox
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« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2014, 05:24:11 pm »

What ends up happening is I get like 4 lands in my hand later in the game after making land drops and gushing. Begin able to put out 1-2 tokens and 1-2 damage a turn is really nice.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2014, 05:54:48 pm »

What ends up happening is I get like 4 lands in my hand later in the game after making land drops and gushing. Begin able to put out 1-2 tokens and 1-2 damage a turn is really nice.

That justifies it's inclusion well enough.
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xouman
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« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2014, 04:13:36 am »

Nivmagus elemental seems a nice inclusion in this deck, filling a bit the role of tarmogoyf as (potential) big creature. You already play 2 flusters, you can play another one and fit a shattering spree (not too bad itself, specially with a solid 2 colors manabase). While I find nivmagus poor against jace, in aggro pairings could be the biggest dog, and against mud it eats unneeded cards (missteps, flusters or sorceries/instants under cotv). a 3/4 nivmagus kills golems, a 5/6 nivmagus kills everything but wurmcoils and a bigger nivmagus... you probably don't need anything much bigger.

what about daze in this deck? a bit dead after initial turns, but since you want to open with quick creatures it helps. With nivmagus hurts less too, and pyromancer gets some value..

Why nobody plays guttersnipe? is it that bad? worse than pyromancer in the long run, but much more explosive. just play gush and bolt under guttersnipe and you are dealing 7 damage. Against BUG it should attract all decays, otherwise you are dominating the match.

Finally, land's edge/seismic assault are another source of damage from lands. Less synergy than flame jab, but mana-free and deals double damage.
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shrewarmies
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« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2014, 06:19:49 am »

U/R Delver has been played quite a bit here in Australia (albeit only one player) and is generally toward out top tables. They have never really got the sideboard right so that changes every event. It's best finish here was second at our Sanctioned GP Brisbane event with 25 players.  The user "ecky" will be able to elaborate more. That list was:

"UR Delver, by Luke McCandless - 2nd"
Business (42)
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
4 Gush
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique

Mana Sources (18)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Mental Misstep
1 Shattering Blow

All the basics give it a good edge vs the Wasteland decks obviously and protects yourself from the Price of Progress' which are huge.
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John Cox
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« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2014, 04:39:58 pm »

@ xouman
I don't know what I would cut for nivmagus elemental. On the seismic assault note I think flame jab is better because it makes creatures with pyromancer.

Also, I really like daze.

@ shrewarmies
I'll send ecky a PM. Looking at that list and similar lists from legacy I think I need to drop one young pyromancer and add a delver. -Thanks for sharing.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 04:55:32 pm by John Cox » Logged

WhiteLotus
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« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2014, 07:43:43 am »

U/R Delver has been played quite a bit here in Australia (albeit only one player) and is generally toward out top tables. They have never really got the sideboard right so that changes every event. It's best finish here was second at our Sanctioned GP Brisbane event with 25 players.  The user "ecky" will be able to elaborate more. That list was:

"UR Delver, by Luke McCandless - 2nd"
Business (42)
4 Force of Will
2 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
3 Flusterstorm
1 Steel Sabotage
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress
4 Gush
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique

Mana Sources (18)
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
6 Island
2 Mountain

Sideboard (15)
4 Ingot Chewer
4 Grafdigger’s Cage
2 Spell Pierce
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Shattering Spree
1 Mental Misstep
1 Shattering Blow

All the basics give it a good edge vs the Wasteland decks obviously and protects yourself from the Price of Progress' which are huge.

That list looks about right, although I don't really understand why you'd want to run more flusters than missteps, unless you have Nivmagus elemental? I would suggest a slightly different permission package especially with 3 Snapcaster Mages. Something like this maybe:

4 Force of Will
3 Mental Misstep
2 Flusterstorm
1/2 Spell Snare
1/2 Spell Pierce
1/2 Steel Sabotage

Also, the sideboard is really weak against dredge (which is one this deck's worst match up), grafdifgger's cage is the easiest form of hate to deal with for Dredge. They usually pack missteps, ingot chewers and nature's claim between the main and side nowadays. Ravenous trap and Surgical Extraction are probably the most difficult forms or hate for dredge to deal with that you have access to in U/R. Maybe something more along these lines:

Sideboard (15)
4 Ingot Chewer
3 Grafdigger’s Cage
3 Ravenous trap
2 Steel sabotage
1 Surgical extraction
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 shattering spree/ Pyroblast

Maybe this deck could capitalize on running basics with something like magus of the moon in the side. It would be great against dredge/workshops/oath although it's too expensive to be effective.
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JarofFortune
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« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2014, 12:11:44 pm »



what about daze in this deck? a bit dead after initial turns, but since you want to open with quick creatures it helps. With nivmagus hurts less too, and pyromancer gets some value..

Why nobody plays guttersnipe? is it that bad? worse than pyromancer in the long run, but much more explosive. just play gush and bolt under guttersnipe and you are dealing 7 damage. Against BUG it should attract all decays, otherwise you are dominating the match.


I don't like daze a lot unless you are really leaning on a mana denial plan with wastelands and null rods. Otherwise its mostly invalidated by their artifact mana.

I tested guttersnipe in this deck, and it was not that impressive. It was slow, and rarely does anything when it comes down(In many games this deck will have to work with very little mana). Clique was a much better card for me in the three drop spot.

If anyone is interested, running one or two electrolyze in the board helps a lot with creature based matchups.
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Soly
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« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2014, 09:46:07 am »

I'd like to point out that less than 3 Preordain in a Delver list often slows it down.  I tested UR, and found that the stability it offered wasn't really worth cutting to 2 colors.   I added Black, and you can find the Grixis Delver list floating around.

As for Cavern of Souls:  I don't see this being necessary, and I see it really devaluing your Gushes.  Delver decks have one really nice thing going for them... their creatures are almost all expendable.  What I mean is, I will almost never fight if my opponent wants to counter a creature of mine, because they're down a card (or two, if it's Force of Will) while I can just replace it with whatever other creature I have.
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John Cox
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« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2014, 03:17:41 am »

I'm going away from the cavern plan more and more. I currently have just one cavern in my list as a mise and because more than one isn't so amazing. I tried a grixis list and found that all the broken stuff was not what the deck wanted (my list was different than yours). I want to make more of an "unbroken" list that maximizes the ways of interacting with the opponent. The idea behind cavern was that I wouldn't spend my counter on defensively and then would have more interaction in a meaningful way. But as I said I'm drifting away from that.

This is my current list

3 Young Pyromancer
3 vendilion clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
4 Gush
2 Preordain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
2 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Pierce
1 Hurkyl's Recall
4 Lightning Bolt
1 fire // ice
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Black Lotus
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Island
1 Mountain
2 Volcanic Island

All the creatures are wizards.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 03:54:14 am by John Cox » Logged

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