[jou] triton shorestalker

[gkraigher]

The rogue deck sure does lose to dark blast.  Like a fiery train wreck.  Yikes.  I was just thinking the deck wanted some number of mental missteps, but yeah, talk about silver bullet. 

[JarofFortune]

These are meant to be paired with Bident of Thassa and Military Intelligence. In Standard. It's only possibly playable in Modern, modern.

There is no possible way this card will see play in modern. I can't think of any deck in that format that would run this card.

The rogue deck sure does lose to dark blast.  Like a fiery train wreck.  Yikes.  I was just thinking the deck wanted some number of mental missteps, but yeah, talk about silver bullet.  

The same can be said of Delver decks with Pyromancer, but they remain popular. Darkblast sees so little play that I wouldn't worry about it.

Playing bad cards to make other marginal cards better is not typically a great strategy unless you do something like win the game turn 2 like dredge.

1/1 for U unblockable is marginal at best and god awful all the rest of the time on its own, so your really banking on the earwig plan, which is also unplayable without support. Blackguard is sorta a lord but a fairly weak one with out support. Your whole deck pretty much falls apart to a single darkblast.

Tell me, why is earwig so good with this thing that it is worth playing an otherwise marginal card, while in the mean time there are decks that are literally just playing mana sources and broken cards?

Earwig can be insane against many decks. For example, against Oath Control, the ability will take out both griselbrands and the voltaic key. That leaves them with Jace as their only win con, which, conveniently, is not getting to ultimate against a board of creatures. Not to mention that you can play the prowl cost off a cavern of souls.

However, Earwig does need support, but I think Goblins, the other earwig deck, has a higher average quality of creatures, at the cost of losing the ability to run FoW.

Shorestalker doesn't solve the problems the rogue deck has to fix to become a top competitor. It probably will get the tools it needs eventually, but that time is not now.  

The card replaces True-Name nemesis, simply because it is cheaper.

     
 
This is simply not true, Having played probably more than 100 test games against Merfolk playing Rug, I can tell you that the very threat of TNN being cast is a serious issue throughout most stages of the game. The fact that they might cast the card changes my lines of play and how I approach certain situations.

Versus Combo, it doesn't really make much of a difference, because Merfolk is probably favored anyways. Versus Midrange and Control, True-name is excellent in most board situations past turn 3, and is much better at forcing the opponent to find an answer or race.

Versus Shops, despite being 3 mana, True-name will generally be better. A 1/1 isn't worth it. Cursecatcher is good enough versus the rest of the field that you will run it regardless, similar to misstep.

If you are playing a MUD opponent and have a choice between shorestalker or cursecatcher on turn 1, shorestalker gets the nod.

Correct, but you said earlier that shorestalker would replace TNN, not cursecatcher.

  Same situation vs. Dredge.

Umm, no. Dredge is among the most mana light decks in the format, and cursecatcher is a real problem for dredge to deal with, especially when protecting hate post board.
 
 

Same situation vs. Goblins, White Hate Bears,

Yes, two very fringe decks.


 

heck even Oath of Druids can play without Islands on the board and maybe this card pushes through a Grislebrand and no island board.  (I'm definitely drawing a short straw in the Oath argument.)

Cursecatcher is much better at stopping Griselbrand from coming into play in the first place. There are many situations where it can back up a daze or Force on their oath, and disrupts their tutoring and cantripping.

In vintage, you run wastelands and strip mine, so no islands on your opponent's side can be a thing. 

IF that happens, you are probably in good shape anyways. I would rather have a true-name in most cases.

[gkraigher]

JarofFortune, I run triton shorestalker in modern merfolk with great success.  It helps curve out, and since you don't always draw spreading seas (I've actually moved 2 to the board and kept 2 main because it is only great vs tron) this little guy pushes through for wins when the board starts to get clogged up.  Before I started playing this card a few weeks ago, I was running 2 cosi's trickster and 1 master of waves instead of 3 of them.  I still run a master of waves, but like the math from the OP, this card does more damage by the time master of waves would come down that they are effectively the same card in the matchups you would want them for.  So I went with the cheaper option because merfolk is a damage racing deck and it also allows me to keep my aether viles on a lower count the entire game.  Regardless, this is a tangent post that has no applications to vintage, but it reveals where my bias comes from that I think this card is good in merfolk.  When it probably is terrible in vintage folk.  

I liked the rest of the stuff you had to say.  

[Protoaddict]

If a rogue list like you propose ever saw play, rest assured dark blasts would come in and adjust the meta really quick. The reason you dont see them now is because of the lack of targets because the meta knew to shift away from decks that die to dark blast in the first place because it is so good at doing what it does. Pyromancer and Delver don't really factor in because A) enough counter magic to stop it before it affects tempo and B) they can do it all at once pretty often making more targets than you have draws, rogues does not however do that.

But also remember that a deck that wants to slam down multiple 1 toughness dudes is also going to get smacked by Fire from fire//ice as well and that certainly sees play along side plenty of 1 for 1 removal that will leave you stranded with dead cards in hand or on board. If my opponent bolts my Dark confidant or Deathrite Shaman, it does not make my Vendilion Clique worse or in earwig squads case, unplayable.

There are very few cards in vintage that see any play that require another card to do anything. Timevault is maybe the only one, and that combo wins you the game, and voltaic key in a pinch can generate mana or fix your moxen or whatever. Both turn on your Opal. Earwig squad in hand does literally nothing and you basically if not actually cant cast it without prowl.

If this dude was 2/1 unblockable for 1, MAYBE he would see play, if only because then he could attack into your opponents dudes with some tempo when backed up with other dudes. but 1/1 for 1 unblockable is basically just unplayable.

[JarofFortune]

A) enough counter magic to stop it before it affects tempo and B) they can do it all at once pretty often making more targets than you have draws, rogues does not however do that.

Have you ever played against Darkblast with Delver?  My current list runs Tarmogoyfs as opposed to Pyromancers, and Darkblast is still a huge pain when I have to play against it, often losing me the game or setting me back very far. You seem to think of Delver as some sort of Sligh deck with Counterspells that can just swarm the board with guys, when this is not, and has never been the case. Believe it or not, creatures do take some time to kill the opponent, and every counterspell you blow on a dark blast is a counter spell you can't use on their threats.

[MaximumCDawg]

Protoaddict makes a good point: they have printed so many creatures that are bonkers good all alone that there is very little justification for running creatures who are good because they have synergy with other creatures.  Yes, Merfolk won Vintage Champs, but would you really swap any of the creatures in that list for a 1/1 unblockable?  And more to the point, what has Merfolk done since then to demonstrate it wasn't just a good metagame choice that particular day?

You put Shorestalker's ability on a 1 casting cost sliver, and now we're talking.

[TheWhiteDragon]

Darkblast = invisible stalker/silhana ledgewalker better than shorestalker.  Any rogue deck should be UBG and not run shorestalker anyway.

[serracollector]

Isn't there already a 1 drop sliver that gives them all flying?  Yea......

[Protoaddict]

A) enough counter magic to stop it before it affects tempo and B) they can do it all at once pretty often making more targets than you have draws, rogues does not however do that.

Have you ever played against Darkblast with Delver?  My current list runs Tarmogoyfs as opposed to Pyromancers, and Darkblast is still a huge pain when I have to play against it, often losing me the game or setting me back very far. You seem to think of Delver as some sort of Sligh deck with Counterspells that can just swarm the board with guys, when this is not, and has never been the case. Believe it or not, creatures do take some time to kill the opponent, and every counterspell you blow on a dark blast is a counter spell you can't use on their threats.

You don't need to protect every threat, just enough of them, and the act of protecting them often creates more if you have a Pyromancer on play. I'm not saying delver is some blazingly fast aggro deck, but it does run Misstep for this very reason.

Also, keep in mind that delver gets out of DB range when flipped, and if I make like 2-3 tokens when i play pyromancer every time you play darkblast your basically spending a card to do so.

Darkblast is best when it takes out one creatures and then can threaten theirs, or when it can take a piece of a combo like welder offline which is what I equate the rogues deck to. If you just want to remove tempo based threats like those from delver your are almost certainly better off using a board wipe like Pyroclasm or Toxic Deluge, both of which just also happen to be viable answers to rogues.