Possible Anti-Shop Card Colorless - Porcelain Legionnaire

[desolutionist]

I was thinking about what cards UW decks could use against workshops, and I thought this could be a possibility as a way of slowing down their offense in order to develop more mana.  Stops Revoker, Golem, Mutavault, and Factory from being any clock and can be used to go on the offense as well.  Its a creature artifact so unaffected by Golem and Thorn of Amethyst; Also Chalice in most cases

[enderfall]

Legionnaire is a pretty useful card given that it has First Strike. That alone gives it legs against other decks as an additional threat in the SB. However, if the goal is to shore up the Shops match-up with a single card, isn't Kataki simply better? Legionnaire is slightly easier to cast, but Kataki has a chance to wipe almost their entire board. Also, Shops can Metamorph Legionnaire... that's not something they can do with Kataki.

I'm just spit balling here. Maybe Legionnaire is in fact better, but Kataki seems more versatile.

[MaximumCDawg]

You can.  I have.  It's fine.

I had this silly WB mana denial / weenie deck I put this guy into, and he was great as a way to diversify the creatires.  I built the deck such that almost every card killed artifacts.  It was hilarious, but not really general purpose.  (I had gotten tired of shops)

[fsecco]

This has been used before and depends on your meta. Legionnaire is not that good against Kuldotha. But when traditional Golem shops dominated, this guy would see sideboard here and there. It's probably ok against Terra Nova too.

[enderfall]

It's probably ok against Terra Nova too.

I keep forgetting that Terra Nova is a thing these days. Against that version of Shops, Legionnaire is way better than Kataki.

[fsecco]

It's probably ok against Terra Nova too.

I keep forgetting that Terra Nova is a thing these days. Against that version of Shops, Legionnaire is way better than Kataki.

Yep. My problem with Legionnaire right now is that it does close to nothing against Forgemaster. So I don't think you want to waste MUD SB Slots with a card that doesn't hit all MUD variants.

[JarofFortune]

It's probably ok against Terra Nova too.

I keep forgetting that Terra Nova is a thing these days. Against that version of Shops, Legionnaire is way better than Kataki.

Yep. My problem with Legionnaire right now is that it does close to nothing against Forgemaster. So I don't think you want to waste MUD SB Slots with a card that doesn't hit all MUD variants.

Except that Legionnaire does have utility against Kuldotha. Look at Martello lists, you see them having 4 lodestone, 4 revoker, and 4 factory in cavernless builds. Since the op was talking about blue decks, I assume that he is not trying to win by beating down the Workshop player. Thus, legionnaire is a tool that can buy time. It acts as a moat against all of the cards i mentioned. Now yes, it does nothing against forgemaster itself, but you shouldn't be relying on legionnaire alone. Legionnaire should be a tool to be used alongside shatter effects, which incidentally shore up its biggest weakness: Forgemaster. 


I don't think Kataki is nearly as good if this is a blue deck, because it taxes your own artifact mana, which you desperately need against Shops.

[fsecco]

Yeah, yeah, I know why Legionnaire is good. It's also a creature so it dodges Thorn of Amethyst. But I don't know... doesn't every color have better hate than it?

What I was trying to say in my first answer here is: this is far from new tech, and yes, you can play it to great effect. I'd say you could even play it in MUD sideboards against other MUDs.

[xouman]

Legionnaire is good depending on your approach, and of course on MUD's configuration. I'm pretty afraid of golem  (and that's a very good reason to run legionnaire), but also to hellkite and kuldotha.

I played kataki for some months and got quite unhappy with it. In builds with more than 8 artifacts kataki is just stupid (that's what happens when you half-copy lists without thinking). Serenity also feels the same lots of times, specially facing wurmcoil and factories. However something as stupid as disenchant can be a decent card.

[vaughnbros]

This is good against terranova as it gets under spheres and stops their aggro plan, but it's rather underwhelming against the shops decks with bigger impact spells, like Forgemaster and smokestack.

[desolutionist]

Yeah, yeah, I know why Legionnaire is good. It's also a creature so it dodges Thorn of Amethyst. But I don't know... doesn't every color have better hate than it?

Ingot Chewer is ideal, but only in red.  White has Dispeller's Capsule at 1 and Disenchant at 2.  Swords to Plowshares is the favorite but affected by Lodestone, Thorn, and Chalice.

[Stormanimagus]

Yeah, yeah, I know why Legionnaire is good. It's also a creature so it dodges Thorn of Amethyst. But I don't know... doesn't every color have better hate than it?

Ingot Chewer is ideal, but only in red.  White has Dispeller's Capsule at 1 and Disenchant at 2.  Swords to Plowshares is the favorite but affected by Lodestone, Thorn, and Chalice.

I'm a fan of 1 of two options for non-red blue based decks (which I assume to be the ideal build for UW or Esper Mentor decks)

1. Engineered Explosives - This can play around spheres and has added value vs. little dudes.dec

2. 4 Polluted Delta + Basic Swamp + 3-4 Snuff Out + 2-3 Deathrite Shaman to go along with the 3-4 hurks you should already be running after sb when playing mentor.dec - This approach is actually one I really like right now as I think Deathrite Shaman has decent utility outside of the Shops matchup as well. I'm not sure which cards in this package go in the maindeck and which go in the SB. That would require more testing. I do think an Esper Mentor Control list with Time Vault and Mystic Remora could end up being ideal.

-Storm

[brianpk80]

The best point of comparison here is Stoneforge Mystic.  There are pros and cons vis-a-vis Porcelain.  The latter is less space consuming and consistently easier to put into play.  It also eschews interference from Revoker and disruption from Wasteland on Tundra (or Strip Mine on Plains).  On the other hand, Stoneforge is much stronger when functioning particularly against Tangle Wire.  There's an argument to be made for either, but given the breadth of SfM's applicability to other matches and strength in the Shops match, I'd go with her.  That said, Porcelain is an option for a deck not running white.  

[fsecco]

If we start on 1W cards, I think there are a lot of cards better than Legionnaire. Disenchant is one of them. The upside of Legionnaire is that it can be played in any deck, even non-white. I don't know if that's relevant (since almost every color has better cards, except MUD itself).

[diopter]

A good comparable is Baleful Strix. Set aside non-Shop matchups for now: Baleful Strix is "easy" to cast in the way that really good first-line Shop defence cards are. It didn't deal with any of the problem cards but it could often buy you a third of the time needed to get to six mana and punching through Dack.

I'm assuming the follow-up to Porcellan Legionnaire might be... Serenity? What's the follow-up to Serenity?

The nice thing about Brian's suggestion about SFM is that SFM *is* the plan to win (much like Dack). The less nice thing is that right now Batterskull is horrifically bad against large swaths of the field.

Anyways. Not poo-pooing on Legionnaire, but to properly evaluate it I would need to know how it fits into the greater anti-Shop plan.

[desolutionist]

A good comparable is Baleful Strix. Set aside non-Shop matchups for now: Baleful Strix is "easy" to cast in the way that really good first-line Shop defence cards are. It didn't deal with any of the problem cards but it could often buy you a third of the time needed to get to six mana and punching through Dack.

I'm assuming the follow-up to Porcellan Legionnaire might be... Serenity? What's the follow-up to Serenity?

The nice thing about Brian's suggestion about SFM is that SFM *is* the plan to win (much like Dack). The less nice thing is that right now Batterskull is horrifically bad against large swaths of the field.

Anyways. Not poo-pooing on Legionnaire, but to properly evaluate it I would need to know how it fits into the greater anti-Shop plan.

It seems to me that White has to fight Shops with artifact creatures because, as fsecco pointed out, Disenchant is better than Legionnaire but could possibly cost 4 or more while Legionnaire only costs two. And in the example of SFM, a Lodestone Golem is beating face while you are waiting to equip your 3 mana 1/2.  

Legionnaire is the only card I can find that has an immediate impact at the lowest cost through Sphere effects.  That said, I dont think its particularly amazing but at least serves a role until you can Rebuild+Mentor or connect with a Disenchant or two.  Strix seems like it would serve a similar function or have to trade with a Mutavault

[diopter]

Totally desolutionist. I see both Strix and Legionnaire having a similar first-line defence / delay function. I'm just wondering what you are defending and delaying towards in white colors. I suppose in addition to Rebuild, Devout Witness is a possibility too?

[desolutionist]

I imagine once you can deploy a Mentor AND tokens, UW/x is in good shape vs. workshops.  Rebuild seems like the board wipe for the job because it returns the moxes that you used to fight through Spheres; the moxes can be used to go off with Mentor.  Additionally, the cycle ability is relevant for delve in other matchups.

I assumed Devout Witness would be "too cute" since it is expensive to cast, activate, AND you have to discard a card.  But it could be a way to lock them out once you've established control.

[Hrishi]

I have tried Devout Witness before. It is a fine card if you can resolve it and untap with it (much like Viashino Heretic). It is obviously a worse Viashino heretic in this situation, but that's not a bad place to be! At least it dodges Thorn.

[serracollector]

More basics and Abolish would be the route I would take in UW Mentor decks. Or maybe Land Tax could find a place again. Just my thoughts.

[John Cox]

I would use serenity or even aura of silence before most of what's been mentioned.

[hvndr3d y34r h3x]

I was thinking about what cards UW decks could use against workshops, and I thought this could be a possibility as a way of slowing down their offense in order to develop more mana.  Stops Revoker, Golem, Mutavault, and Factory from being any clock and can be used to go on the offense as well.  Its a creature artifact so unaffected by Golem and Thorn of Amethyst; Also Chalice in most cases

This has definitely already seen play for this exact purpose. If you can justy the space it's good agaisnt shop. But sb space is very tight between oath, shop, dredge, delver, burning long ect.