Monastery Mentor in storm combo

[Stormanimagus]

EDIT: (I hope you don't mind, this topic looked like it was getting some interest, so I split the posts into a thread not specifically about Dig/Cruise) - BrassMan


Personally, I'd like to see TPS decks start RUNNING Mentor themselves. I think it is a great card at playing around the hate that most decks run for storm and it will trigger more often because of the high mox count and low land count. I was brewing a TPS list that ran white splash for Mentor alongside a 2/2 main/sideboard split of Defense Grid and 3 Therapies main. It was an interesting list that I ultimately abandoned, but I think there still might be merit in the idea.

-Storm

[sirgog]

Personally, I'd like to see TPS decks start RUNNING Mentor themselves. I think it is a great card at playing around the hate that most decks run for storm and it will trigger more often because of the high mox count and low land count. I was brewing a TPS list that ran white splash for Mentor alongside a 2/2 main/sideboard split of Defense Grid and 3 Therapies main. It was an interesting list that I ultimately abandoned, but I think there still might be merit in the idea.

-Storm

I've been trying this on MTGO as well.

Can't make it work yet, but I think it has potential.

At the moment, it wins when it draws Academy and doesn't do well without it (I run a lot of cycling artifacts - Urza/Mishra Bauble etc). In those hands it was casting Treasure Cruise as a bad Concentrate until I removed the card (it was terrible without Academy).

[desolutionist]

Before Mentor, I tried Young Pyromancer in a Ritual Storm shell and it was terrible.  I thought I could get value with it via damage, Cabal Therapy, and Skullclamp but I was wrong.  Too much of a conflict.  I could spend all my resources into the mediocre win condition that was Young Pyromancer and not be able to kill with Tendrils or I go the Tendrils route and draw Young Pyromancer when I didn't want to.  I can't imagine Mentor being much better, it costs more and is white.

[TheBrassMan]

After reading Stormanimagus's post suggesting it, I just ran a TPS deck containing Monastery Mentor in a vintage daily on my twitch stream, to a 3-1 finish. After only 4 matches I can't say one way or another if the card is correct, but I was happy with the results and I didn't lose any games that I would have won with non-mentor cards.

I did not run any support cards that I would not otherwise run in a TPS deck, no Baubles or Skullclamps - I'm not surprised those cards didn't work out for other people.

So far it seems to raise the threat density of the deck, and make it harder for the other player to sideboard, at the cost of being a weak late game topdeck.

[Hrishi]

I can see Mentor being better than Pyromancer for this purpose because it is both a much faster clock as well as triggers off things such as Moxen. I can also see Mentor perhaps taking the place of Tinker-Bot as an alternate win because Tinker-Bot is stopped by Cage which also stops our Plan A of casting Yawgmoth's Will.

I would still be worried about the shop matchup though.

[Anusien]

To me Mentor actually seems like a very good anti-Shops plan because if you can stick one early, it lets you keep up/pressure/win without needing many storm.

[Ten-Ten]

Why not just run Empty the warrens with Flusterstorm protection?

[diopter]

My experience (with decks with way better base resistance to Shops than Storm) is that Mentor is a bad plan. You only get one really clear window to stick your three mana play and if it isn't Dack-level impact in terms of flipping around a losing board, you're hosed.

Storm is going to have a natural disadvantage v Shops even with the Chewer + Hurk + land plan... I think it's just the way it is.

[TheBrassMan]

I played Mentor-TPS on stream this past weekend in a vintage daily and finished 4-0. The stream should still be available, and deckilst here: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/339208#online , but I'll post for convenience.

3 Monastery Mentor
1 Demonic Tutor
3 Duress
1 Mind's Desire
1 Ponder
4 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Time Walk
1 Timetwister
1 Treasure Cruise
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
1 Dig Through Time
2 Force of Will
1 Gush
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Mental Misstep
1 Black Lotus
3 Defense Grid
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Tundra
2 Underground Sea

SB: 1 Island
SB: 2 Force of Will
SB: 1 Hurkyl's Recall
SB: 1 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 2 Ravenous Trap
SB: 2 Snuff Out
SB: 1 Strip Mine
SB: 1 Yixlid Jailer


This list was built before champs a few months back, and I haven't yet updated it for a post-thirst, post-chalice meta - I'm not totally clear what I would change, though I suspect I don't need as much Workshops hate. (Note that in this list, I consider Snuff Out to be shops hate).

While a list like this is more likely to whiff off a Bargain/Desire/Twister, I've been very happy with the reach and flexibility Mentors give you. People bringing in Illness in the Ranks is seriously amazing when you're playing Ritual combo.

In this specific list I tend to leave in Mentors against everything - but I've tested other variants/sideboards where I board into a more traditional storm list against say, Oath or the mirror

I'm happy to post information on card choices or sideboard plans if anyone is interested.

[desolutionist]

Hey Andy I've got a suggestion that would adjust for the new meta and help to not whiff.  You could drop Hurkyl's Recalls and play Tinker - Jar.  With an awesome permanent such as Monastery Mentor or Tolarian Academy, Draw 7 effects are really impactful and game ending.

[Chubby Rain]

Hey Andy I've got a suggestion that would adjust for the new meta and help to not whiff.  You could drop Hurkyl's Recalls and play Tinker - Jar.  With an awesome permanent such as Monastery Mentor or Tolarian Academy, Draw 7 effects are really impactful and game ending.

Careful, Shawn. It's a slippery slope. First you start with Tinker + Jar, then you're like "man, with all these draw 7's, I should be drawing 14" so in comes Notion Thief. Then you realize that counters are annoying and your all like "Cavern of Souls seems sweet". Next, "might as well throw in a Auriok Salvagers because infinite spells seems good with Mentor and Tinker fetches the other parts of the combo." Ultimately, you toss in a Magus of the Future, Helm of Awakening, and a couple of Tops because why not, and you realize you are playing full-on Humanstorm. And we all know that is not a real deck.

If you decide to jump down the rabbit hole, here are some Top 8 lists to get you started: http://tinyurl.com/humanstorm

Ignore the random Horde of Nations Commander list...I forgot EDH was a thing.

[desolutionist]

I've been playing Jace, the Mindsculptor as a 4-drop with draw 7's and I haven't tried Notion Thief, but that is a great idea.  I think I'd hold off on Cavern of Souls and Salvagers; Magus of the Future is a little far from target but I can see why it's good.  I think I'd rather play Future Sight because Enchantments are harder to deal with.

Why go for more humans like that?  I'm thinking Mentor is good here because its a solid alternate win condition.  Sort of like Rabblemaster was in Standard.  You just play it, and they've got to deal with it or lose.  It's comparable to Oath-Griselbrand in my opinion.

[Chubby Rain]

I've been playing Jace, the Mindsculptor as a 4-drop with draw 7's and I haven't tried Notion Thief, but that is a great idea.  I think I'd hold off on Cavern of Souls and Salvagers; Magus of the Future is a little far from target but I can see why it's good.  I think I'd rather play Future Sight because Enchantments are harder to deal with.

Why go for more humans like that?  I'm thinking Mentor is good here because its a solid alternate win condition.  Sort of like Rabblemaster was in Standard.  You just play it, and they've got to deal with it or lose.  It's comparable to Oath-Griselbrand in my opinion.

Magus of the Future is uncountable with Cavern of Souls - in fact, Cavern of Souls is the big reason to play this deck as you don't have to play Defense Grids of your own (Or you can play Grand Abolisher or Teferi, Mage of Something..I forget.. as uncounterable Defense Grids). In return, you get access to Force of Wills if you want them to interact with your opponent. But yeah, I agree that Mentor is a house and can be incredible in virtually any deck looking to do broken things. This is just another option that I think literally only Brian Kelly and I have explored.

[merfolkOTPT]

The TPS list that Andy brought up is interesting to me precisely because the investment is so minimal. By virtue of adding just mentor and 2 tundras the deck gets a whole new dimension and avenue of attack. 

I think that is more powerful than trying to build a "human storm deck" as opposed to just adding power to a deck that already is proven, with minimal changes.  Not to say human storm might not be good, but it is pretty far afield from the slight change we are talking about here.

My big question is while adding angles of attack is really good, what MUs does it make better at the cost of a slightly more vulnerable manabase, and were those already good MUs?

[TheBrassMan]

The most notable matchup improved by Mentor is hatebears - Not only does Mentor usually come down easily through any lock piece, a single Mentor can usually take down a team of 3 or 4 bears with BARELY (get it) any effort at all. It's a genuinely tricky matchup made a lot easier.

In general it makes it a lot harder for people to sideboard against you. A lot of the times they have no idea what your'e playing game 2 - I'll often win game one with a turn 1/2 mentor after playing zero storm-specific cards. Even if they know exactly what your'e up to, postboard planning is still difficult - do you really want to bring in Illness in the Ranks or Swords to Plowshares against a Tendrils deck? Do you really want to be completely soft to a turn 2 Mentor?

I prefer decks with multiple angles of attack in general, but it's hard to measure where you're getting a real edge outside the aforementioned HateBears matchup - I suspect white improves your Stax matchup, but I don't have enough data.

There are definite tradeoffs in terms of losing combo-bomb density, and the Mentors push you toward running cards that, while not bad, you might not necessarily run in a pure TPS deck (Gush, Misstep, extra Hurkyls)

[Chubby Rain]

I think that is more powerful than trying to build a "human storm deck" as opposed to just adding power to a deck that already is proven, with minimal changes.  Not to say human storm might not be good, but it is pretty far afield from the slight change we are talking about here.

What do you mean by proven? One is a remnant of the antiquated "pillars of Vintage" that was virtually nonexistent over the past couple years before getting renewed interest with the decline of shops and recent restriction of Chalice. The other is the spiritual precursor to Dragonlord Salvagers Oath and has put up multiple top 8 appearances and a Champs top 32 appearance (man, Notion Thief was a sick answer to 4X Treasure Cruise) over that span despite only being played by one player. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest but I find it rather irritating that ideas can be dismissed based on how different they are rather than based on their individual merits.

The TPS list that Andy brought up is interesting to me precisely because the investment is so minimal. By virtue of adding just mentor and 2 tundras the deck gets a whole new dimension and avenue of attack.

My big question is while adding angles of attack is really good, what MUs does it make better at the cost of a slightly more vulnerable manabase, and were those already good MUs?

The benefit to incorporating additional lines of attack is that you make your deck less susceptible to hate which means you are stronger against Hatebears, Shops, and cards like Flusterstorm/Misstep/Mindbreak Trap. The cost is that you are less able to execute your linear primary strategy, which costs you points in consistency and against other linear strategies that are as fast as you are (i.e. Dredge, Belcher, Storm). You also get a significant advantage in postsideboard match ups like Andy mentioned.

[merfolkOTPT]

Quote from: merfolkOTPT on Today at 06:24:34 AM
I think that is more powerful than trying to build a "human storm deck" as opposed to just adding power to a deck that already is proven, with minimal changes.  Not to say human storm might not be good, but it is pretty far afield from the slight change we are talking about here.

What do you mean by proven? One is a remnant of the antiquated "pillars of Vintage" that was virtually nonexistent over the past couple years before getting renewed interest with the decline of shops and recent restriction of Chalice. The other is the spiritual precursor to Dragonlord Salvagers Oath and has put up multiple top 8 appearances and a Champs top 32 appearance (man, Notion Thief was a sick answer to 4X Treasure Cruise) over that span despite only being played by one player. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest but I find it rather irritating that ideas can be dismissed based on how different they are rather than based on their individual merits.

Didn't tps also top 32 champs this year? Wait a second, what deck is the "human storm" deck in the top 32?  Do you mean bomberman with mentor. That deck doesn't run tendrils, notion thief, memory jar or magus of the anything.

That deck isn't storm combo, so putting it in a thread called "Monastery Mentor in storm combo" might not be appropriate.  Honestly, I am not trying to be disparaging to the deck, I just think these are super different ideas, and this will ultimately result in killing 2 ideas in one thread that would otherwise potentially be reasonable ideas.

As for your response to my question, I already understand why adding angles of attack to decks can be powerful, my question was about whether those were already good matchups. In my experience with hatebear decks (not BUG Fish or other blue decks with dudes, but hatebears) combo is a terrible MU already, so if that is the matchup you gain points in at expense of consistency it seems like a bad addition.  I think this deck is already good against Fluster , MBT, and MM because of defense grid, but I could be wrong.  The real question is does it make your shops MU better, and how much of a concern is that currently given the state of shops. I would assume you shops MU isn't too bad if tiny robots is the main version of shops at the moment, but I haven't seen enough shops decks of late to be sure.  In either event, it doesn't seem like it dilutes you primary plan much, there are still plenty of bombs.  As for making sideboarding more difficult for all opponents, and making your own SB much better, I am all about that.  So it might be worth it, even if mentor keeps your game 1s mostly the same if it fundamentally changes sideboarding both for yourself and your opponent that seems very strong.

Andy, given that this is an old list and Shops and Dredge have fallen off to an extent, what do you think the big benefits are Sideboard wise that white brings vs blue and black?

[TheBrassMan]

Funny, in my experience HateBears is one of the worse matchups for TPS - but that deck varies so much I guess it's hard to have any consistent data (and maybe I'm just not good at playing against it)

The only white sideboard cards I've tried that weren't anti-shops or anti-dredge are Containment Priest v Oath and Chant/Silence v storm combo.

I like the Priest v Oath plan, but Oath isn't exactly a bad matchup for storm, so that's no reason to run white by itself (though consider that the plan isn't "containment priest" but "containment priest + mentor", there's synergy there you can't look at in a vacuum)

Orim's Chant/Abeyance/Silence can be pretty brutal in storm mirrors, but lets' be serious: Storm mirrors don't happen too often. I wouldn't run them unless the meta changes dramatically.

I agree that Defense Grid is the critical card against Misstep/Fluster/MBT - not Mentor. I don't think there is any one matchup (besides HateBears, which is of dubious value, I guess), that Mentors dramatically improve the deck against. I do think it very slightly improves matchups across the board (except for against other combo decks), but my data now is pretty light.

[ObstinateFamiliar]

I've tried Mentor in storm and found it...kind of pointless to be honest.  Perhaps it depends on your build?  Maybe if you're playing a slower deck that plans to win on turn 3-4 but in that case...why aren't you just playing Doomsday or Gush Storm?

If we're talking about faster decks, for 3cmc I could be casting:

Necropotence
Tinker
Wheel of Fortune
Timetwister
Windfall
Yawgmoth's Will

Those all seem more likely to win the game on the spot than Mentor does, not to mention the red splash for Wheel also gives you access to things like Ingot Chewer which IMO is still very helpful for the shops matchup to prevent getting sphered into oblivion before you can find/cast your bounce spell.

[TheBrassMan]

It's pretty straightforward. Mentor makes the deck slower, but also reduces the scope of cards that are good against you. I don't think anybody would argue that Mentor makes the deck faster in an opponent-less vacuum - but some cards an strategies slow down traditional storm cards and lose to Mentor. They may not lose the turn you play Mentor - but they still lose, which is quite a bit more important.

[ObstinateFamiliar]

It's pretty straightforward. Mentor makes the deck slower, but also reduces the scope of cards that are good against you.

Does it?  It turns on all their removal and makes their dudes more relevant since they can block your Mentor.  Things like Flusterstorm, Misstep, etc. might be marginally worse but you're still playing Storm -- those are good against your no matter what your win condition is.  The only matchup I can think of that it might improve is Shops, but at least in the testing I did, it seemed to actually make that matchup worse since I was more likely to whiff after bouncing their team.

So I guess my real question is: what matchups does adding Mentor improve?

[merfolkOTPT]

Turning on their removal is awesome for you, because they might leave in swords and path against you playing TPS.  Isn't that the best possible outcome? The whole point of orthogonal threats is that they might keep in cards against the wrong half of the deck. Like sometimes you draw cards that are good against mentor and sometimes you draw cards that are good against storm, but now you have to draw the right ones at the right time.  From my perspective as the storm player most of my cards are good with either win condition, but I have vastly diversified the ways that my deck can take yours down.  It isn't enough for you to just stop my "bombs" that are instants and sorceries, you have to deal with creatures too.

[TheBrassMan]

Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of games and matchups where you'd rather just be a pure TPS deck. I don't think adding Mentors really slows you down that much, but if you're playing in a field of Doomsday and Oath, Mentor would be a pretty bad call. It's just a tool in the toolbox, not a pure improvement/evolutionary step in any sense.

[Jostin123]

On Sunday I ran my DPS list and cut the tinker package for a singleton mentor.  I did not wind up needing to cast it, but there were decks in the room where I would have wanted it in my 60.  I cut the tinker package for it and a few other cards, and did not miss it all day.  I'm traditionally a shop pilot, and from the shop perspective, Mentor is a much better tinker the tinker.  Metamorph doesn't give you as much game when you copy it, it can't be contained by tangle wire, duplicate doesn't solve it because it grows wide, and even though lodestone will usually still attack profitably (it and tokens dont grow as large  on opponent's turn as with gush decks) you can still chumps and the crack back is a lot more painful.  It is easier to cast through spheres, as the lack of chalice means Shops are playing more Thorn, and in a time where Null Rod is seeing increased play, Hurkyll's gets better, which makes playing mentor better alongside it.  I ran one Mentor and a single Tundra main and it didn't affect the consistency of my storming out at all.  In fact, because it allowed me to cut the tinker package, I didn't have dead draws with Jar of Colossus, which sometimes can be stranded in hand if your mix of spells don't fit.

There was only twenty something people there, but being how I haven't played Storm since at least 09 and possibly even 07, my results were.surprisingly good.

[brianpk80]

They may not lose the turn you play Mentor - but they still lose, which is quite a bit more important.

This is a very insightful quote.  It's easiest in Vintage to design the shell that wins most glamorously and tempting to do so, but winning-small is just as critical to winning.  I find the reasoning for Monastery Mentor in Storm decks compelling.  I've had a lot of success beating Storm by hating it out and that becomes much more difficult when I have to consider the possibility of Mentor, thereby diluting my answer-package.  And as we know, there are no wrong threats, only wrong answers. 

[Khahan]

Another thing I'm finding with mentor is that it is incredibly strong after something like a counter war that depletes both players hands. A resolved mentor in this situation is basically the same as a win. Whereas drawing into a tendrils is a dead card and a yawg will could be a win.  As both opponents are playing draw-go trying to restock their  hands and sculpt their cards a mentor means its game over.