GAT/Gro's legitimacy, and concerns about current builds.

[eddavatar]

GAT has been highly disregarded as a good deck since Gush's restriction, as it is considered strictly inferior to Hulk. I beg to differ.

After Mirrodin, Psychatog based decks are given a great weapon in the form of Isochron Scepter, while having to face the threat of Chalice of the Void (Chalice for (3)(3) resolves = GG, while Chalice for (2)(2) is crippling.) Since the Vintage Championships, people have prepared for Hulk in most meta. The readiness of the meta makes control player less inclined to play Tog based decks. Also, the revival of Keeper in the form of Isokeeper and Scepter control contributes the decline in popularity of Hulk. The worst thing is, Hulk suffers from collateral damage from cards that is used against other decks, namely graveyard hates like Withered Wretch, Tomod's Crypt and so on.

GAT, on the other hand, is a totally different beast.

Qurion Dryads are still very good despite what people think. It gives the deck a better reason to run the green besides berserk and naturalize. Also, they are a safe route to victory when things go wrong with the Tog. Very often, you would ride a 5/5 dryad to victory. Dryads are also very good against aggro. (except something like Dreadnought which you should never let the Mask resolve anyway or you lose) They give you a huge threat as a side benefit after Yawg Will when you are staring down a Maze of Ith.

I was against the addition of Isochron Scepter at the beginning as I've always have the idea of it standing in the way of the more tempoish game of GAT. However, my mind totally changes after testing. It's Pure Gold. It wins game blatantly with stuff like Ancestral or Mana Drain imprinted. But it can also win games in weird ways with things like a Stifle Stick against Dragon (well, probably not even necessary, but it sure is an example). Its power amplifies with cunning wish obviously. I now found it indispensable.

I'm happy to see that GAT has been showing up in different European Tournies. However, I'm taking a critical stance against those builds. There have been GAT/r and even GAT/w. I believe that is absolutely the wrong direction.

Yes, the utility that the deck gains is undeniable. But just by looking at the meta, you would know that going 4 color is a very risky thing to do. The amount of wasteland effect is way too high (including stifle of course). It is also very crucial to run the wasteland effect in the deck itself with all the powerful non-basic lands and fetches running around. It's not worth losing stability to obtain the utility, as it is like breaking your leg to use it as a club, it's counter-intuitive.

Here is my currect build that has been successful in quite diverse metas.

Mana (23)

4x Underground Sea
3x Tropical Island
2x Island
3x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
2x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Mox, Sans Pearl
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring

Creature (6)

4x Qurion Dryad
2x Psychatog

Spells (31)

4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
2x Stifle

4x Accumulated Knowledge
4x Brainstorm
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Intuition
1x Ancestral Recall

3x Cunning Wish
1x Time Walk
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Mystical Tutor

1x Pernicious Deed

Sideboard (15)

2x Compost
2x Energy Flux
2x Naturalize
2x Diabolic Edict
1x Smother
1x Coffin Purge
1x Stifle
1x Berserk
1x Hydroblast
1x Fact or Fiction
1x Pernicious Deed

Considering Following options in sideboard also:
Artifact mutation (to be used on a stick)
Gush (It was in original sideboard, removed in favor for Edict in last tournament anticipating aggro)

[walkingdude]

My experience with post restriction GAT is limited. I played it extensively before gush was restricted though. One concern I would have with this build is protecting the dryads from burn. Against sligh, when they cast bolt you could often just gush and brainstorm to make the dryad safe. Without gush, you are low on ways to grow at instant speed. It seems like some more free spells (probably misdirections) would be useful if you expect to face sligh in any numbers.

[Caelestis]

I have to take a stand against this. While I tested Scepter and finds that it randomly wins games, Scepter in GaT is just not what it will be in Keeper-like decks. There is just a simple difference in the amount of verstility that the Scepter provides, and Keeper outranks GaT on the Scepter power list by far. The overpowering result of Scepter leads to hates like md Damping Matrix in other Keeper builds tuned for a high powered metagame, as seen in Zherbus' recent build, and Jake's build in this same page. Instead of following a trend that is to be hated, I believe GaT should continue as it is, and perhaps use the splashing of colors to combat hates used (like the seemingly out of place Humility in Keeper).

[eddavatar]

I can see where you are coming from on the scepters issue. But the thing is, once the scepter resolves, you pretty much win the game most of the time (I do not recall resolving a scepter and losing) The scepter does funny stuff to numerous decks like artifact mutation against stax and edict against most aggro. Scepter often provides me the card drawing I sometimes lacks midgame. I believe it is good enough of a trade-off to run a couple scepters. Scepters are also very easy to be sided out and just bring in answers from the sideboard.

[firebird365]

I think that while Scepter is good in GaT, are its positives enough to merit inclusion in the deck? I think many decks recently are prepared to take care of Scepters (such as Caelestis' example of Damping Matrix in Keeper) and, if they resolved or remained active, then it's overkill anyway. I haven't picked really played the deck in a competetive metagame - how do you think it would react to the emergence of Stompy-esque decks? I am currently reading the Waterbury report by Smemmen, so I assume it's able to handle them.

[Wollblad]

I have done a lot of testing with a deck like the one posted here, but I use red and no Wastelands. For discussion I'll post my list:

Mana (22)
5 fetch
3 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic
1 Island
1 LoA
1 Strip
4 Moxes (no white)
1 Lotus

Creatures (6)
3 Dryads
2 Tog
1 Gorilla Shaman

Disruption (11)
4 Mana Drain
4 FoW
3 Duress

Others (21)
4 Brainstorm
4 Accu
1 FoF
1 Gush
1 Mystical
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Demonic
1 Yawgmoth's Will
2 Scepters
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fire/Ice
1 Ancestral
1 Time Walk

Card choices, matchups and general comments
- The deck often works different from the old GAT deck. In the early turns, you often just wait to get a Mana Drain through. When you do, the deck explodes with spells starting with a Dryad and the kill will follow shortly. This is also why I use only three dryads. As the deck looks, you definatly do not want two of them in your starting hand. They are at there worst against storm decks where first turn Dryad is a dead play.

- After much testing the choice fell on Duress rather than Misdirection. Misdirection often prooved to be totally dead and that was specially true for the hard matchups. I started out with 2 Misdirections. Later on I added a Duress and was always happy when I drew it. Even against decks with burn, the Misdirections wasn't good enough. So after lot of testing, I switched to Duresse only. I have not tested Stifle, but since it does not protect your creatures or stop your opponents Stifles, I don't think that they are of much use. Sure they do stop Wasteland, but that's about it.

-  The inclusion of one Strip Mine can seems odd, but it is mostly there to remove Maze of Ith and LoA. It could be in the sideboard instead, but when you play against Stax, you often want as much mana as you can get and therefore it is in main instead. There might acually be som problems to find it when you need it, but I have never used more than two turns to serch for it and my disruption base have then been good enough to hold of my opponent. I don't agree that includeing Wastelands is necessary. They are generally too passive for this deck. I would Rather add Vampiric Tutor than a Wasteland if I had problem to find the lone Wasteland.

- I use neither mox number 5 nor Sol Ring. I certainly do not want more mana in the deck, but it would be nice to have some more mana acceleration. This is, I guess, a matter on how much you dare to risk to get the acceleration. Regarding the first point in this list, I dare not to take that risk.

- The Inclusion of red has helped me a lot. The Gorliia Shaman has eaten a lot of Scepters and he is worth gold against Stax and Welder Mud. Fire Ice is also good against aggro and a wounderful Scepter imprint. I started out with 2 of them in main deck, but found that one of the slots could be used more efficiently.

- I have cut Regrowth. Not because it is a bad card, but because all the graveyard hate that's around and if I have no gravyard, the card will be dead.

- The deck has fair matchups against Keeper, U/r Scepter control. In these matchup much circels about the scepters and in my oppinion, GAT uses it best.

- Bad matchups are Stax, Welder Mud and Recor-decks. In these matchups Misdirection is more or less completely dead and thats perhaps the biggest reason for its removal. Much sideboard space must be dedicated to these decks. Without red, I don't know how the matchup against Stax could be won at all.

- The deck has a suprisingly good mathup against Dragon. I don't know why, but the testing has been extensive, and after sidebaord it seems more or less impossible to loose.

- I do not use Future Sight since if you can resolve it, you could have resolved anything that draws you some cards and still win. I have instead put a Fact of Fiction there which I think have more synnergy with the deck.


This is my oppinion based on lot of testing but it would be interesting to know what other people have experiensed testing this deck. I have not directly answered the questions rised in the the original post, but hope that this reply will help out anyway.

[zamuli]

Wollblad: I like your dekcs idea, but i have some thoughts you could find helful:

Add 4 Duress. If you can by any reasonable means. Cut down a gush and place it on SB, for exampla, for you can Wish cards from side only when you need them and more easily than Tutoring from MD. You didn't post your SB here, wich i would like to see, I'm planning to build something like this myself.

I have not tested Stifle, but since it does not protect your creatures or stop your opponents Stifles, I don't think that they are of much use. Sure they do stop Wasteland, but that's about it.

I disagree to that. Stifles can do almost anything, they stop Wastelands, they stop Fetchlands (1cc instant-speed sinkhole, is there better?), they stop Storm, they stop cycling, they stop Dragon leaving him with nothing, they do almost anything to make your opponent's life difficult. It is almost never a dead card, i'd run 1 or 2 in maindeck, at the very least 1 in SB to be Wished when neeeded.

[Wollblad]

If you compare this deck list with that of Grand Iquisitor (found here) you will notice a clear correlation. My decklist is developed from his, so I guess most credit fall on him.

I am not sure I want more disruption than I have now, but I am not completely satisfied with Gush either. It can put you back several turns, but it can also save your lands from Wasteland. Which leads me to your comment on Stifle. This deck is mostly interested in getting a creature out, defending it and then win. Stifle doesn't help this object at all. It can be good to stop fetches, but it is seldom strong enough by it selfe but needs backup from Wastelands and frankly, this deck is not a control deck. It want just so much control that it can give it's creatures time to beat the opponent to death, not Keeper-like control. The argument that it stops Dragon is not valid since a good dragon player will use Squee to establish a hand full of Duress and FoW before playing any reanimation spells and Stifle cannot stop that.

My sideboard is still shifting but my latest version is:
1 Berserk
2 REB
1 BEB
2 Naturalize
1 Artifact Mutation
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Coffin Purge
1 Fire/Ice
1 Smother
1 Rack and Ruin
1 open spot (Gush could perhaps be placed here)

I think I need something more against Welder/Mud and Rector decks but I do not know what it could be. Stifle could be a sidebaord option since it is good to Stifle the Rector ability and a Stifled Tangle wire could be the difference between victory and loss. But I still don't think it is maindeck material.

[Caelestis]

This deck is mostly interested in getting a creature out, defending it and then win. Stifle doesn't help this object at all.

If I may be so bold, how does using a Scepter help you in this aspect?

When you take a look in the finals report given by the Smmenen, you can see clearly that GaT's flexibility is what made it win. In my experience, Scepter limits that a lot. How so? Once you drop a Scepter, you have more perms to defend than before, you only had to defend a Drayd previously, and in turn your counter war is limited to only one form of hate. However, with Scepter, you not only have to deal with Creature Hate, you will also have to contend with the additional Artifact hate that has surfaced. GaT is able to play Control and shift into Aggro after a few turns of AKing and Countering. Scepter forces to assume a much more controllish path, which is detrimental against the rise of G based Aggro. Not to mention a much greater amount of tempo loss as compared to pure Control decks, and loss of tempo can ruin the whole game for Aggro.

Stifle, on the other hand, because of its 1cc-Instant nature, causes less problem with tempo. It defends your manabase against Wastes, another card that has been surfacing, in addition to other utilities that it has because of the current metagame.

[eddavatar]

Scepter helps you protect your dryad. It is a distraction for your opponent, while it is an insane card advantage engine for you most of the time.

My experience with scepter is usually when I activate it more than once, I win. Imagine the scenario of Scepter with a Mana Drain, it does EXACTLY the job of protecting the dryad WHILE growing it as a side benefit. And even if scepter got destroyed, you usually would've gained use of it for a couple times and reach your goal while earning you enough time to kill with a dryad or a tog.

And the scepter is actually helpful against the wave of neo-stompy. Imagine putting a diabolic edict stick(although admitted albeit slow, but that's what your counters and dryad's for, stalling the game), they would be in huge trouble.

I've to stress the fact that i was in the anti-scepter school (check the discussions i've with GI and others on GAT in the old forums) but i changed my mind after numerous testing. Scepter sounded like it's a bad call, but it works.

P.S.:Btw, i'm surprised that no one is raising an issue on the lack of Duress and Misdirection. I wonder if everyone thinks like me and believe that their use in the meta has diminished while stifle has taken their place.

[Caelestis]

Assuming you can activate it. You drop it turn 2, you are counting on the Force against their Counters and Stifles and whatnot. You drop it turnX when you can protect it well, you have won the game already. While you can indeed grow a Dryad and protect a Tog with the Scepter, you have lost 2~3 turns untapping and all. With the lack of Stifle and a manabase with Waste to disrupt the opponent, my experience is that you won't have all that much mana untapped to be able to use it.

Dropping a Dryad and Growing it has the same effect as putting an edict on a stick, and Pernicious Deed can perform it just as well, and effectively wiping out whatever else they have on the board. You don't particularly need the Scepter to be able to deal with Aggro, considering in just a few spells your Dryad tower above their critters.

I have noticed that you used to be anti-scepter, however, in the lists recently found in Europe, there are no Scepters and they are performing just as well, as you have seen. Unless I am mistaken, the various builds showing up in the previous Waterbury and the current one, not all that many sported Scepter as well. Grand Inquisitor was exploring a possibility of Dark Seed when TMD went down, and his build for the current Waterbury apparently didn't include Scepter either (I read nothing that indicates a Scepter, I probably am mistaken)

Once Scepter is gone, to garner additional control elements, Duress is an automatic again, possibly even in a 4c build.

[eddavatar]

Caelestis: I've ran both the non-stick and sticked version of GAT and after comparison I've determined that the one with sticks is more powerful. I initially removed 1 Duress, that I was so reluctant to remove, and fit one Scepter in. I've found out that I do not miss the Duress at all while I feel hungry for another Scepter. Honestly, the sticks are optional, just like Future Sight-Fastbond, Gush main deck, and Intuitions. It's all a matter of play style. I personally could never cut Intuitions because I believe it's insane to not run them in a deck with 4 AKs.

[Wollblad]

If I may be so bold, how does using a Scepter help you in this aspect?

The Scepters are there mainly as a draw engine. They will then help me to grow my Dryads and to get cards in the graveyard for my Togs. Since they are mainly a draw engine, they are another reason why I should drop the main decked Gush. Yes, they can be destroyed by artifact hate and so on and so forth, but if you get to activate them once they can be no worse than one card for another and often your opponent must spend more resorces in terms of cards and mana to destroy it than you to cast and activate it. Hence it is more of a tempo loss for your opponent. The mirror matches I have played have always come down to who gets a good imprint on the Scepter. First to imprint card drawing always won. I would not play with more than two since then you tend to get stuck with them in your hand.

As I understand your arguments, you suggest that I should switch two Scepters for two Stifle. But the deck needs active cards. Too many reactive cards will slow you down since you must wait for the right opportunity to use your reactive cards. The reactive card can be dead for several turns and there is very little you can do to make them active (as you can with your counters, just play a spell and defend it). Scepters or not, Stifle does not belong to GAT decks.

[Plainswalker]

The only thing I noticed is that with the scepters in your deck, Pernicious Deed doesn't seem as good as answer to use. I know it's Tog's "O shit handle" but have you had any problems with this so far? Also, since you do now use the scepters, I think you can probably make some room in your sideboard by taking out certain things to strengthen other matchups, namely the Energy Flux.

[eddavatar]

Plainswalker: Scepter and Deed works just fine. When I need to deed, it's usually situations that gets out of hand, which means scepter's unlikely to be on board.

Taking out energy flux is inexcusable. Workshop is the absolute worst matchup possible. And other than the workshop based decks, I believe the deck has enough to win against most matchups. And that is the reason why i'm contemplating putting artifact mutation in board to be imprinted.

[Plainswalker]

Alright wasn't sure about the deed thing. I didn't make myself clear on the last part though, I know you had talked about adding artifact mutation before so what I meant was to say remove the flux for 1 and then something else. I never liked flux much, I know it just wins vs artifact prison, but if they let you cast a 3 CC "sorcery" speed spell then your probably doing alright to begin with. If it works for you then by all means use it, but have you decided to what to take out for the mutation?

[Bram]

But the thing is, once the scepter resolves, you pretty much win the game most of the time (I do not recall resolving a scepter and losing)

While that may well be true, I'm forced to wonder wether you won because you resolved a Scepter and imprinted it with some random tech, or that the fact that you had the mana and time available to play a Scepter instead of playing threats or creating card advantage means that you were winning anyway.

I've said this before in a different thread: I've almost no post-restriction GAT experience (having turned to TOG like all the other traitors to the cause), so this remark should be viewed more as a question than a statement :p

That said, whatever happened to Fastbond? Obviously, it was broken when Gush was a four-of, and much less so now. But I remember seeing GAT builds just before and just after the restriction of the greatest card-drawer ever that featured Future Sight (I believe this was when The Shining first reared its ugly head). Did these builds not work, or what? I can imagine FS is too expensive for the deck, but then again those builds did run Mana Drain. Anyone have any experience with that?

[TutoreIlluminato]

If Future Sight resolves, it's game. But many times it looks too slow...It shines only against other control decks, but against Stax/Mud, Zoo, Madness, Monored, Mask etc. it's simply too slow.
Fastbond:we have too little lands to let it work.It's good only when you draw the single Gush or after a Yawgmoth's Will (with this card you will win even without fastbond)

[Wollblad]

I tested Fastbond and one Future Sight, not in GaT, but in Hulk Smash. You probably do not want more than one Future Sight because of its high casting cost. As TutoreIlluminato pointed out, Y-Win is hardly a combo with Fastbond since you will win anyhow. That leavs you with two cards - Future Sight and Gush - that combines well with Fastbond. I felt that it was clearly too few. In the old day when 4 Gush was standard you could often find another Gush from the first one. Now you got to play your Gush and then play for example an Accu. Thats not nearly as strong as before. I often experienced that I drew Fastbond and had no use for it and when Future Sight or Gush showed up I had no Fastbond. Not even in the starting hand it was good enough unless I also had Gush which happened very seldom.

Fastbond can perhaps be playable if you use Daze, but that I haven't tested. Would be interesting to know if anyone has tested Daze and can contribute with experience from real playtesting.

[eddavatar]

On "The Shining" sub-theme in GAT: I personally hated it. I even wasted my money on a foil Chinese FS.

As I've discussed before on the old noob forum, Future Sight is perfectly fine only if it's 2 blue and 3 colorless, but it's the other way around. Reaching 3 blue can sometimes be a stretch to even leave enough mana to protect anything. My testing of future sight shows that its best use is as a FoW pitch, but not a win condition.

Kaervimon: Once again, that's exactly my feeling towards scepter before playing it. Believe it or not, the deck can run out of juice and be short on draw spell. Often, the AK for 4 might not give you enough of a push to win the game, and that's when the scepter comes into play. A scepter imprinted with brainstorm would usually give me enough search ability to get the cunning wish to win.

[Caelestis]

Yes, they can be destroyed by artifact hate and so on and so forth, but if you get to activate them once they can be no worse than one card for another and often your opponent must spend more resorces in terms of cards and mana to destroy it than you to cast and activate it. Hence it is more of a tempo loss for your opponent.

It might just be me, but Damping Matrix is ubiquitous. It shows up in Keeper, it shows up in some Aggro, it shows up in hybrid decks like EBA. Assuming you get to activate the Scepter is quite unlikely. GaT, however you take it, will always be on the manalight side. It is not like Chronic, a deck built to exploit Scepter as soon as possible, and with mass mana producers to boot with it. It is highly unlikely that you will be able to protect your scepter, then still use it as soon as it drops. To these hate decks, running Matrix or other artifact/control hate isn't a tempo disadvantage, it is a part of aggro not unlike Force is to U-Based control. To Keeper, it is a part of their strategy, to slow down your pace, and establish card and board advantage. Basically, most of the decks that would md some sort of solution against Scepter has whatever solution it is as a part of their gameplan, not just as an answer to random things.

As I understand your arguments, you suggest that I should switch two Scepters for two Stifle. But the deck needs active cards. Too many reactive cards will slow you down since you must wait for the right opportunity to use your reactive cards. The reactive card can be dead for several turns and there is very little you can do to make them active (as you can with your counters, just play a spell and defend it). Scepters or not, Stifle does not belong to GAT decks.

I didn't suggest that. Once you drop Scepter, there are a wide variety of options in terms of cards that you can use. Stifle just happens to have gotten mixed up in this discussion. However, I do believe that Stifle deserves a spot in GaT very much so. It simples provides an answer to many things that GaT is traditionally unable to deal with, and works as a solution for a vast amount of deck strategies. The fact that it is an instant is the deciding point with me. You can keep it in hand with minimal tempo loss as you are anticipating a move against you, be it Waste or a sudden Necro eot. Tapping out during your main phase to cast something that there is much hate in the metagame for is much less desirable than that, in my humble opinion.

Kaervimon, Fastbond has been discussed some where in the old Extreme Vintage forums, when David Hernandez or someone else mentioned the idea of a Post-Restriction GaT. At then, it is just dismissed as a mulligan if you draw it, as there is not enough advantage spawning from it. Even now, it is the same situation. You just play it and...it does nothing, until you have some brokenness or another.

While that may well be true, I'm forced to wonder wether you won because you resolved a Scepter and imprinted it with some random tech, or that the fact that you had the mana and time available to play a Scepter instead of playing threats or creating card advantage means that you were winning anyway.

This was exactly the point that I made, there is simply too much things that you would have to do to protect the Scepter and to use it. It is of my opinion that a deck that is not built to abuse Scepter should not use it for a chance of random brokenness. In the long run, consistency is the Key.

[eddavatar]

Caelestis: Scepter is NOT the focus of the deck. That's what makes Scepter so good for my GAT. It distracts my opponent and make them misplace their resources to kill the scepter instead of the true threats like Dryad. I had a discussion with my playgroup last night on the virtue of the stick. While it does hamper your tempo, it's actually a tempo gainer in disguise because your opponent have to devout resources to deal with this powerful diversion.

I mean, If Keeper and aggro want to bring in hate against the scepter, guess what I'M HAPPY. I often side out 1 or even both scepters in hope that if they side in full hate against scepter then I gain the virtual card advantage of their dead draw.

The only thing i would replace the scepter with is Duress, but since it has lost much of its power with the wane of Long and recent revival of Aggro, I'm not even sure if it's the best choice anymore.

So yea, try the scepter for real, and you will see why there are not 0, not 4, but 2 scepters in my deck. It acts as a diversion for you opponent while earning you more time or you just straight up win with the stick. I can't stress enough how i was so skeptical about the scepter before testing.

On fastbond, back in the old noob forum we've discussed and after testings that it doesn't belong to the deck anymore. The sole reason that Roland Bode put it in the original GAT was because of its synergy with Gush. Now that Gush is lost there's no point in leaving Fastbond in deck anymore.