The role of B2B in Tog builds

[Ric_Flair]

Eastman was mentioned in Smemmen's last SCG article as using or trying to use B2B in Tog.  With that little blurb and no deck to go on, I decided to try the build out.  Or at least my build with Tog and B2B.  Needless to say I stunk.  But I am still working on it.  Here is the decklist I developed after Asian James spanked me this past weekend in Brighton:

7 SoloMoxen
5 Strip/Wastes
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Islands
1 Swamp

4 Drain
4 FoW
2 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 AK
2 Intuition
2 Psychatog
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Timewalk
1 Yawg Will
1 Mind Twist
1 Mystical Tutor
2 Cunning Wish
2 Duress

3 Disk
2 B2B
or
2 Disk
3 B2B

First some points.  I know that the deck is not three colors despite the availability of fetches.   I am making a calculated risk:  The value of B2B, given certain metagame conditions, outwieghs the flexibility of adding third or fourth colors.  That is a hefty gamble, and if the deck fails this is likely why.  I am also aware of a lack of creature removal.  I am banking on Disk, which may not be wise in a Stifle happy format.  Cunning Wish could also pick up some of the slack.  I am also well aware of the Disk v. Deed debate and after the first gamble I took I realized that while Deed was clearly superior, Disk is the only possible solution in this deck.  

Overall I was disappointed with the deck.  James' deck, which I am not sure if it is under wraps, wupped me.  The deck played more like MonoBlue Control with Tog as the finish than Hulk.  Hopefully the revisions will help.  I am also still working on the SB.  A Tog SB is very hard to design right now, for some reason.  Or at least it is for me.

Until I can figure out some innovative approach, I will still be playing GAT, but I just wanted to put this out there and get some intelligent feedback.  I like the idea, I just can't seem to get it to move anywhere.

[Zherbus]

While I fully appreciate the goal, I think the reason that Tog with green is so good is because it let's it ignore so much, like most aggro. I also think that Tog needs 3 Togs pre-board, because you want to win before the opponent does and despite all the search and card drawing, 2 Togs likely won't cut it.

[Kerz]

I've been testing Tog a TON lately (Ugb) and I have found that it is an extemely solid deck and doesn't have many terrible matchups sans TPS... and maybe a few others.

The decklist you played is horrifyingly bad, and while I am keeping my own decklist under wraps until after waterbury.. i think Zherbus is sending you on the right track.

[Ric_Flair]

Kerz,

I told everyone from the outset that this decklist is struggling.  So I appreciate the criticism.  Gawd, Vintage decklists are so hard to make...there are too many good (read: automatic) cards.  One Tog is so hard to squeeze in.

[Kowal]

You really don't need intuition #2.  I suggest putting a Tog there.

[Samite Healer]

I'm not an expert on Hulk, but it seems that some of the problems may be alleviated by the removal of the two maindeck Stifles.  Since the deck plays much more like protected combo, it seems that the pair of Stifles seems a little out of place.  Cutting them would allow you to easily add the third tog, and perhaps either Duress  or Cunning Wish # 3, while still leaving you with the two Intuitions.

[kirdape3]

Stifle is for a control deck with a serious mana denial aspect.  This deck falls into that category if it's running Back to Basics (although this is a less effective solution than running red and Gorilla Shaman as well as Stifle).

[Eastman]

Well obviously the cat's out of the bag on this one. Due to some team considerations with Waterbury coming up, I'm just going to copy over my thread openner from the team Hadley forum written shortly after I built the deck and smashed all sorts of faces in at a Hadley mini.

The deck has been beating people up in NE since it was built in December.
*****************************************************
After toying with Urphid last week I came to two conclusions.

1. Blood Moon is DISGUSTING right now (i realized this before building the deck, it was merely confirmed in testing)

2. Urphid is just too weak... morphling sucks - games were constantly being stolen from me.


So when I sat down Sunday morning to build a deck for the tourney we were playing that day, I wasn't sure exactly what to play. As I said I knew Moon was powerful but felt like Urphid was too weak and could be smashed by powerful hands from nearly every deck.

I went about building a deck with the intention of breaking the format in half, by virtue of luck or skill I did... up for review:

B2B HULK - THE BEST DECK IN THE FORMAT

(this list has been modified slightly from what i played sunday)

!25 Mana sources
5 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
5 Blue Fetch
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
7 SoLoMoxen

!17 Draw/Utility
2 Intuition
4 Accumulated Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Brainstorm
2 Cunning Wish
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk

!15 Disruption
1 Mind Twist
1 Gaea's Blessing
2 Duress
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Back to Basics

!3 Kill
3 Psychatog

Sideboard:
The sideboard is one of the (many) strengths of this deck. It's straightforward and the Intuitions act as additional tutors for all the necessary SB bombs.

3 Deep Analysis
3 Ground Seal
3 Pernicious Deed

1 Gush (used over scrying as draw for synergy with B2B and tog)
1 Naturalize
1 BEB
1 Berserk
1 Coffin Purge
1 Smother


So what I can say so far for strengths/weaknesses:

Wasteland is everywhere, the basics are awesome.

The loss or red against control is supplanted by the gain of back to basics. I believe the control matchup is stronger with additional threats and basics than it was with the odd shamans/rebs.

Ground Seal is excellent. It will nail yo' ass every time.

(note no weaknesses are listed)
This deck is at once one of the more stifling control decks and one of the most explosively powerful aggro decks I've seen. All I did when playing it was sit on a full hand till I have to win (read: about to take lethal damage) and then I went ahead and won.
Well I'm curious what you guys (particularly steve who asked about this) think. Talk to me. Also: Start playing this deck.


*******************************************************
Please excuse my  hyperbole in describing the deck. We're all local friends in Hadley and I use a bit of humor.

The deck is a monster though.

[jpmeyer]

This isn't too different from my rough Tog:

        4 Polluted Delta
        4 Underground Sea
        4 Tropical Island
        4 Island
        1 Swamp
        1 Library of Alexandria

        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Sol Ring

        3 Psychatog
        1 Xantid Swarm

        4 Brainstorm
        4 Accumulated Knowledge
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        2 Cunning Wish
        2 Intuition
        1 Back to Basics
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        1 Gush
        1 Fact or Fiction
        1 Mystical Tutor

        2 Duress
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Mind Twist

SB:  3 Pernicious Deed
SB:  2 Back to Basics
SB:  2 Xantid Swarm
SB:  1 Hurkyl's Recall (I dunno, is there anything else that's good enough at doing the same thing?)
SB:  1 Misdirection (so there's a default wish target against control, although this becomes Last Word in March)
SB:  1 Capsize/Rushing River/Recoil (not sure which)
SB:  1 Coffin Purge
SB:  1 Smother
SB:  1 Naturalize (which obviously becomes Oxide in March)
SB:  1 Berserk
SB:  1 Vampiric Tutor

I think that DA is the right call against decks without DA but against decks that are running it, I think that leaving it out for Swarms is more important.  I'm thinking of this a lot like how you played the Tog mirror back in 2002, where all that mattered was resolving Upheaval.  Here, the point is to resolve Mind Twist or Will.  The big difference is Force of Will, which is why you can't just let all the card drawing through like you could back then, but the idea is still the same.  Swarm makes it so that your Twist/Will will go through, and B2B serves so that their Twist/Will won't.

This Tog basically trades a strength against Mud/Slaver for strength against control

[Abhorsen105]

This is what I played in Waterbury

Mana (24)
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
4 polluted delta
5 island
1 swamp
4 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 mox jet
1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire

Drawing/Search(18 )
4 accumulated knowledge
4 brainstorm
2 intuition
2 cunning wish
1 demonic tutor
1 mystical tutor
1 ancestral recall
1 yawgmoth’s will
1 time walk
1 gaea’s blessing

Disruption(15)
3 back to basics
2 null rod
4 force of will
4 mana drain
2 duress

Kill(3)
3 psychatog

SB:
3 deep analysis
2 pernicious deed
3 ground seal
1 stifle
1 berserk
1 gush
1 naturalize
1 diabolic edict
1 null rod
1 chalice of the void

I made it into top 8 6th seed then lost to Big O. I was expecting way more combo and control, hence the maindecked null rods. The deck really does play out like land destruction (B2B and null rod are great at doing that) and if I wasn't so scared of aggro I would put in stifle. The null rods did come in handy first round against scepter control, but they didn't do much against the swarm of aggro I played against.

Chalice of the Void was really good, especially in the mirror. Right now the only bad matchups are Madness and big O (I beat the madness deck I played against in the tournament, but I got really lucky).

If I were to take it to another tournament I would cut the sideboarded null rod for the abyss (so far it's been great against Oshawa Stompy) and cut the maindecked Gaea's blessing for a pernicious deed.

[Piggy]

JP-how has your testing been going vs. aggro

whoever-did you test the wasteland plan as well as the b2b plan? and why do you prefer the b2b's?
I mean I understand the islands being immune to wastes as well as opposing b2b/blood moon but do you actually prefer them for a random meta or is a reaction to percieved shifts in the ideal meta which we have here on TMD.

[Smmenen]

I explained to many people why I think B2B is bad in Tog.

B2B is an investment that matures after a large counterwar or over time.  B2B in Tog is a huge tempo loss that oculd be better spent on Casting Duress or Xantid Swarm + Mind Twist for Tog + Berserk.

In the control mirrors, b2b means you are playing control - which is a mistake.  In the control mirrors, Tog needs to be playing both control AND beatdown.  B2B pushes you into the control role when you need not be there thus violating the lesson of "who's the beatdown?"

My current Tog list is extremely aggressive, but extremely powerful.

Steve

[eddavatar]

All I can say is, Tog lost way too much by cutting Green or Red. A random Tomod's Crypt can screw up your game math.

[Anders Noer]

While I would love to have room for Back To Basics in Hulk, I simply think there is a problem wanting to do too much with this deck.
We're already being aggro and control. I guess mana denial fits in the "control" category, but taking out consistency in order to add a new level of disruption seems tricky to me - and probably not worth it.

I guess you can't argue with results, but the recent succes of Tog builds, may have been because og the rest of the cards in the deck and not the B2B's. That's hard to tell though, as both regular builds and B2B builds are placing in and out of top8's alike...

On another note, I see differing opinions on the need for off-color Moxen in Tog. I've cut them in my build - partly due to 2 maindecked Deeds. Is off color acceleration really that necessary ?
When the 25 mana generating cards (which seems to be the trend.. too much for me - but then again: I'm european ) include 1 Sol Ring, 4 non blue moxen, 1-5 strip Effects and 1 Lotus + possibly Library, there are only 13-18 blue sources left.
I'd rather have UU ready on turn two consistantly, than 1U on turn one.

I know this is a three colored deck and the deck has other things to do apart from playing blue spells. But blue is still the backbone of the deck. I like to have the option of tapping UU on turn 2 to "counter target spell".
(Brainstorm is a huge mana smoothener as well - what i want to hear opinions on, are the off color moxen.. thx)

(Woot. First post! - Great to have the old forum back!)

[Grand Inquisitor]

Back to Basics was added to Hulk for a very specific reason: Dragon was extremely popular and was doing very well in spite of people's metagaming for it.

Additionally, aggro-control decks like Fish, GAT and EBA were forcing Hulk to play an uncomfortable game, since they were faster, and yet able to disrupt and/or win counter wars.  This allowed them to take 20 points and keep Hulk from comboing out.  In these matchups B2B gives Hulk a way to punish aggro-control for over-extending early.

Against Dragon or other Bazaar-powered decks B2B is meant to be run in place of strip effects, not in addition to them.  The fact that they are also useful against Keeper, Landstill, Slaver, and a multitude of other dual happy decks is just gravy.

[MarkPharaoh]

I have been playing Tog lately, a list very close to Kerz's with only a few minor changes.  I do like B2B in this deck; however, I don't like running it main nor do I want to cut green from the deck to do so so I have 2 in the board.  After playing games against Shock Wave and his Landstill, I don't think that I am removing them from my board anytime soon.

Landstill wants to start attacking with there manlands asap against control which makes B2B a lot more powerful as I was able to lock down several Mishra's more then once during our matches, not to mention Conclaves are automatically shut down.  I have also brought in B2B against Madness and Dragon which I have liked greatly in those matches as well. Although I like the B2B now, I don't think they are going to be very good for long as I have been noticing a lot of decks running more and more basic lands due to Blood Moon and B2B being in mutiple decklists.  So I don't think they're good enough against the entire field to cut green and add them to the main but I do like having a pair of them in the board to bring in against certain matchups.

[TutoreIlluminato]

If the mainly purpose of Back to Basics is shutting down Dragon (= shutting down Bazaar) or even Mishra's Factory and Faerie Conclave, what do you think of Tsabo's Web?
It's cheaper (cc2 instead of 3), it's a cantrip, it does not requires colored mana (you can use Sol Ring, Moxes, or mana drained) and it does not affect your lands (except for Library).
I think that this card deserves testing.
It's never dead (like Btb can be) because at least you can play it to draw a card...and it will affect opponent's manlands and bazaar. I think that 2 slot Sb can be enough

[MarkPharaoh]

I don't like Web at the moment because they can still tap there Factories and Conclaves for mana to play stuff like Nev's Disk whereas it would be a lot harder for them to Cast the Disk under a B2B if timed correctly.  B2B is also pitchable, it's an enchantment so Welder isn't going to touch it and it isn't prone to as much hate as artifacts.  B2B just does more in the current metagame IMO.

[TutoreIlluminato]

Every spell must be timed properly. We have drain, force and duress to protect our spells...it's not so easy to play a disk after our web...and even if disk resoves, we have gained 1 card advantage.
Web let us play 4color-Hulk and doesn't affect our lands...
Against Stax or Mud i don't need Btb, 'cause i think that playing 4 color Hulk gives us very powerful weapons: Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruin above all
I need a card to stop Dragon: Tormod's Crypt, or Tsabo's Web...cause this (with also Bazaar based madness) is the only real trouble for Hulk
Going to 3 colors leave us without Fire/Ice, Reb, Artifact Mutation and Rack and Ruin...a really big loss

[MarkPharaoh]

But if they resolve Disk how many Moxes are they going to blow up?  More then likely they'll come out in the card advantage.

There are a few problems with 4 color Hulk in the current metagame. It has a much weaker manabase and with 4 colors you cannot sport 5 Strip effects which in my opinion, are a MUST in the current field.  Yes, by cutting red you do lose some goodies against Prison but you still have Deed, Naturalize and Crumble(key card, sneaks past a Chalice set at either 2 or 3). But, Prison isn't even that popular right now as I see a lot more Slavery decks nowadays then I do Prison.

With Web against Dragon, they can still cast Compulsion and combo that way.  Also, all they need sometimes is a single activation.  Yes, that can happen with B2B but not as likely because with Web, the Dragon player will try to set there hand up using Tutors and whatnot but it will be a lot harder to accomplish that with B2B as they can only use each Sea and Bayou once whereas with Web they can use there Duals as much as they please.