[Deck Discussion] U/r Trinistax

[Kerz]

One of the decks I don't feel is getting enough attention, especially after the release of Darksteel, is U/r Trinistax. I don't know nor do I claim to know an immense amount of information on this deck, but I am interested in getting a (close to) concrete build, to start tweaking and/or playing.

Why is U/r better than Mud (MonoR)?

The only advantage to going Mono-Red is a rock solid manabase, and access to Blood Moon.

Adding blue doesn't hurt your manabase much, you have access to 8 blue/red producing lands if you want to go that route (Volcanic Island, Shivan Reef), or you can play 4 Volcanic 4 Polluted Delta.Blue gives you Thirst for Knowlege, Ancestral Recall, and Draw-7s, adding a lot of consistancy over Mud's Grafted Skullcaps or Mind's Eyes.  Contrary to what you may think, this deck can even support Blood Moon. The basis of that is that Blood Moon will be hurting the deck you play it against MUCH more than it will be hurting you. In short, it is still a bomb, even though annoying for you sometimes.

I chose to play 3 TriniSphere, seeing they are very bad in multiples. To make room, I went down to 3 Chalices, another card that isn't amazing in multiples per se- it was also really the only thing I could cut.

Another consideration for color-splashing is Black, which gives you Demonic Tutor and Yawgmoth's Will. I don't really feel this is needed, it ruins your manabase and you are only gaining 2 cards, although broken.

Here is the start off point for a list:

//Land
2 Ancient Tomb
4 Mishra's Workshop
4 Volcanic Island
3 Shivan Reef
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland

//Mana Artifacts
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Black Lotus
1 Sol Ring
1 Grim Monolith

//Lock Artifacts
4 Smokestack
4 Sphere of Resistance
4 Tangle Wire
3 Trinisphere
3 Chalice of the Void

//Draw
3 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Memory Jar
1 Windfall
1 Timetwister
1 Wheel of Fortune

//Tutor
1 Tinker

//Engine
4 Goblin Welder

//Win
1 Karn, Silver Golem

//Sideboard
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Rack and Ruin
3 Blood Moon
3 Fire/Ice

Some questions include:

What/How Many Win conditions?
Right now, I think Karn is the best choice for this deck. It is a 1 or 2 turn clock when it hits, and he isn?t too small himself for random blocking pourposes. I cut down to one for space issues, with all the draw it has worked fine. I can see adding a secondary win though, either a second Karn, Pentavus, or Platinum Angel.

What about the manabase?
I?m not sure yet if the Fetchland plan is the better setup- it may be because you can fetch an Island after you sideboard in Blood Moon.

Also, note the sideboard is HEAVILY depending on your metagame, and really isnt set at all yet.

I am interested in your opinions, and your answers to the questions.

Aaron Kerzner

[Kowal]

As far as Trinisphere goes, you really only want to see it in the early game, preferably turn one.  Dinking the Trinisphere count because they're bad in multiples is fine, but suddenly you disallow yourself the ability to see it as early and consistantly so, when you want it most.

Stax has a fundamental problem though in that it's just not doing a lot for a very large portion of the game.  Most decks in type one can break the lock at instant speed before any major dangers are on the table, and some can just win instead (like dragon, or even stupid crap like sligh with instant speed burn spells.)  Without being able to put your opponent on a clock while the lock pieces are in action, I foresee this being a strong deck early in the day that just loses to the better players with better decks later on.

[Ric_Flair]

AHHHH! Where is the Timewalk?  I know that it has become vogue to drop the Walk, but I can't see that as making sense.  There are so many times when this deck is this close to winning.  Walk helps there.  Early on it is a free land drop.  I think it is required.  Why is it missing Kerz?

[Kerz]

It can be used to set up the lock, but it is dead when you have Smokestack or Tangle Wire on the board. Also, seeing you play very few 2-drops and Control decks hate to see it, you will be dropping Chalice for 2 very often. It really isn't synergistic with too many cards in the deck, in my opinion. Again, this is a starting point- what does everyone else think on the subject?

[Dr. Sylvan]

I don't much care for Timetwister's effect on your graveyard. I only see this being a helpful thing against Hulk, and most of the time inhibiting your Welders. How much of a problem has this been in testing? Do you just hold it back if Welder is active?

In my neverending effort to get crap rares turned into mild doses of awesome, [card]Tectonic Instability[/card] has occurred to me as a way to prevent control players from accumulating mana for Drains. Could that fit in the sideboard, or am I showing my inexperience with Prison?

[Kerz]

This deck doesn't rely on Welders nearly as much as, say, Slavery. Welders are awesome, but most of the time the seven cards you draw will be perfectly fine to keep your opponent locked. If you really have the welder love going on, with Smokestack and Tangle tricks keeping your opponent at a near infinite lock, you don't need Timetwister, as you will already win. I belive that the dissynergy between Welders and Timetwister isn't really applicable in most situations.

As for your techy [card] Tectonic Instability [/card], it looks... interesting. I can't say whether it would be good or not, but it DOES cost 5 non-workshop mana. With you having stack/wire/sphere(s) going, that is going to be tough (I know this deck takes pride in its mana production, but don't forget, that is mostly because of workshops, and also note the lack of Mr. InfyColorless- Metalworker.). Also, it is very situational. If you play it too early, they will simply not play anymore lands, forcing you to sack your own 'Stack. If you play it too late, they won't need to play lands.

[Rico Suave]

Personally, I'm not too keen on Grim Monolith.  Being a 2-drop means it cuts into Chalice for 2, and it's also just barely an accelerator.  I'd think this slot could help round out other parts of the mana base.

For a while I ran multiple Sphere of Resistance too.  I eventually dropped them to round out the extras, like having 4 Chalice, 4 Thirst, 4 Waste, etc.

A Mindslaver is good, too.  I would put it under the "win" section, since Welder beatdown is not only realistic, but generally more supportive of this deck's goal--lock the opponent down.

[Kerz]

I still like Sphere of Resistances a lot, they really impair control while you set up the Stacks to come and clean up. It also is another card that rocks combo, but that point is moot because you still have Chalice + TriniSphere. Spheres can also slow down aggro tremendously, and with Tangles, they put you over the top in that matchup. Honestly, I can't find a place where they arn't that good.

After some deliberation, I really think that Trinisphere is a 4-of. I cut a Sphere of Resistance for it- My reasoning is as follows:
1. They are bad in multiples, but once you get one, you can ride its advantage for a long while.
2. You NEED to see one early and consistanly against many decks.
3. It is simply too big a bomb not to put to the max number in your deck. If you see more than one, they can just become stack/wire fodder, although this isn't a great argument.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

Kerz, good stuff...I'm currently playing this deck and here's what I have to say:

Mindslaver is good. Ridiculously good. I Agree COMPLETELY with Rico in adding a mindslaver. My deck differs from yours only I have -1 chalice, -1 karn, +2 Mindslaver. I've playtested the workshop slaver matchup, and the card that makes the biggest difference is the mindslaver. With 28 mana sources, the slaver isn't too bad to support, and a random slaver or tinker just straight up wins the game vs. sooooooooo many decks.

Also, I run 1 more land, upping my mana count to 29. It may just be me, but TOO often I find myself without sufficient mana, or I have the workshop and it gets wasted, leaving my almost equally screwed under a sphere/trinisphere.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Kerz,

I played TriniStax in the Hadley on Saturday.  I basically ran Kevin Cron's list from Ohio except I found room for a Karn (I think I cut Windfall).  I quickly came to similar conclusions as you that:

1) Trinisphere is definitely a 4-of
2) Black wasn't worth the mana-base woes and inconsistency
3) The deck flat out needs a maindeck win condition since it can't win the back two games of a match in time with welder beats.

My biggest disappointment was against aggressive workshop decks like TnT, Affinity-esque beats, etc.

Having welder on the table is certainly an advantage, but it really becomes a matter of your smokestack racing their fat, which isn't a great strategy.

While I think this deck may have the best matchups against the rest of the field, it seems to have trouble against the workshop & welding world.  Of course, if you can drop Trini before they do, you have a distinct advantage, but sometimes even that isn't enough.

[Rico Suave]

I take it you didn't use Mindslaver?

It wrecks both TnT and Affinity, since with TnT you can use their Welders to keep recurring your Slaver.  Depending on the version of Affinity, you can either use their Welders or sac everything to Ravager.

Concerning the maindeck win condition, if you win the first game you're fine for time.  The only problem is if you lose the first game, in which case you can SB in a win condition.  If you lose the first game, it's generally not a long drawn out affair since most decks kill quickly, but you can always just concede a lost game too.  The other thing is to plan your moves out on your opponent's turn, saving time so your own turns are quick.  

Ultimately, a win condition like Karn is not a lock piece, it's not a card drawer, and it's not Welder.  That's what it boils down to.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I take it you didn't use Mindslaver

Correct.  I considered it, but didn't run it because it...

is not a lock piece, it's not a card drawer, and it's not Welder

In retrospect, I guess its quite obviously a lock piece.

Regarding Karn, you're right, but he does serve a purpose as an expensive Gorrilla Shaman and a blocker.  However, he seems more solid as a sideboard option if you lose Game 1.  Thanks for the advice.

On another note, is anyone still running black?

[rvs]

I have a fairly simple question: Why would I want to play this over Slavery (specifically: the control-variant)?

[Smmenen]

The only reason to play Stax is to abuse the raw power of Trinisphere.  Stax is "pre-built" for Trinisphere becuase all of its spells sans Welder cost three or more.

Steve

[Grand Inquisitor]

The only reason to play Stax is to abuse the raw power of Trinisphere.  Stax is "pre-built" for Trinisphere becuase all of its spells sans Welder cost three or more.

Steve

Why is this not enough of a reason?  The card is completely sick.

I'll admit I have a weak understanding of workshop builds past and present.  Is there a slaver-focused build that abuses trinisphere as well?

[Kerz]

@ Rico: I don't think a maindeck Mindslaver is really a good idea. You either play Stax or you play Slaver, not a mix of the two.

@ Morefling: That association is pretty random. Both decks have different good/bad matchups and strategies- while fitting into the same semi-category. Why play Keeper over Tog? Why play Oshawa Stompy over TnT? And the list goes on.

@ Grand Inquisior: Its great we came so similar conclusions, it means that we're both doing something right (or both really suck ). How did you fare in Hadley?

[rvs]

Actually Kerz, I'd say both decks want to achieve the same thing, which is to lock the opponent down. One uses inf. lockparts like trinisphere, tangle wire, smokestack and such, and one uses a recurring mindslaver. Now my question was, why would you play the inf. lockparts over a recurring mindslaver, in a deck that has way more real control parts (since it also has mana drains and fows).
As Steve pointed out, the reason would be trinisphere itself.  

Also, I don't think a "random" slaver would be bad, since it outright wins games. Let's not forget you have a Tinker as well now, so that means you technically play two of them.

[Grand Inquisitor]

I don't think a maindeck Mindslaver is really a good idea. You either play Stax or you play Slaver, not a mix of the two

So far slaver has been good in the aggro and workshop mirror matchups.  There's no real reason why it shouldn't be played in here.

@Kerz,

At hadley I finished 2-3-1, but the record is a little misleading.  In round 5, I was playing the eventual winner for a T8 spot.  He mised a timetwister when I was about to lock him out.  The last round I was putting together a draw-7 GAT build instead of focusing on my O Stompy match (which is as easy as chalice for 2 = win).

In general I'm really inexperienced playing workshop decks.  I made glaring errors, like chalice for 3 when I had a hand full of 3-ofs, and casting tanglewires too early.  I think the deck does have a lot of potential, but I also feel one of its worst matchups (control slaver) may be equally viable against the rest of the field while having a distinct advantage in the match against stax.[/quote]

[Rico Suave]

I still like Sphere of Resistances a lot, they really impair control while you set up the Stacks to come and clean up. It also is another card that rocks combo, but that point is moot because you still have Chalice + TriniSphere. Spheres can also slow down aggro tremendously, and with Tangles, they put you over the top in that matchup. Honestly, I can't find a place where they arn't that good.

Oh, I missed this before.

Yea, Sphere isn't exactly bad in a lot of matches, but neither are the 4th Waste, 4th Thirst, and the 4th Chalice either.

I'm not saying Sphere is bad, in fact I used them for a while, but I find it difficult to include them because the other cards vying for those slots are simply too powerful to not run 4 of.