Keeper Questions!

[Mace]

Ok, I've always wanted to play keeper, so I finally broke down and started to buy the P9.  I want to optimize my deck for my meta (doesn't everyone?), but I have a REALLY weird meta.  I've sort of described it in a few other posts, but I'll lay it all out here for you.

The main archtypes:
1. WEIRD Keeper (usually about 1/3 of the tourney)
2. Suicide Black/Pox (usually 1/3 or so)
3. Sligh
4. Dragon (only one person plays dragon, and he is at every tournament that I go to)
5. Academy - one day I guy showed up and played academy, but we have never seen him again.  According to the owner he stops by about once a year.

What is not in my meta and I doubt I will ever see:
1. TnT - the only one with the cash likes putting power in T2 decks to impress scrubs...
2. Mask
3. Gro, etc.

So, the decks I want to focus on building against are:  WERID Keeper (explained below), Suicide, Sligh, and a little on Dragon.

Now, for the "weird" Keeper.  For some reason, ALL the Keeper decks in my meta are from back in time, like 5 years ago (or a while ago, at least).  Many main deck several disenchants, Jayemdae Tome's, Moat and Abyss, Enlightened Tutor, Seal of Cleansing, Recall, etc.  One deck particular truly revolves around using the Tome to gain overwhelming card advantage, but I think the Paragon version is superior.  Let's look at what I'm trying to run:

//NAME: Mace's Paragon Keeper v1.1
// Mana Sources
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Dust Bowl
        2 Wasteland
        1 Strip Mine
        1 Library of Alexandria
        1 Undiscovered Paradise
        2 Island
        4 Underground Sea
        3 Volcanic Island
        3 Tundra
        2 Flooded Strand
        2 Polluted Delta
// Counters
        4 Force of Will
        4 Mana Drain
        1 Misdirection
// Removal
        1 Balance
        1 The Abyss
        1 Fire/Ice
        1 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Chainer's Edict
// Search/Tutors
        2 Cunning Wish
        2 Brainstorm
        1 Mystical Tutor
        1 Merchant Scroll
        1 Demonic Tutor
// Draw
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Stroke of Genius
        1 Braingeyser
        1 Fact or Fiction
// Broken Stuff
        1 Time Walk
        1 Mind Twist
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Renewed Faith
        1 Gorilla Shaman
// KILL!!!
        2 Morphling
// Sideboard
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Jayemdae Tome
SB:  1 Moat
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Coffin Purge

As you can see, I'm basically using Zherbus' version of the Paragon Keeper, with some slight changes.  I figured I should just try and learn how to use a deck that has been play tested before I start to screw a lot with it.  Here are my questions:

1. Coffin Purge Vs. Ebony Charm in the SB

I think that in my meta Coffin Purge is superior, simply because the only deck I can think of that I would use either Purge or Charm would be Dragon.  Against Dragon all you need to do is remove his Gorger and you can do this with Purge or Charm, but Purge has flashback, so you can do it a second to either get rid of the second dragon or try again if he out counters you on the first one (somehow :lol).  If this was the wrong choice to make, please let me know.

2.  Powder Keg

I would really like to run one main deck, but I'm not sure what I should cut.

3. Jayemdae Tome

After playing my friends Keeper that uses Time, I can see that it can be very powerful once it gets going.  Is it worth running against the matchup?  I don't see any MonoU (or I haven't yet, you never know), but I think it would help against another Keeper deck.  Am I mistaken here?  If I shouldn't run this in the SB what should take its slot?

4. 3 REBs?

I think 3 might be too high for my meta, but I'm not sure.  Keeper is about 1/3 of the meta.  I mentioned earlier that I have never seen MonoU yet, but I suppose it could show sometime.  If I cut this down to 2 what would be a good card to throw in its spot for the SB?

5. Renewed Faith Vs. Zorb

I'm testing Faith, but haven't come to a conclusion on which I think is better.  Does anyone see any advantages for one or the other in my meta?  The only thing that I can think of is that you can drop Zorb early against Sui/Sligh for some chump life gain against Wastelands.

That's it for now

[TunaBoo]

Tome takes 8 mana to draw the first card   This is a little bit much. 12 before you start getting card advantage.

Just keep your oponent's 4 CC artifact off the table, and all is good. Mox monkey can always eat it for 9


Zorb isn't really super, but it does fill a gap. I don't think faith fills this gap as well, but it is an opinion call. I say leave well enough alone   It obviously lost a lot of use with the loss of sylvan. If you get zorb game after game and it never helps you, then give it the boot. Otherwise it does okay in there.

[specialk]

Try Scrying Glass in the Tome spotsince it can be cast first turn with moxen help then activated eot before your 3 third turn.  And if he Fow it on your first turn thast is 2 for 1 card advantage already.  When you are scrying mid to Late Game there is no Bluffing Allowed since you will see they're hand every turn and know when to bait out Counter magic

[Zherbus]

I don't like Tome. Glass is superior as many have already told you, however I don't run that since I already have enough to side in against control with 3 REB, 1 Skeletal Scrying, and possibly Aura Fracture if I'm facing URPhid or BBS. WHen Sideboard'ing, I just want to get rid of dead cards for good cards, not overwhelm any one deck, persay.

Also, Why no BEB? DO you not see Blood Moon anywhere? Is there even any Back to Basics there? If not, run something closer to Azhrei's manabase using 2 duals over the Islands.

As for the Zuran Orb thing, sometimes you gain more than 6 life against Sligh with ZOrb, other times not even 6. It's not even clear to me yet, but then again I haven't had much time to test lately. (The last time I did test, all I relly confirmed was that Future Sight is sexy, after you've already won. In that slot, I prefer Geyser so I can get to the winning position.)

[Mace]

Ok, I'll try testing the Scrying Glass in spot of the tome.

What do you guys think of the coffin purge over the ebony charm?

@Zherbus: I see no Back to Basics, and I have yet to see a blood moon, but the sligh player might run one so I should probably include a Blue Blast in the SB.  What would you recommend taking out for it?  I'm thinking 1 REB since I won't see any BBS.

Here are the changes:

//NAME: Mace's Paragon Keeper v1.1
// Mana Sources
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Ruby
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Mox Jet
       1 Black Lotus
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Dust Bowl
       2 Wasteland
       1 Strip Mine
       1 Library of Alexandria
       1 Undiscovered Paradise
       2 Island
       4 Underground Sea
       3 Volcanic Island
       3 Tundra
       2 Flooded Strand
       2 Polluted Delta
// Counters
       4 Force of Will
       4 Mana Drain
       1 Misdirection
// Removal
       1 Balance
       1 The Abyss
       1 Fire/Ice
       1 Swords to Plowshares
       1 Chainer's Edict
// Search/Tutors
       2 Cunning Wish
       2 Brainstorm
       1 Mystical Tutor
       1 Merchant Scroll
       1 Demonic Tutor
// Draw
       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Stroke of Genius
       1 Braingeyser
       1 Fact or Fiction
// Broken Stuff
       1 Time Walk
       1 Mind Twist
       1 Yawgmoth's Will
       1 Renewed Faith
       1 Gorilla Shaman
// KILL!!!
       2 Morphling
// Sideboard
SB:  2 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Diabolic Edict
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Scrying Glass
SB:  1 Moat
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Coffin Purge

[Arthur King]

im personally playing ebony charm
only because im playing TnT more often
i havent really playtested dragon so i cant really say
but ebony charm is so much more versitile
im sure theres a time where you just want to ping the person for that last point of life and they dont see it coming
but i guess if youre playing dragon, then go for it, although why not just play an extra swords then?

[spin13]

Ebony Charm is probably superior to Coffin Purge -unless- all the TnT players you face run multiple Squees (and you honestly expect to see more than one TnT player per event), or you are playing three Cunning Wishes.  The big difference is that it takes B to remove 3 cards with Charm and that it takes BB to remove 2 cards with Purge.  BB will often mean two turns unless its the late game, in which case having made it that far without needing Purge/Charm means you most likely have won already.  The random other abilities of Ebony Charm will rarely come in handy, but they can't be ignored completely.

 -Eric

[Zelif]

As someone who played the Tome for far too long, it is a terrific card, but the mana can be better spent. I am one of the few who doesn't play Fact or Fiction in this build. The reason I do not play it is that I almost never counter it, unless my opponent's hand is empty, I have extra counters, or I'm at, say, three life against a UR build Almost never. So, I began looking for other cards to fill that slot.
Like many of the others here, I use a Scrying Glass, but only in the board, since a lot of aggro decks, their hand is changing all the time. Yeah, its nice and might get you a card, which against the aggro in my area (a lot) isn't going to save you. Its there to build against slower decks, and keep tabs on counters.
So, now I still do not use (or counter) Fact or Fiction, and use Stroke/'Geyser/Skeletal Scrying/Timetwister in the main. Many will disagree with this, and there are obvious times to side out the Timetwister, (and Skeletal Scrying, for that matter) but I cannot tell you how many times Scrying led to Stroke, led to Braingeyser, led to win lately.
Ah, one other small thing you were also discussing, Ebony Charm. I use neither, as Tormod's Crypt is practically a requirement in our metagame. Additionally, with Timetwister in the main, its partner is the Crypt. I use one Crypt main, and one in the 'board.

My two cents
Darren A. Dew
THE UNION

[Dante]

Mace - based on your breakdown of the environment (1/3 Keeper-ish, 1/3 mono black (suicide/pox), and the rest mostly sligh with 1 definite dragon player, I would do the following:

1. Since you never see Back to Basics and haven't seen Bloodmoon yet, change your 2 Islands to final Tundra and Volcanic.  Also, I would change your Undiscovered to a City of Brass.  These changes will help smooth out casting your non-blue spells.  If BtB and Bloodmoon make appearances, then you can edit the mana back again.

2. If you want to maindeck the keg, just maindeck it without cutting anything.  Keeper isn't like a combo deck or focused aggro deck, 61 cards won't really run any different than 60 (but start adding more than 61 and it changes).  I've been running 61 for 4 years and have done quite well.

3. I would leave in 3 REBs..its better to have cheaper counters than extra expensive mid-game cards.  I would board 3 REBs and either Skeletal Scrying or Scrying Glass (but not both) based on your maindeck.

I would run the following sideboard:
3 REB (Control)
1 Allay
1 Shattering Pulse (possibly sligh, if they run scrolls)
1 Ebony Charm (Dragon)
1 Scrying (either Skeletal or Glass) (Control)
2 Swords to Plowshares (Dragon, Sligh, mono-black)
1 Moat
1 Keg (Sligh)
2 Cop Red
1 Cop Black (mono-black)
1 leftover slot for the following: REB, BEB, Cop Black, Misdirection, Ensnaring bridge, 4th swords, Teferi's Response, Gorilla Shaman, Keg (if you didn't maindeck one).  I wouldn't board anymore graveyard hate unless the one Dragon player becomes a nuisance to you.  Between the counter magic, the charm, and the extra swords, you should be good.

I would board the following way (assuming you maindeck a keg as the 61st card):

Keeper
out: Renewed Faith, 2 Cunning Wish, Abyss, Swords
in: 3 REB, Scrying, any other card better than swords or faith(shattering pulse if they rely on Tome I guess, or depending on the 15th board card)

Suicide:
out: 2 Cunning Wish, Renewed Faith, Fire/Ice
in: cop black, 2 Swords, Moat (this has always worked well for me, despite claims it is too slow and difficult to cast, I've usually never had a problem).

Sligh:
out: 2 cunning wish, stroke, either FOW or Mis-D, Dustbowl, 1-2 more depending on what else you bring in..
in: 2 cop red, 1 keg (2 if you don't maindeck 1), 2 swords, shattering pulse, Moat (if you feel daring).

Dragon:
out: Abyss, 2 cunning wish, renewed faith, possibly Mis-D.
in: 2 swords, 1 ebony charm, depends on board, but BEB (if there) or else REB for their card drawing.

Hope this helps...

Dante

As an aside, if you are playing in an environment that is 2/3 mono-black and old Keeper (tomes, etc), TnT would be a good choice (if you have the cards).

[Freddie]

I agree with Dante about 80%-85%

I think he is right on with going for the last tundra and vol as well as the city... your mana base will be way consistant!

Plus Undiscovered is obviously good VS B2B, but no reason (that I see) to play it, if there is none in your meta.

I have severe reservations about going to 61 cards... if you want to playtest it, go for it, but evertime I draw my 61st card, I keep note, on weather or not I would have just won the game if that would not have been there!

I have run 61 cards in the past, but i always hated it!

I would playtest and see what you can cut if you really need to get that keg in there.

-Freddie

[Dante]

Quote (Freddie @ Jan. 06 2003,16:23)I agree with Dante about 80%-85%

I think he is right on with going for the last tundra and vol as well as the city... your mana base will be way consistant!

Plus Undiscovered is obviously good VS B2B, but no reason (that I see) to play it, if there is none in your meta.

I have severe reservations about going to 61 cards... if you want to playtest it, go for it, but evertime I draw my 61st card, I keep note, on weather or not I would have just won the game if that would not have been there!

I have run 61 cards in the past, but i always hated it!

I would playtest and see what you can cut if you really need to get that keg in there.

-Freddie

I tested the same thing and came to the conclusion that it never really mattered 60 vs 61.  I found that only a couple of times did drawing the 60th card actually cause a loss due to drawing another card 1 turn too late and it was more than made up for the number of really favorable things the card had done.  But each person should definitely test what's best for them.

Dante

[TunaBoo]

61 cards shows weak deck design. There is _NO_ reason to make a deck with more than 60 cards unless it involves battle of wits or 5-color.

[Dante]

Quote (TunaBoo @ Jan. 06 2003,18:53)61 cards shows weak deck design. There is _NO_ reason to make a deck with more than 60 cards unless it involves battle of wits or 5-color.

No, it doesn't show a weak design - do the math.  Statistically, drawing from 61 cards instead of 60 is negligible.  It does, however, only make sense to add a 61st card if that card does something different in your deck (i.e. Moat is my 61st card, his would be Powder Keg), not just more of the rest of your deck.  A sligh deck wouldn't need another bolt or goblin because they're just doing the same thing.  If your 61st card does something new AND powerful for your deck (and with Keepers drawing and tutoring, you'll have a good shot at seeing it), then it very well could be worth it (like maindecking a Moat or Keg).  Really, 61 instead of 60 doesn't affect the statistics of things all that much.

Dante

[TunaBoo]

Yes, I can do the math. I would be a computer science major. And I can tell you, it WILL come up. The entire point of playing with 60 over 80 is consistancy.

Every card you add you lose consistancy. Saying "Oh, I need 61 to have the right mana ratio" or "oh, I can't cut anything" is just showing weak deck design. You need to suck it up and cut something. If not, I will take my advantage of 60 cards

[Rakso]

Running 61 cards means one of two things: indecisiveness or superstition.

Running 62 means you're Jamie Wakefield.

[Vegeta2711]

Of course if the deck design works for you... who cares? Really, just do whatever works for you. Add a 61st card see if you like it, etc etc... just not this stupid arguement AGAIN about the stupid 60 card rule. Hell didn't some of the NG keeper guys have 61 cards in they're Keeper decks for a while? ~_~;

[TracerBullet]

60 cards more often than not is superstition.  Playing 61 or even 62 cards is reasonable if it allows you to tune specific parts of your deck better than you could if you only had 60 cards.  For example, if I need more than 7% but less than 9% of my deck to be critter control of one form or another, i'd have to tweak the number of cards in my deck around until I found the number that works best for me.  Honestly, not everything will hit the right percentages with EXACTLY 60 cards.

[Rakso]

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Jan. 06 2003,19:54)Hell didn't some of the NG keeper guys have 61 cards in they're Keeper decks for a while? ~_~;

Passed off as superstition.

About tuning, the number of restricted cards in Type I is a more fundamental issue. Why would you want to lower your chances of topdecking Ancestral Recall artificially?

And don't tell me you actually tune your deck to the nearest 1% chance of topdecking Swords to Plowshares instead...

[TunaBoo]

Exactly. Think of your best all around card (say recall). Do you want a 1% chance your draw will be a stupid removal or counterspell than a recall? Restricted is what makes the 60 card rule easy to see for the blind.

[TracerBullet]

No, but I'd like to tune to the nearest 1% my chance of drawing a land as opposed to a Yawgwill.

I know when I've hit the right balance of land, or control elements, or card advantage with a certain deck.  Sometimes, not often, but sometimes it'll work out to where it's not exactly 60 cards.

I defy you to make my Pox deck by cutting something.  Believe me, I've tried many a time and have never been successful.  As it stands, it's 62 cards, and none of them can reasonably be cut.  At 62 cards, I have the right manabase.  I have the right amount of kritter kontrol.  The right amount of win conditions.  There's no reasonable way to cut it because each card in the deck serves a very specific purpose.
(For those interested, I'm sure there's a thread on here where the deck is posted.  If not, just PM me.)

[TunaBoo]

Quote (TracerBullet @ Jan. 06 2003,23:30)No, but I'd like to tune to the nearest 1% my chance of drawing a land as opposed to a Yawgwill.

I know when I've hit the right balance of land, or control elements, or card advantage with a certain deck.  Sometimes, not often, but sometimes it'll work out to where it's not exactly 60 cards.

I defy you to make my Pox deck by cutting something.  Believe me, I've tried many a time and have never been successful.  As it stands, it's 62 cards, and none of them can reasonably be cut.  At 62 cards, I have the right manabase.  I have the right amount of kritter kontrol.  The right amount of win conditions.  There's no reasonable way to cut it because each card in the deck serves a very specific purpose.
(For those interested, I'm sure there's a thread on here where the deck is posted.  If not, just PM me.)

I promise I could tune it to 60.

[Mace]

Wow, thanks everyone for the feedback!  Keep it coming .  I have taken everything into account, and here are some decisions I have arrived at.  Let me know what you think:

1. Zuran Orb over Renewed Faith - I tested this out a few games, and Zorb just kept being better.

2. Scrying Glass and/or Skeletal Scrying - People are telling me I should run one or the other.

Let me run this by you guys, apparently the so called "tome" keeper decks also run 4 main deck counterspells.  Since this is the case, are both of these necessary?  If not, I'll go with the Scrying.  I like explosion

3. 2 Islands + Paradise / 2 Duals + City

I think I'm going to have to scout at the tournament before I make this call.  But I'm definately changing the Paradise to a city either way, since BBS WILL NOT be there.

4. No SB Moat

I think right now it is taking up a valuable SB slot, and I can't think of a matchup where I could use it effectively.  The sligh has so much burn, I'm usually winning if I'm in a position to cast it.

5.  Keep the BEB in SB, even if no Blood Moon

Just because it is a nice hoze against sligh .  Are there any other times when this is useful?

6. Should I put in Vamp tutor?

It would be useful against sligh and sui, which is most of the meta.  But it would blo against keeper, which is a good part of the meta.  What do you guys think?  If I put it in, what would be a good slot to take out?

@Dante: Unfortunately, I do not have the cards for TnT.  I'm barely managing to get the power for Keeper alone .  The extra Mox would kill me  

So, here is the updated decklist, tell me what you think:

//NAME: Mace's Paragon Keeper v1.2
// Mana Sources
      1 Mox Sapphire
      1 Mox Ruby
      1 Mox Pearl
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Black Lotus
      1 Sol Ring
      1 Dust Bowl
      2 Wasteland
      1 Strip Mine
      1 Library of Alexandria
      1 City of Brass
      2 Island / 2 Duals (scout first)
      4 Underground Sea
      3 Volcanic Island
      3 Tundra
      2 Flooded Strand
      2 Polluted Delta
// Counters
      4 Force of Will
      4 Mana Drain
      1 Misdirection
// Removal
      1 Balance
      1 The Abyss
      1 Fire/Ice
      1 Swords to Plowshares
      1 Chainer's Edict
// Search/Tutors
      2 Cunning Wish
      2 Brainstorm
      1 Mystical Tutor
      1 Merchant Scroll
      1 Demonic Tutor
// Draw
      1 Ancestral Recall
      1 Stroke of Genius
      1 Braingeyser
      1 Fact or Fiction
// Broken Stuff
      1 Time Walk
      1 Mind Twist
      1 Yawgmoth's Will
      1 Zuran Orb
      1 Gorilla Shaman
// KILL!!!
      2 Morphling
// Sideboard
SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  1 Scrying Glass
SB:  2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Ebony Charm

[TunaBoo]

Moat = good if it gets out vs sui and void. Also vs. random aggro, and TNT if you kill the engine. (wonder).

I say 1 COB and 1 UP no matter what. The 4 color lands are key, and either one guarentees that you will get the colors you need.

[Arthur King]

Quote      2 Flooded Strand
     2 Polluted Delta

is there any particular reason youre playing this?
just a thought
why not 4 of one?

[TunaBoo]

Quote (Arthur King @ Jan. 07 2003,00:47)

Quote      2 Flooded Strand
     2 Polluted Delta

is there any particular reason youre playing this?
just a thought
why not 4 of one?

If he has no basic lands of either type, maybe it is some secret tech. Makes you more resilient to stuff like haunting echos.

   

[Mace]

Quote Arthur King: "is there any particular reason youre playing this?
just a thought
why not 4 of one?"

Not really, but the only basic lands I will ever run will be islands, so it really doesn't matter.  I just happen to have two of each because I got them all through drafting, and it just came out that way

[Dante]

Mace - your maindeck looks solid/standard.  I really think you need more creature control in your board, especially if 1/3 is mono-black and maybe 20% or more is sligh.  I really think you should cut one of the skeletal scrying/scrying glass slots for another Swords or Keg or possibly the BEB.  I think against keeper, 3 REBs plus one of the scryings will be a good side.

Dante

[Mace]

How does this sideboard look Dante:

SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  1 Powder Keg
SB:  2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Ebony Charm

or

SB:  3 Red Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Skeletal Scrying
SB:  1 Shattering Pulse
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
SB:  1 Misdirection
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  2 Powder Keg
SB:  2 Circle of Protection: Red
SB:  1 Circle of Protection: Black
SB:  1 Ebony Charm

Can you go over the pro's and con's of running either an extra Keg or STP's?  I'm having a hard time making up my mind.  Thanks for the feedback

[Dante]

Well, you said your environment was 1/3 weird keeper, 1/3 mono-black, rest being sligh, 1 dragon deck....

Stp is better vs suicide and good vs sligh
Keg is better vs sligh, not so great vs suicide
Neither is very good against keeper (assuming standard keeper with 1 shaman and 2 morphlings.  If they side in things like dwarven miner, who knows).

Personally, I think to have 3 plows AND two kegs vs sligh, but in your case it seems like plow is better because it's good against sligh and suicide.

Dante