$T4KS: "The Four Thousand Dollar Solution"

[Toad]

2 > Stax had some bad matchups. Rector Trix, Academy and GATr were bad ones. Sligh and RG can be hard if you don't keep the right hand. TNT too if you don't manage to get an early Triskelion on the board and/or active Welders.

3 > Of course, the deck runs 29 mana sources. But most of the other spells are must counters for MonoU. The typical counter plan of MonoU is 1 counter on turn 1, 1 counter on turn 2, then 2 counters after. With it's high mana count, Stax is able to play 2 first turn threats and/or 2 second turn threats. You can easily sneak a Welder after baiting for Force of Will, nullifying their counters. And MonoU's only removal is the really slow Powder Keg. We don't compare Stax's threat density with 8-land Stompy's one, for sure. All what we want to say is that Stax can play much more threats than MonoU can play counters.

4 > Stax can drop a first turn Blood Moon more often than TNT, thanks to a better mana acceleration. And when going first, you have the Spheres of Resistance too, which is something TNT doesn't have. That's why Stax can beat Academy more often than TNT does.

5 > I know Stax is going to be one of the decks to beat now, and artifact hate will be in almost every sideboard. Even then, I think Stax will be stronger than before. Stax's worst nightmare was GAT/r, and GAT/r is dead. Decks will start packing artifact hate, but this doesn't mean Stax will be unable to win games. Everybody packs Keeper hate in his sideboard, from Blood Moons to Red Elemental Blast and Back to Basics. And Keeper is still a strong deck. I've played against decks with 4 MD Shaman, 4 SB Naturalize and 2/3 SB Sex Monkey. I've won. Hate is not everything. Stax has answers to hate, and Stax packs a lot of hosers in his SB.

Matt

[MoreFling]

on 2) It's funny actually, since why is Trix soo bad? They can be broken, but you can be just as broken to fuck them out of the game.

Our testing has really shown different results (although I'll admit, I'm using a slightly different listing). Any clue what the Trix player could be doing wrong, or what you guys might be doing different?

[Maxx Matt]

@smmenen: great article! yours is one of the better list i see playing around the world from months! and your article s very effective. the only reason i write here is:  how could you improve the Not So Bad Matchup agianst TnT? on the chart stax and tnt uses the same weapon: Goblin Welder...

but tnt can tutor them very fast and you need to draw-draw-draw-draw alot to search one or two of them in play.
so opppnents welder are in play faster than yours, and you can't tutor trisk or "living moat" to kill them or slow down artifact recursion.

otherwise tnt can tutor triskelion to kill your welder, while some fatties are beating you down.

the permanent development is similar for the two decks and the draws and "turn" alot with your Meditate...

the solution are the Rack and Ruin from the side, but if you don't see them, juggs smash this ( beatiful ... really beatifull) deck without too much difficulty

am I miss something?

my 2 cent


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Maxx Matt
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PS: again, a well timed Jester Cap ( that is isn't unusual in TnT or Stax Build... ) is game because you lose karn, trisk and jar/Y. Will.... and decking the opponent shouldn't always be possible...

i hope the side will contain a second or a third Karn to reinforce winning condition!

[Rakso]

Quote (Maxx Matt @ July 03 2003,08:22)@smmenen: great article! yours is one of the better list i see playing around the world from months!

Heh... amazing how it was kept under wraps for a couple of months.

[Toad]

Quote (Maxx Matt @ July 03 2003,08:22)

Quote the solution are the Rack and Ruin from the side, but if you don't see them, juggs smash this ( beatiful ... really beatifull) deck without too much difficulty.

You really don't have to fear a first turn Juggernaut that much. You have the weapons to fight against that, even unsideboarded. I've won game going second and facing a first turn Dark Ritual Illusionary Mask Phyrexian Dreadnought. Drop an early Smokestack, keep adding a counter every turn even if that will wreck your board too, back it up with a Tangle Wire, and those critters won't annoy you. No real need for Rack and Ruin.

Quote but tnt can tutor them very fast and you need to draw-draw-draw-draw alot to search one or two of them in play. so opponents welder are in play faster than yours, and you can't tutor trisk or "living moat" to kill them or slow down artifact recursion.

TNT runs 4 Welders and 4 SoTF. We run 4 Welders, 4 Draw7, 4 Meditate and 1 Demonic Tutor. It's not hard to have a Welder into play before TNT. Furthermore, even if Welders are the key in this matchup, Stax is not TNT. Stax can win without Welders. They are just a tool that help you to build your lock.
With your draw engine, finding Triskelion is not that hard. And you have two tutors to get it (DT and Tinker).

Quote PS: again, a well timed Jester Cap ( that is isn't unusual in TnT or Stax Build... ) is game because you lose karn, trisk and jar/Y. Will.... and decking the opponent shouldn't always be possible...

Last time I checked, Goblin Welder were 1/1 that can attack. I have no Triskelion, no Karn and no Masticore in my SB.

[urza's child]

Quote (Rakso @ July 03 2003,11:46)

Heh... amazing how it was kept under wraps for a couple of months.

unlike the fucking slurpy deck huh, why didnt you write an article about this???

anyways, even though i saw this before you posted, great read, I hope that its in there somewhere (I cant remember if it is or not) That this deck makes your opponent want to kill themselves, and thats the only pleasure out of it. When i used to play stax i found it EXTREMELY boring. Even moreso than dragon.dec I know a lot of other people feel this way, but i just thought i should point this out, which I feel is one of the largest bad parts about the deck

[David Hernandez]

There's more discussion on this deck type here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....0;st=80

and here: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....ry99825

the build i played at national's is almost the same as $T4KS.  Toad, Smmenen, and I have played similar builds and finished First, Top 4, and Top 8 at tourney's with as many as 58 people, so the build works well.

to throw my 2 cents in, the deck can be so consistently explosive that the opponent will never have an opportunity to find an answer before they are locked down.  

IMO, U/R/b (tutor/yawgwill) is the best current build and is going to be very tough to beat for a while.  The Shining and Rector Trix can be problematic, but they're not unbeatable.

@Maxx: Juggernauts fall to Tanglewire and Smokestacks and Welders...this deck just works.  Is it possible that TnT will go off first?  sure, but Stax (in this type of configuration) is going to be a powerhouse.

of course, there are several very strong decks available that are winners, more so when piloted correctly.  Stax is one of those.

Dave.

[Maxx Matt]

first of all, i have a friend that win or made top4 in a All Powered Metagame, for at least 2 months, so i don't need to be regarded about the Power of tis Beatifuld Deck. I'll lose with my powered Keeper so much against this deck that i change the side and the main deck a bit to be able to face more artifact treats...

what i'm saying is:

Reading the ( great ) article and reading your previuos posts, i'm only a little bit astonished how some possible game problems tend to be covered by an obscure cloud and they would be solved only on chart...  

due to the fact that TnT should be, with any combo deck, one of he greatest enemy of this deck, I try to articulate better the scenario that Smmemen paint with is article

if i'm sure that, as toad said

Quote You really don't have to fear a first turn Juggernaut that much

I should add, that a turn one JUggs, a turn two Welder + FattY, a turn 3 SoTF or other >Bomb ( Karn, Colossus, Trisk Recursion ) , backuped by one or two moxes to nullify or slow down Wires and Spheres,  keep you so low on life in 2 turns that Stacks not so often could remove all the treats the TnT bring in play...

i'm not saying that one of the two decks is better or best equipped to fight the other, only that a deck explosive as you and with some of your same weapon, should be feared more and more.

@david: i know that "this deck just works".  it's plain and simple. i don't want to say the contrary, but what can't let It "Do SOme NAsty Artifacts Aand Win?":
A combo deck like Academy  that have a superior mana/permanents ratio development, a combo deck like Rec-Trix, that wreck Stacks' hand with duress, terapy and could sacrifice an early rector to Smokestack "for the Winning", or an other explosive aggro deck as TnT.

they are the only thinks that I realize to be deadly for this deck and are the solution to bad situation that i wolud have the pleasure to discuss here

even TnT pack in wires and/or sometimes Sphere.
and didn't seems to me that his own Juggs are so slowed down when i face TnT... and two juggs, casted via workshop  plus moxen are out of the range of your stacks and the wires should not tap them more than one turn.

[Toad]

I remember PsyDuck mentionning TNT as being his worst nightmare with DuckTape. That's probably true, but he was running a lot of crappy artifacts (from Urza's Bauble to Tsabo's Web), some jankiness (Oath of Scholars) and had, imho, and ill conceived mana base. Nevertheless, I understand why you (Maxx)  consider has a potential bad matchup. TNT can drop a huge amount of permanents, smash you with a first turn Juggernaut, and cast a second on turn 2, etc... In fact, TNT can do something like what you mentionned :

Quote I should add, that a turn one Juggs, a turn two Welder + Fatty, a turn 3 SoTF or other >Bomb ( Karn, Colossus, Trisk Recursion ) , backuped by one or two moxes to nullify or slow down Wires and Spheres,  keep you so low on life in 2 turns that Stacks not so often could remove all the treats the TnT bring in play...

Yes, TNT can do broken things. But Stax can do to, and more often TNT can. Stax can drop a Sphere of Resistance and a Smokestack on his first turn for example. Or a first turn Smokestack, second turn Tangle Wire + draw7. This is Type One, broken things happen. I've done intensive testings against TNT and found that It was not *that* bad (and for sure, not Stax's worst matchup), and you can even claim a positive win/loss ratio with training and good playskills. Remember when TNT emerged ? Lots of Keeper players feared it, feared the first turn Juggernaut. And now ? TNT is strong, but players have adapted their playstyle to fight it. Keeper uses Swords to Plowshares to fight Juggernauts. Stax can use Tangle Wire early game, Smokestack then and even Welders. Of course, this is not always enough. But claiming Stax is weaker now GAT is gone because of the come back of TNT is not an argument. Run Rack and Ruin or Hurkyl's Recall in your sideboard. Try maindeck Fire/Ice to kill Welders or tap fatties. You've got a lot of solutions.

Matt

[David Hernandez]

Maxx, i definitely agree with you regarding the power of TnT. I played it exclusively until I started running Stax.  Now that the environment has changed, I still believe that the Stax deck is going to be a major player against the field.

You said

Quote they are the only thinks that I realize to be deadly for this deck and are the solution to bad situation that i wolud have the pleasure to discuss here

So here are some cards that i feel work well in the sideboard.  Toad already mentioned several solutions available for dealing with other decks.  Blood Moon, Tolarian Academy, REB, and Rack and Ruin won me the day against Academy.

A second Triskelion available was the key to winning 2 other matches.  Wasteland was a great sideboard tech for me, though some other TMDer's want to run them Main Deck.

Masticore was a game breaker.

Anyway, i do see your points regarding other decks having some answers to Stax, but i still feel the deck is positioned to win against the field.  This discussion definitely helps me to look closely at what i have decided to run, so that i can tweak it for optimal performance.  Thanks for your great comments.  

Dave.