Should Academy Rector Be Restricted?

[MolotDET]

God, I love HengeWolf.

[Triple_S]

If Rector is going to get the restriction axe it will be due to potential for the deck to get a 1st turn kill w/o its opponent even getting a turn.  On Saturday at GenCon I had heard the rumor from a few people that they were considering this, along w/ a few other possible restrictions (both cunning and burning wish, intuition, merchant scroll).  Then Thorme had the misfortune of losing with out taking a turn while Buehler was watching the match.  An exhibition like that, when it seems clear atleast to me that Wizards is attempting to cater to the t1 audience and get more people involved, could warrant a restriction since it adds additional fuel to the popular perception of t1:  that you just win on t1.

[Smmenen]

So twenty four of you so far beleive it should be restricted.  If Rector is Restricted, it almost follows as part of a logical syllogism that Workshop need be restricted.  Is that what you guys want as well?

Steve

[DarkCrusader]

Nothing should change. Everything is good and there are no need for changes.

Rector decks aren't dominating the format like GAT. And people side plenty of hate towards any deck running Rector.

As for the wishes, they aren't broken like most of you said. Nobody has truely broken a wish yet.

As for workshop, never. I just got 4 of these bad boys and I see no need for there restriction. They help keep the environment balanced. Please don't take away what I worked so hard to get.

[Ruboonia]

Quote (Smmenen @ July 31 2003,15:04)So twenty four of you so far beleive it should be restricted.  If Rector is Restricted, it almost follows as part of a logical syllogism that Workshop need be restricted.  Is that what you guys want as well?

Steve

Please Steve, don't say that!

$500 down the drain?  

Seriously, I don't think Rector needs to be restricted.  What needs to be banned is Yawgmoth's Bargain.  Maybe put an errata on Rector so it doesn't fetch black enchantments?

The same is true with Tolarian Academy.  Why restrict 95 cards to weaken the deck to the point that nobody plays it anymore when you could just ban the card itself?

Here's a little conversation that basically sums up my opinions:

Ruboonia: dragon should be banned
herby: wizards would ban land to stop dragon from working
herby: they always ban the wrong card

[Rico Suave]

The idea is that wizards doesn't want to ban cards from T1.  They say "it's like banning cards from Magic", which they don't like doing barring ante/flipping cards.  It's a rule they follow, just like they don't errata things anymore.

Personally, I enjoy playing combo.  It's been the first time in ages that a combo deck has been viable without distorting the format.  Every other archetype has had years of playing already, give combo a chance.

At anyrate, I'm not exactly sure as to why restricting Rector would lead to restricting Workshop as well.  My guess is that they'd be restricting Rector based on it being a tutor, and they restrict tutors.  So that would lead to Workshop being a broken mana producer, and wizards would restrict Workshop for simply being one?  Is that where you were going with that, or am I missing something?  

I'm not trying to fall on either side of the arguement, I'm just trying to understand how you're getting to the Workshop bit.

[Fever]

The sad part is, if they DO restrict Rector, players will just switch to Burning Tendrils variants. What im saying is, we dont even know what the best possible combo deck is yet, right now Rector isnt looking nearly as scary since everyone started to sb Coffin Purge. If it ends up that the non-Rector builds, which are more Academy-like, are better then what is the DCI gonna do?

Also, restricting Workshop would be dumb. TNT is slowly fading, so the only top deck that really abuses it is Stax(and maybe MUD). While these decks are excellent, they are not dominant, but merely among the contenders. Of course, one cant forget how retarded the DCI is, after all, these are the people that restricted Earthcraft  

[wuaffiliate]

Earthcraft is sooooooo broken 4L


seriously though, the format is very balanced only thing is control is weakened which will change, control will find a way.

[Smmenen]

I don't want Workshop restricted either.  It would be a terrible mistake.  Thank goodness Buehler agrees.  But if they restrict Rector...there might be alot more pressure to restrict Shop

Steve

[Katzby]

Quote The same is true with Tolarian Academy.  Why restrict 95 cards to weaken the deck to the point that nobody plays it anymore when you could just ban the card itself?

Yeah, but most of these so-called 95 cards flat out suck, anyway.  If Academy were banned, who among us would truthfully be glad that they could finally use multiple Crop Rotations, Frantic Searches and Mind over Matters?  Not I.

Banning cards sets a very, very dangerous precedence.  Let's consider, say, Ancestral Recall.  If the DCI banned Ancestral Recall, then we could then realistically talk about unrestricting Mystical Tutor and Vampiric Tutor, and keeping Merchant Scroll unrestricted.  Likewise, let's consider Black Lotus, Moxes, Ring, Vault, Crypt, Monolith and Petal.  If these were banned, then maybe some of the more mana-heavy cards on the restricted list (Yawgmoth's Bargain, Time Spiral, Memory Jar, etc) could come off.

If Academy were banned simply to allow other cards to be removed from the restricted list, then there's no reason that more cards couldn't be banned using the same logic.  Do we really want the DCI to consider banning the cards that define type 1?

To me, this is fundamentally a question of security.  With the situation as it is now, I am relatively confident that my valuable cards will stay valuable for years to come.  The second that type 1 cards become ban-able, that security I feel would drop through the floor.

Quote I don't want Workshop restricted either.  It would be a terrible mistake.  Thank goodness Buehler agrees.

Out of curiosity, where did you hear about this?  It occured to me the other day that the DCI hasn't restricted a truly valuable card in a very long time.  What was the last card worth more than $20 to recieve a restriction?  Mana Crypt?  It seems to me that WOTC doesn't want to step on the toes of type 1 players any more than is absolutely necessary.  I think this is relatively compelling evidence for Mishra's Workshop's case.


Katzby

[Ric_Flair]

Okay I think it is time that we all acknowledge the elephant in the room--No one wants to ban cards they like or cards they spent lots of money on.  This is perhaps the dumbest reason EVER for not banning cards.  I think that people should be forced to make arguments other than these dumbass comments as to why a card or cards should or should not be banned.  Step up, people.  Think before you write something stupid.  It is like saying in a divorce hearing "But your honor, my mistress gave way better blow jobs" as a defense.

If Rector goes, so too should Workshop.  It is crazy broken.

[Fever]

No, what REALLY needs to stop is people bitching about Workshop simply because their decks cant beat Stax or TNT. THAT my friends, is bullshit. Workshop is in no way worthy of restriction. The fact that your pet deck is raped by Stax is irrelevant, a card needs to be restricted based on its power level alone. The problem is when people start to let their personal hatred for certain archetypes cloud their judgment of what is overpowered.

When Stax starts to DOMINATE the metagame, let me know, i may change my mind.\n\n

[Toast]

@ ric

I really find it to be nothing like using that as a defense, something more like your honor I bought this entire fucking house she can take the kids but there is no way she should get the house.

If restricting workshop hurt its value greatly (more than a 25 % decrease in card value) which is what I expect would happen...I for one would at least contemplate quitting magic...why the hell should I keep shelling out money for a game that keeps nuking the value of all my investments? I wouldn't be suprised if others feel this way as well. The second they start restricting very expensive cards it causes an uncertainty...where will they stop...how do I know the beta illusionary masks I just blew my life savings on (referencing thread in community not real life experience) won't suddenly be worth shit?

If Workshops were part of a format breaking combo then fine but they aren't and the limitations of workshop will make it so that it never is. I would rather see welder, smokestack, sphere, tangle wire, and survival all restricted than see workshop restricted.

Workshop is just as broken as Mana Drain and Illusionary Mask...these cards are staples of the format and they are only usable in a certain style of deck which prevents these cards from being powerful enough to be restricted.

EDIT: I got sidetracked..."Death to Rector, Death to combo" -the words of a true aggro player

[Smmenen]

If Workshop were restricted it would become a $20 card overnight.  

Second, I will point out that Kevin Cron with Stax went 7-1 in the Swiss - first place at the end of round 8.  

I do not think Workshop should be restricted, but I have a feeling that at least 30% of the poeple on these boards think so.  

@Katzby: Buehler was asked what he thought about Workshop and he replied that it wasn't broken enough.

Like I said earlier, Workshop and Mask have too much value to do anything about unless they are totally distorting the format - which they are not.  

My question is: since when did our criteria for restricting cards fall so much?  26 People want Rector Restricted.  Doesn't the deck have to have proven itself to be dominant before we swing the axe?  

Frustrated,

Steve Menendian

[Monotone]

Toast

Quote why the hell should I keep shelling out money for a game that keeps nuking the value of all my investments?

I was not aware magic cards were investments.  Are other expensive hobbies investments or simply magic alone?  The investment argument is total bullshit.  People buy their magic cards to play and have fun, not help them retain wealth.

[Toast]

I voted for Rector to get the axe...I am not sure whether it actually needs it but I would never knowingly vote for an integral part of a combo deck to stay unrestricted...die all of you...long live the tubbies

[Smmenen]

Toast.  I am not sure you understand.  If you restrict Rector - it will be like removing the Velocorapters from Jurassic Park.  All you will remember is the T-Rex.  That would leave Workshop with a large bullseye on its card face.  I think Restricting Rector leads us down the path to Restricted Workshop.

Then what are we left with?  I'll tell you.  A bunch of degenerate Combo decks and some weird Control decks - a ripe formula for Mono Blue to do well.  And you know what?  That will only last until the next broken stupid deck is found, and then you won't have precious Stax to keep Combo decks in line.  Stax provides a CRITICAL metagame role right now, IMO.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Rebel428]

Assuming I understood it the way he intended, here is Smmenen's point stated more clearly: People aren't pushing for Workshop's restriction right now because they are making a bigger deal out of Rector.  If Rector becomes restricted, people will naturally move on to what they believe is the next most degenerate thing - in this case, Workshop.

As far as my view, I don't think any immediate action needs to be taken - tournament results have shown no reason to restrict anything right now.  While the preemptive restriction of Mind's Desire was a good idea, too much preemtive/premature restriction cannot be healthy for the format.

On the other hand, Rector definitely has a LOT of potential to be abused in the future.  It is highly likely that additional ways to efficiently kill the Rector and more broken enchantments to fetch with it will be printed.  While I'm not in favor of restricting based on speculation, it's still something to look at.  Also keep in mind what someone else (I believe HengeWolf) said: Randy knows what's coming in the next few sets - who knows if one of them isn't something totally broken with Rector?

P.S.  My apologies if I've accomplished nothing but reiterate other people's ideas.  I just wanted to share what I thought.

[Milton]

Quote I was not aware magic cards were investments.  Are other expensive hobbies investments or simply magic alone?  The investment argument is total bullshit.  People buy their magic cards to play and have fun, not help them retain wealth.

While I don't view Magic as an investment, may of our local friendly area card shops view magic cards as commodities.  The greater the swing in the market for singles, the greater chance of one of our friendly area local card shops getting hosed and going out of buisness.  Wizards, if anything, wants the value of old cards to be retained to prevent these swings.  It's not good for their retailers, which in turn is not good for the game.  So, I suspect that they would put in more serious thought as to restricting a valuable card than they would in restricting a card like Rector.

Anyway, it doesn't look like anything is going to happen.  We would have heard by now.

By the way, I voted Yes for Rectors restriction.  It's as good as Tinker in the current environment.  In fact, it's probabally more difficult to stop.\n\n

[Toast]

@monotone

whether you like it or not the collectables market is a viable thing to invest in...I mostly play the game and investment was probably not the right word in my situation...still I would hate for them to screw store owners and me more importantly by nuking card value.

@ smennen

I do understand...my restrict rector statements were more spite for combo than anything else. I really think unrestricted rector is a good thing.

[HengeWolf]

Disclaimer: This is a mild rant. It has been rated C for controversial. It may contain mild negative remarks about vintage. It is meant to foster discussion and understanding, and not merely to complain. No TMD members were harmed in the making of this rant. You have been warned.

Quote (Toast @ July 31 2003,19:08)why the hell should I keep shelling out money for a game that keeps nuking the value of all my investments?

This is precisely why I quit playing vintage IRL. This sense of total risk-free monetary entitlement is the worst thing about the format as a whole.  

Sorry Toast, it's nothing personal, but you're proving my point perfectly.  To be fair, it's a natural reaction. Years ago, I was known to voice similar sentiments. However, I firmly believe said reaction to be flawed, and nowhere close to being in the best interest of the format.

Did anyone complain when Mask and Workshops' values rose by five times or more in just a few months? Only those who didn't buy them sooner, if I recall. Now there's some serious cash that a bunch of people just made, because they happened to be sitting on their ass holding the right cards. It's called speculation, and it goes both ways. Try telling the stock market that it must only go up, and NEVER down. It's unrealistic and unnatural to expect that.

If we're going to throw fits over the possibility of a card being devalued, under the pretense that some stores or individuals might lose money, then what about right now, when stores and individuals are making a killing off the same cards? Half the stores on the net speculate like hel, selling below NM condition UL Loti for $500+. Card prices are way up and people are cashing in. If *collectors* and *speculators* are allowed to make what amounts to free money (in a risk free environment) based on PLAYERS discovering new viable decks (like Mask and TnT), then they shouldn't cry if the same market that's currently making them rich suddenly gives them a little bloody nose. That's like saying you're allowed to win, but losing is forbidden. The only guys that would take a huge hit would be the ones sitting on two dozen Loti, happily selling them for $200+ above median at a rate of one every six months.

Realistically, how much will the average store have banked by now off these cards, compared to how much they stand to lose? In most cases, I'm sure they still come out way ahead.

I was there for the great Chronicles debacle in '94, some local shops lost out on tons of cards, but none of them went under. It's business, it's not a free gravy train.

Personally, I refused to pay $90 each for a playset of cards that went for $30 each two months earlier, despite the fact I really wanted to play TnT. I didn't feel like taking the risk; I had no intentions of selling the cards as a commodity as soon as the price spiked even higher, and I knew that in the long term their value would decrease again. Or maybe it won't, but I calculated the risk, and I didn't like it.

Many others have decided to take the risk, yet now they act as though they are *entitled* to buy the cards without actually risking anything. That could potentially apply to anyone who's ever bought a card that costs more than $20.

I even empathize to a degree; without the somewhat hollow promise of "investment," I think a lot fewer people would be paying so much for these cards. One word describes that: Volatile.

Perhaps I'm a naysayer, but I think the Vintage secondary market is the 90's stock exchange and the dot.com bubble all rolled into one. Eventually one of three things will happen.

1) The format will suck, no one will play, and we'll all lose money. Remember the whole "critical mass" argument? It's inevitable. Every year the format gets more redundant and inches further toward the line between "oldschool that's now considered broken" and "degenerate in a way Garfield never intended."

2) The format will severely alter itself as it has done in the past, several decks will no longer be viable, and some of us will lose money. This is guaranteed to happen. Some artifact or enchantment in Mirrodin could easily force the issue on restricting workshop, rector, or any number of cards. And if not Mirrodin, how long will we wait?

3) They will reprint the cards, and we'll lose money. Don't say it will never happen; that's only being complacent. I suppose it's possible that the market will crash due to other circumstances at some unforeseen point, and then the reprint will hit, if that's any consolation.

Personally, I abhor the fact that card price has such a warping effect on the format. Players routinely refuse to consider the cards objectively, purely because they spent an exhorbitant fee and now they feel entitled to the option to sell with no loss when they get bored. I'm not saying this is how everyone looks at the game, but every thread that talks about restricting, banning, errata, or anything that might alter "$3000 pet deck X" always draws several people saying: "They can't kill my deck or card of choice. I spent too much money for them to kill it!"

My point; that's no argument.

Like it or not, the ridiculous price of the cards dictates policy for the entire format moreso than any other single factor. I've never seen any other game, ever, that's in such a bizarre state of being. It's a disgrace, honestly. If all that nonsense went away, then and only then would vintage be something resembling "the best format."

Just to clarify: I don't think they should restrict anything until it's proven to be rampantly abusive. Personally, from what I've seen, I definitely don't think Workshop should be restricted, and I think Rector should merely be watched closely. However, in the long term it's probably inevitable that those cards will be restricted as "critical mass" approaches.

I'm not arguing that anything be changed, because I know from years of dealing with this that it won't be changed. Vintage might have to destroy itself first. No offense to anyone, but to argue against the status quo with a vintage player is like arguing with a cockroach that radiation is bad.  And I mean that in the nicest way.

People who play this format seriously are "selected" for it; what makes it distasteful to many players is actually what attracts them, namely "broken" decks and rare, horridly expensive cards. Asking them to change it to accomodate more people takes something away from their own experience. I understand and respect that.

All I'm saying is give these issues some thought before you spend lots of cash. I'm sure most of you already have. I still have a lot of money tied up in vintage, and you know what, in the end I'll probably "lose money" because I don't feel like parting with some of my cards. It happens, and I'm prepared to let it happen. I didn't buy my lotus with prospects of a +20% return. IMO, that's the only way to go. And that's the end of this production.

[Often Lost]

Restrict the fucker!

[Monotone]

God bless you HengeWolf.  You say everything I feel about that issue perfectly.

[SergentBeatstick]

I believe that rector is not the problem card in this scenario.  It is a fragile way of getting BROKEN enchantments into play.  Lets face it, if you resolve bargain you will win.  Rector makes your opponent deal with you "casting" it up to 5 times.  It is apparent that any game swinging card like bargain should be removed, not the little monkey who gets it.  They could also just errata illusions to say "The OWNER of Illusions of Gradier loses 20 life when it leaves play" versus the current wording.  I could be wrong but rector is capable of playing around with tormods crypt and coffin purge, versus..playing....around.... your opponents...bargain....?  Seems likely thats not gonna happen.

[TracerBullet]

And Black Lotus isn't broken cause it's simply a means of accelerating other Broken cards...

[kl0wn]

Will you people stop asking for things to be restricted already?

Jezuz fucking Krist...

It's like you people don't know how to play Type 1. You have to adapt to the fucking environment. Don't try to force the environment to adapt to you.

It's like...you people want to restrict everything until Stompy is good, then you'll want to restrict Rancor.

There's a way to shut down every deck out there, you just have to fire up the neurons and find it. Do a little leg work. Put in some elbow grease. Yeah, you might have to do some hating, but the environment is self-correcting if you give it the opportunity.

Keep in mind, I don't play Agony and I fear the matchup, but that's one of the many things that this game is about: overcoming obstacles. All it means is that you have to actually put forth effort to keep on top of things. That's it. Fucking hell...it really is that simple.

[head13]

Hey,

I think this is a very interesting topic. I for one will not vote on this topic.  It doesn't relate to me.  Here we got these morons called R & D that control OUR game.  They don't play magic, they create the crap for us to play it. So, Why in the hell don't we make our own format.  One that those morons called R & D can't touch.  Sure, it can't be rated, but what does a vintage rating really equate to?  Respect? Don't just disregard this.  I'm totally serious.  I'm tired of the R & D having more power then us, the Players.  This game wouldn't exist with out us.  If they restrict Academy Rector, and then go on to restrict the Wishes, and finally finish it out with Workshop(god help us all), think back to this post from a nobody.  Take the power from R & D and put it back where it belongs, in the hands of the players.

-Doug Weiss-

EDIT: Excessive profanity. Please try to control yourself in the future.

Me having to edit a post for profanity is highly ironic. \n\n

[Dozer]

Quote (Rico Suave @ July 31 2003,12:34)The idea is that wizards doesn't want to ban cards from T1.  They say "it's like banning cards from Magic", which they don't like doing barring ante/flipping cards.  It's a rule they follow, just like they don't errata things anymore.

This and HengeWolf's excellent last post on Magic cards as an investment take up a topic that has been discussed on our German forum (www.zkforum.de, most of you know it) pretty extensively some months ago. The question at the time was: What is Type 1? (I know this is steering away from the Rector-debate, but the format does NOT NEED restrictions at this point. Let's talk about that again when Stax/MUD have evolved to the point of total domination.)
So, what is T1?

Is it a format with occasional tourneys, where all cards can be played?
Or is it a tournament format with a very large card pool?

The difference between the two is that every tournament format is controlled by the DCI by means of bannings. Not restrictions, BANNINGS. They do that because the other formats (i.e. T2 and Extended) have a much smaller card pool, where problems can be eliminated by simple measures: A card is too good, so it gets taken out, and there is no replacement in the card pool (Masques Block is a very good example). The bigger the card pool, the harder it gets to solve problems of the format with one or two single bannings -- just remember the outcry over the last Extended bannings (before the rotation).
The point is: In tournament formats, cards get banned because they are too strong as seen by R&D.

In T1, cards get restricted because they are viewed as too strong by R&D. But in T1, cards also get restricted because they interact too close with others, only because no card, however strong it may be, gets restricted for power reasons. This directly contradicts with the DCI's practice in other formats: not wanting to take a card out of the game even though it is too powerful, they leave T1 in a state on the fence between a tournament and a casual format.
But do they think that everyone who plays with old cards plays T1? Does WotC really think that the mass of casual players even know of the Banned/Restricted-list? Let's face it: the people who play casual are not following the list anyway. The list is only important for and recognized by those players who view T1 as a tournament format, and we are precious few.

Wizards-people have said it often enough: "We don't want to take cards out of the game." They need to realize that banning a card on the B/R-list does not take a card out of the game: It takes it out of the tournament format that is called T1.

I believe WotC needs to make a decision. Do they want to have another tournament format, monitored and handled by the DCI (with the help of the players, if need be), or do they want to have a semi-casual format where everyone can show up to tournaments with his old Extended-deck and Mana Drains? This implies a seperation of casual players (not newbies!) who tell me "yeah, I also play T1" and then come with a Goblin theme deck featuring Goblin Caves from people like the Paragons.

At the moment, I feel that WotC changes direction towards T1 as a tournament format, what with prize support at GenCon and T1-cards in Mirrodin and stuff. But I don't think they have yet understood that T1 reaches not the Casual player, but a small, but active and sharp tournament crowd (which is largely kept in the game by T1). The event-support is not great, but the players want to keep in touch with R&D or the DCI. They don'T want to be left alone, the want the external guidelines that the B/R-list provides, and they want their format as a third besides Extended and T2.

And from that point of view, T1 as a tournament format (and a real one for that), viewing your cards as "investment" with guaranteed return shows that you are not willing to accept the mechanics of a tournament format. I have shelled out a grand deal of money in the past 6 weeks to be able to compete in the Worlds T1-Side Event, now finally owning P8 (no Walk). I did that because I am crazy , but also because I feel a desire to play tournament Magic at its most powerful level, which only T1 can provide. And still, even though I fell the holes in my purse, I'd be all for reprints. (PLEASE don't make this an issue here, it's just used to illustrate my main point.) It's not the money I care for, it's the feeling of finally being able to play competitively.

So my claim is (to WotC and the players): Treat T1 like a real tournament format. If a banning for power reasons should prove necessary, don't hesitate! But also, don't weaken the environment to the point where you have killed the high-edge power level from play, because that is what tournament T1 is about.

Dozer

P.S.: The environment is healthy as is. I fear an improved Workshop-based control-deck, but for now: Leave it.

P.P.S.: Anyone who thinks R&D does not play Magic is looking in the wrong direction. Sets become better and better, 8th is a better Core Set than 6th + 7th, and they are really putting energy in the game.

P.P.P.S.: I'll try to talk to Buehler at Worlds, and I'd advise anyone else to do the same. We need to know what R&D really thinks about T1, and how they are going to tackle it in the future.

[Smmenen]

Poll Closed.  Thanks for Participating.

Steve