PlayStation2

[Mykeatog]

The History

When Scourge was released I knew that Pyrostatic Pillar was a broken sligh card. I immediatly began thinking about a sligh deck that could abuse it, but I couldn't come up with much other than Suicide Sligh. Simply, a red deck that used all the cards you are familiar with trying to burn out the opponent. I thought it wasn't going to work out so I let it go.

At Gencon, I was doing poorly with Suicide and didn't want to play it during the $250 tournament. I tried to convince Steve (GrandInquisitor) to let me use his deck "The Vagina" (My nick name for any deck called either The Shinning, or Your Mother." He wouldn't let me. Then, Brian (Hulk3Rulez) told me to play Pyrostatic Sligh. After he did that for a while, I decided to play it. To a top 8 finish (out of 67). At some point during the tournament Brian referred to my deck as ps1.

I felt that it wasn't enough. The deck had more potential. Combo is huge now, and word on the street is duress is one of the cards that is the glue of the format. Ps1 needed a better return on it's investments, and some help from my older pet Brought Suicide.

Talking about it with Brian and Steve a little, and working on it in my spare time all summer, I came to the conclusion that I had a brand new assault machine. The reason I am posting this now is because others are starting to see it. Pillar has been identified as viable, and I am about to show you why...

And for the record: Eastman had nothing to do with this.

The Deck

---Playstation 2.
by Mykeatog (Broughton)

4 Duress
4 Pillar
4 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Lightning Bolt

4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Goblin Vandal
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Withered Wretch

1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Yawg WIN
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Vise

4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mires
5 Swamp
5 Mountain

//Cyborg
4 Blood Moons
3 Null Rod
3 Therepy
4 Scald

Things I already know...

I know that I am using Fetchlands and Ankh.
I know that I am using Pillar and 43 spells that cost 3 or less.

Things I am wondering...

Lighting Bolt might be just not enough of a must counter to play, other cards in consideration are Sinkhole, Therepy, Welder, Hymn to Tourach, and Shaman. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I am using Vandals, I am not sure if they should be Shaman.

20 Mana sources is low, should I use more, and less fetch's?

Demonic Consultation needs to be fit in the deck, I just don't know where.

Cyborg needs work.

How you can get involved.

Post. Let me know what you are thinking. I am confident that this is a deck with a huge chance to disrupt the scene a little, and it brings a new hope for budget aggro. I am looking for any feedback, or thoughts.\n\n

[Phyrexius]

This deck looks solid, but I have a question.
Why haven't you included Strip Mine and Wastelands?

[Mykeatog]

Wow, that is a very good question, I have a low mana count right now, and I think wastelands are an excellent idea in the lightning bolt slot.

Strip Mine will definatly be added.\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote And for the record: Eastman had nothing to do with this.

Actually Mike, I traded you one of those Badlands...thanks for the foil forces.

Having tested earlier this summer with my somewhat inexperienced brother's Pyro-Sligh deck, I can already know how absolutely devastating this can be against combo and control, in particular. I am a little worried about some of the better aggro matchups but with Black and Red at your fingertips those problems can likely be solved with little difficulty.

Scald is not an optimal use of 4 SB slots. For a deck running B/R, Red Elemental Blast is also noticeably missing. I might try cutting all three of the existing Cabal Therapy ('s) for REBS to back up your Blood Moon's. Chains of Mephistopheles would be an excellent replacement for Scald as it can utterly devastate both the Combo and the Control player. In a format rife with Brainstorm, AK, and Intuition, Chains seems an obvious play.

I'm not sure if you have the tools onboard to deal with Workshops effectively right now, Vandal is effective but he may not be enough. Again, because you carry a heavy red component, you shouldn't have much trouble shoring up the Workshop matchup.

[Mykeatog]

---Playstation 2.
by Mykeatog (Broughton)

//Must Counter//
4 Duress
4 Pillar
4 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Goblin Vandal
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Withered Wretch
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Yawg WIN
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Vise

//Other//
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mires
5 Swamp
5 Mountain

//Cyborg (Metagame dependant)//
4 Meltdown/Rack and Ruin
3 Null Rod
3 Therepy
4 Terminate
1 Grim Lavamancer\n\n

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I hate to play devil's advocate, but how is this deck better than stacker? (other than the money factor?) Stacker has about the same amount of disruption spells, but it is more explosive, and has better creatures. It seems like this deck is just a variant of stacker, only sans artifacts. Anyways, don't take this as a flame, I'm just curious...

[brianb]

Has this deck seen any play in the real world?  This level of hate might look good if your friends all play souped-up combo, but you also need to be able to deal with first round matchups against random, suboptimally built aggro decks.  As far as I can see, even bad white weenie, stompy, or fish just murder you.  In the later rounds, you'll still have to deal with well-built sligh and suicide.  In those matchups, duress is soso; ankh, price, and pillar are just bad; you won't be able to clear a path for the negator; and vise won't do much.  You don't have enough cards in your sb to replace all the dead cards.  This might have potential, but to be realistic here, you need a more balanced, less single-mindedly hateful approach.

[Terevaune]

Looking at your deck, some questions come to mind
1 - yawg win - do you have enough mana tio use this realistically.  It is a late game card, yes, but how often do you have 4+ mana, and still enoguh life that playing those spells won't kill you.  Right now it looks like will will usually net a replayed fetch or waste, and maybe another spell (possibly 2 if you've been really going late game), at a cost of probably 6 life minimum.  If this wins you the game, great but I just can't see that happening that often.  Suicide and combo can use will because of ritual and artifact mana, and keeper uses it becasue they have the mana.  The way i see it, this will only be good if you've already got your lotus and sacced it.  Will could probably be another slot, esp if you don't have lotus.

As for thwe rest of the deck, it looks pretty solid but I can't help but feeling Slax - the $95 solution might be better.  And it looks like you just die to anything remotely aggro, or most aggro hate like parfait.

[Mykeatog]

It is obvious that the deck doesn't fare well against it's aggro brothers, but that doesn't mean it can't. Also just because both PS2 and Slax run Ankh, and Pillar doesn't mean that they are the same thing. PS2 is built to be played in a high control and combo environment, but with some simple side board aid it will be able to. Red and Black are the colors that kill shit, and all creatures... are shit.

Lavamancer is a beast against aggro. He kills most any creature that is going to wind up an issue. The terminate's were put in for tog (not the best solution), but can double as the way to blow things up. Depending on how much of the sideboard hate needs to be dedicated to artifact destruction, I shoudl be able to open up a few more slots for some classic cards that can fix the aggro match up. I have my own ideas, but does anyone else have any suggestions?

I wouldn't use Yawg WIN... but it has the word win in its name.

Edit-- Brianb in the metagame you described (one without islands) I would opt to not use PS2.\n\n

[Radagast]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 02 2003,23:36) How you can get involved.

Post. Let me know what you are thinking.

The deck looks(/is) as horrible as its namesake. Then again, for budget aggro, you could certainly do worse. It seems like nothing more than piles of hate and bad creatures (clarification: creatures not named Psychatog qualify as being bad), but there doesn't seem to be much else available right now.

To be a bit more constructive, how good have Price, Vandal, Lavamancer, and Terminate been? I haven't seen any deck use Price for ages, and it could be for a reason (just a hunch, really, I don't actually play any games any more). Vandal seems to only be useful against Stax (TnT can just block it), Lavamancer is by common consensus inferior to other options available (Pup, Scroll, whatever), and I don't see what you would want Terminates against -- the artifact destruction works just as well against Mask and TnT (does the deck still exist at all?), and you're better off with something more efficient against everything else.

EDIT - In the case of Tog, that would be Red Elemental Blast.\n\n

[Mykeatog]

1.) A resolved pillar is game over for Tog.
2.) I believe Lavamancer to be superior to Pup/Scroll. He is cheaper than scroll, and can be more versitle than pup.
3.) Terminate is to help the aggro match much more than the tog match. Perhaps not the best option admitedly, but I am looking for others.
4.) Price of Progress sure is in every sligh deck... yep.
5.) I find Vandal to be much more versitile than Shaman, he can get the job done on bigger things, and that makes me happy. I am going to be testing both though, because it is a close debate.
6.) As far as the namesake crack goes... Playstations are mad-supah-fly.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote A resolved pillar is game over for Tog

hmm, i seem to remember you resolving a pillar against Hulk in the T8 at GENCON...and then losing.

I agree with the terminates over REB's/Rack and Ruin/FireIce.  With sideboard cards its a delicate balance between a card being flexible or a card doing what its supposed to well.  In terminate's case, its great at killing all things untargetable, of which there is an abundance in the format.

As far as the deck as a whole, it still looks a little over-extended and hate driven.  All of the cards are annoying, but I'm not sure if any of them, independently, is game breaking.  I played a match with Hulk recently where I operated under a Planar Void and Underworld dreams for a few turns while Tog kept the hordes at bay.

This deck looks like it would lose a lot of close matchups, making it annoying, but not threatening.

Of course I haven't played against it yet...(are you back at UMass yet?)\n\n

[kirdape3]

To paraphrase JP on hate decks versus him playing Hulk:

"You know, I'm going to win round 1 then not have to face them the rest of the day."

Literally, this deck will not beat anything that uses the attack phase, or for that matter Welder MUD on the draw, or probably Academy on the draw.  Hulk you may slip something annoying through on them, but they probably can just flat-out race since your creature set is completely negated by them dropping a Psychatog.

I just don't see it being any better even as a budget deck than the traditional archetypes.  ESPECIALLY since you can't stop the degeneracy outside of random Duress and Pillar which won't do enough since your clock is so terribly slow.

[Radagast]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Sep. 03 2003,12:34)In terminate's case, its great at killing untargetable creatures

Huh?

\n\n

[Windfall]

In a deck with many Mountains, has anyone ever considered Pulverize a good answer to Stax, MUD, and Welder MUD?  This card can wipe the board clean for zero mana (or one/two under a Sphere).  Personally, I think it's better than Rack and Ruin.  It doesn't hurt under a Pillar either.

Since there was some talk about the artifact deck matchup, I thought I'd chime in with a possible answer.

     ~Mark

[wuaffiliate]

just some small comments:

you take the strenght of both sui and sligh, throw them together. so you put 2 decks that do pretty well vs control together, and remove sligh's slight good match vs aggro. so basically you have a deck that will lose to nearly all aggro. yet has only an even at best match vs control and combo.

pillar is nice, but its easily delt with for hulk and helps aggro, it helps more matches in the SB . ive won so many games vs pyro sligh with sui and landstill because pillar is just terrible vs aggro(aggro-control). i would sideboard it and run therapy or chain lightning.

also you have 14 B mana inc. lotus/jet/fetches, do you not have a hell of a time droping a wretch when its most important?

my question is how do you plan on making t8 if you can lose to the scrub whos playing bad stompy . even the most combo/control oriented metagames will have the budget players.\n\n

[Matt The Great]

If you're replacing Bolts with Wastelands, why not change Ankh (which is not so good with fetches) to Null Rod or Sphere of Resistance?

I personally would favor Null Rod because it's the best mox-killer around. That switch should also settle the Shaman vs. Vandal debate (you have four maindeck Moxkillers, is eight really necessary?)

I really don't like how Shaman competes with Wretch for mana.

Lastly, losing Ankh would allow you to play more fetches, instead of nasty basic lands.\n\n

[Mykeatog]

The whole reason I am using ankh is it is a must counter in the early game. The idea is essentially to rock out hard core on the first couple turns- get 2x business permanent, some disruption, and a guy- to out fox the counter base.

Steve- Resolving a late game Pillar isn't going to be as effective against tog, getting opponents to use counters early in the match is key. The strategy is to draw out pretty much anything that they have, and then when they can't fight back anymore resolve some business. (I am pretty sure that I resolved the pillar in a situation where the tog was already at my throat, and at the time the deck was just sligh + pillars. When I played the pillar turn two of game two- he countered that shit.) Steve you say it looks over-extended, but how do you propose I bring it back into a less extended area?

Matt- Not a bad proposition. Using null rod would help the mana base, as I could run more fetch's, and it woudl end all the debate between the artifact ninja's.

Kird- I fail to see how the clock is too slow. I do agree that the aggro match needs work, but I have already come up with a few different approaches to it. The main problem I am seeing with your arguement is that I don't see how [two damage/spell cast] is a slow clock. It is reactive, but also is backed up by a pretty aggressive arsenal. Just a few of those pillar hits, coupled with a swing from one of the guys, and a right timed PoP and the game is over.\n\n

[kirdape3]

I'm playing Goblins.  Turn 1 on the draw, I drop Lackey.  If you don't have the ability to destroy the Lackey (and you almost certainly will not), you have to have a blocker and hope that I can't Bolt the guy out of the way (or Fanatic him) to drop something bigger.  If I'm playing, then any creature I have is scary for you, as you have no removal.  I'll pay two to destroy your Lavamancer through a Bolt, or even just throw it at the head.

I'm playing Suicide.  Turn 1 on the play, I go 'Ritual Negator' and extend the hand.  Your only out is to drop a guy and hope to clear my board of permanents as you're taking 4 and 5 point hits from that monster.  Any other creature, including Wretch and Hypnotic Specter, is similarly bad.

I'm playing any sort of Workshop deck.  Turn 1, you have to have a start on the order of 'Lotus, Swamp, Duress/Duress/Wretch' or you're not winning because they'll have dropped SOMETHING that will interfere with your ability to cast your spells.  I don't have to have Welder active when I drop Karn and send two Smokestacks and a Grafted Skullcap smashing into you.

I'm playing Long.dec.  You're dead before you get to cast Pillar if you're drawing; their goldfish turn is turn 2 and if they think you're liable to be annoying they can Duress your Duress away from you.

I'm playing Dragon.  Fine, you Duressed away my Dance of the Dead.  Oh look, I'll Bazaar/Compulsion into a new one because your clock is slow even with graveyard removal in the form of Wretch.  I can just set up the Necromancy engine.

I'm playing Mask.  Survival engine gets going; you're gone.  They don't even have to smash you with a Dreadnought; they've probably just gone for Baloth recursion off Genesis.

The short version is, unlike Goblins with a black splash, you should only have two good matchups that I can think of:  Hulk and Keeper.  And it shouldn't be that much better than 60/40 for you; they're broken while you're trying to hate the brokenness.  Winning on turn 5 in this format is TWO WHOLE TURNS too slow for any deck that can't use Mana Drain, and even then you're probably not going to like it if the game goes long.

[Mykeatog]

Kirdape, I feel like most of those are a bit too biased.

Goblins. Not a deck I am worried about seeing in my meta, and I was I would use strong sideboard for aggro.

Suicide. Aside form the negator drop (which isn't the best play vs. a deck that has blockers) the other critters of sui all fall over to a lavamancer. I am not saying the match is great pre-board, but I am saying that it isn't an auto loss, Suicide is a winable match.

Workshops. This is a match that I feel even with sideboard focus will be hard to take out, something about swamps vs. workshops, I won't lie... I fear.

Long.deck. Doesn't win every game on turn 2. I don't even need an excellent hand here, just a non-bad hand will make for an interesting game. I think you are giving a little too much away in this match.

Dragon. Duress, Wasteland, Wretch, and (not that I recomend it, just making a point) terminate. All of which will cause for the game to not just be over. Once again, I find this to be a much better match than you.

Mask. Very uncommon in my meta, so I will say I haven't done much thought on the matter. You got me here.

Keeper/Phid/Vagina. We agree I have great matches here.

Kirdape, I don't want to clutter up the thread with our obviously opposite views of the situation, but I do want to discuss matters with you more, rather, I jsut don't want to fight about the same points in the thread over and over. A PM would be greatly appriciated.

[FyreStar]

If dropping Pillar/Ankh/Negator as early as possible is one of this deck's goals, shouldn't you include the off-color moxen in the mana base?

[wuaffiliate]

so basically this is a hate deck for your metagame, and fuck the rest of the viable decks that you never see? why are you posting this if its solely for your metagame and has no real effect on an open metagame?

[SpikeyMikey]

Quote (Mykeatog @ Sep. 03 2003,02:17)---Playstation 2.
by Mykeatog (Broughton)

//Must Counter//
4 Duress
4 Pillar
4 Price of Progress
4 Ankh of Mishra
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Goblin Vandal
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Withered Wretch
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Yawg WIN
1 Demonic Consultation
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Black Vise

//Other//
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
4 Badlands
3 Bloodstained Mires
5 Swamp
5 Mountain

//Cyborg (Metagame dependant)//
4 Meltdown/Rack and Ruin
3 Null Rod
3 Therepy
4 Terminate
1 Grim Lavamancer

Wow.  That's definitely a suicidal deck.  In addition to the Ankh/Fetch and pillar/43 cc creature you run is negator, generally a bad thing for aggro.  The only aggro deck that gets away with that is Suicide, and that's because in addition to 4 wastes+strip and 4 duress, it also runs 4 sinks, 4 hymns, and 4 hippies.

Your creatures are all useful, but no 2 creatures useful in the same matchup.  Vandal v. Hulk is a joke, strictly inferior to mox monkey, Lavamancer only shines against aggro, while playable against control, there are better options.  Cursed Scroll comes immediately to mind, since it can't be balanced away, isn't vulnerable to the Abyss, and isn't dependant on removing shit from the grave in a deck running Yawgmoth's Will, which by the way, costs far too much to be running in this deck, or any deck not running either 4 rituals or at least solomoxen.

Speaking of not having rituals, Negator is good on turn 1.  On turn 3, not nearly as scary.  By this point, your opponent has drain mana open, and unless you're opening up with one of the 4 duresses(meaning minimum of turn 4), the swing in tempo from having a Negator drained is horrendous.  Now, if your "must counter" spells were all that scary, that wouldn't be a problem you could force them to blow their counters earlier, but like I said, only half of your shit is useful in any given matchup.  Even assuming they don't have the drain or a force, because of the switch from morphling to tog, there's a lot of cheap targeted removal running around right now, making Negator, as your only large threat, a lightning rod for removal.

Don't get me wrong, I think budget aggro can be done, but this is definitely not it.  I'm all about playing janky decks, but they have to be janky decks that could possibly win, and this, frankly, looks like it'd barely hold it's own against precons.\n\n

[Eastman]

Whoa... that's a lot of criticism.


Well I wouldn't give up quite as quickly as many of my comrades. The deck has definitely got potential.

I would first look at fixing up the creature base. Phyrexian Negator is definitely useless and Grim Lavamancer is too poor in multiples to warrant 4-of status. Find someone big who owns other creatures for the negator slot and you will likely improve a lot of matchups.

 I would also try replacing a few of the lavamancers with Gorilla Shamans to give yourself some really useful tools to deal with all the Workshops we hate so dearly.

[Os-Vegeta]

My only question is how is this better than RB Lackey?  Really, you're taking a Sligh-ish win approach with Sui's disruption for backup.

[Mykeatog]

Eastman: Hate = Fear.

Fyre: I have considered it, but at the moment I am still fairly convinced that I don't have the spots to be supporting random colorless mana.

Vegeta: It isn't as though 'lackey' is a staple in the format, I believe that the threads betweed the two decks were started around the same time. I am obviously looking at the RB Lackey as something to consider, but after playing games with this deck it is also obvious that the approach is different.

Others: Are we playing a who can thrash this deck FOR NO REASON the best-est game? Seriously, as in any thread I am looking for deck aid. I never claimed this was the end all of the format, I am saying it has potential. IF you disagree fine, be constructive- if you are the hero's of the type 1 world then you should be able to help fix ANY deck, even my pre-con losing pile of MUST counters.

In other news...
The Ankh's are proving a little too much for me, I don't mind dealing myself damage, but sometimes I just need to keep playing land. As of this moment the cards I am looking to replace are ankh, and Negator. I hate to say it, but Will is even in cutting consideration, any thoughts (that could be considered constructive)? I am using bolts over the Ankh's right now, but I feel that they are too weak on there own, Therapy is an option.

(PS2 sux0rz!! w00t.)\n\n

[jpmeyer]

To make this a viable hate deck it needs three things:

1) Chains of Mephistopheles, the best hate card in the environment
2) Cabal Therapy, to buy you more time because right now your clock is ass slow
3) Better clocks (like say, Jackal Pup) so that your clock isn't ass slow.

[Os-Vegeta]

Quote Vegeta: It isn't as though 'lackey' is a staple in the format, I believe that the threads betweed the two decks were started around the same time. I am obviously looking at the RB Lackey as something to consider, but after playing games with this deck it is also obvious that the approach is different.

Maybe I worded my question incorrectly.  The approach as far as the kill conditions are different, but the aim is practically the same: Deal lots of damage while have hand disruption for backup.  This is the same strategy that RB Lackey uses.  I know Lackey isn't a/the staple at the moment, but what I am asking is why you feel this approach, regarding how you deal damage, is superior.

[Grand Inquisitor]

any updates after friday's test-run?

after playing against it i feel that it has two weaknesses:

1) lack of synergy between its parts.  the deck tries to do too much and its cards while somewhat powerful, are still targetted at top tier decks in the format, without any emphasis on working together as a strategy of its own.

2) the only resource the deck attacks is life.  maybe it was just the games we played, but sligh at least made an attempt to ruin your mana base, and its clock was faster.  even against complete hosers, a good player will use their life as a cushion until they gain control and implement their strategy.  this deck needs more disruption.

the replacement for negators (i forget their name) seemed good, how did they perform in other matchups?