[Article] Burning Through Type One: Workshop Match

[Smmenen]

Click Me

Then click on my article - it's the second one down.  

Whadda ya think?


Steve

[Vegeta2711]

So my deck gets utterly raped by turn 1 hands and otherwise the guy doesn't mull shit hands when he knows he's vs. Long. Nice.

Other than my normal bias, it was an intresting read and telling that none of the games lasted long at all. I really like these types of articles, so keep up the good work.

[Magimaster]

Wouldn't it have been easier to flip coins or roll dice instead of actually playing out the games?





I kid, that was an interesting article. One question though, is this the type of format you really want? Well, maybe I'm asking the wrong person, but as pointed out those games were lightning fast.

I miss the olden days.


But good article.

[Smmenen]

I have made clear - Long is too good.  If Chalice hadn't come in, it would have to be neutered.

But I think one of the biggest flaws is that people are trying to restrict workshop and other cards simply becuase they are angry with long.

@ Vegeta:
I think that one of the things that is so screwed up - something that I see happen is that people are SO MUCH worse with long than I thought the average person would be.   What really illustrated this was a talk I had with Matt Smith asking him what he would do with hands that I used in miy articles.  He kept trying to tutor up draw 7s, something long almost never does!  People can't play this like an old academy deck.

Anyway, the important point I was trying to make against stacker is that pryo pillar makes the long player perfectly instead of actually being a win condition.

Steve\n\n

[Vegeta2711]

Quote I think that one of the things that is so screwed up - something that I see happen is that people are SO MUCH worse with long than I thought the average person would be.

That's true. Even when I beat you the few times we played, you worried me a hell of a lot more than when I play the average combo player. (I think it's mainly because they're too busy wetting themselves about a turn 1/2 kill.)

Quote Anyway, the important point I was trying to make against stacker is that pryo pillar makes the long player perfectly instead of actually being a win condition.

Also true, but when coupled with most Long players ineptness it is a win condition.  

[rozetta]

That was another great article. I especially liked the game where the opponent got out a turn 1 pillar - I'd have thought it'd be almost impossible to win under those circumstances, since there are so few cc>3 spells in the deck.

Nice work, and a nice conclusion to the series.

[brianb]

I haven't seen anyone address the mirror yet.  Is it just a matter of winning the die roll?  Aside from the occasional duress, do you acknowledge your opponnent at all or just do your own thing.  Is there anything you might sb differently (hurkyl's recall?) if you expected to see the mirror?

[bebe]

Quote
I have made clear - Long is too good.  If Chalice hadn't come in, it would have to be neutered.

Steve I've voiced this before. Chalice does not solve the inherent problems of Long. It reduces the meta to even more of an 'I win the flip' environment. If I pop my Sphere or Chalice first, I win with Dragon or Mud. If Long goes first I lose 65% of my games turn one ( with a four Spoils build ).
It still has to be neutered. I cannot rely on my opponent's poor playing skills as a barometer of the brokeness of the environment.

On ther other hand, I entirely agree that Workshop should be left alone for now unless we want to see Hulk and Combo dominate completely.\n\n

[Gothmog]

I've played my Stacker build un-boarded 14 times against Long in testing and the person that went first won every game.

Frankly, I'm not sure what needs to be done, but something needs to happen soon with the restricted List.  Type I is silly right now.

[waSP]

Gothmog has it right.  I took Long to a tournament last week.  I hadn't practiced enough with the deck so I lost a match to URPhid I shouldn't have.  My match against WelderMud was unwinnable, which is kind of depressing.  There should never be a true auto-loss, and WelderMud is as close to one as there is.  That's true for more decks than just Long (whch btw is too degenerate and no fun).  I think Tog needs to be dealt with as well as the Lock decks and Long.  Slow blue based control should be on top, for no other reason than it extends games and gives time for real player interaction.

[Smmenen]

Even if drawing you will certainly beat them more than they beat you.

You just have to be really good with long and have the right sb.

Steve\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Quote (Vegeta2711 @ Oct. 17 2003,01:07)

Quote Anyway, the important point I was trying to make against stacker is that pryo pillar makes the long player perfectly instead of actually being a win condition.

Also true, but when coupled with most Long players ineptness it is a win condition.  

Pillar gets a lot better when Long adds 4 spoils. Of course, with spoils, you have far more turn 1 kills, so pillar may not be that great after all.

[Os-Vegeta]

Steve,

The article was very good, and I'm glad I was one of the first to get to read it. (By the way, thanks for mentioning me in the credits for helping edit the article.)

Long.dec is quite powerful, and when I spoke with Matt TG last night he and I were talking about Mirrodin's effect on the environment.  Though Chalice ended up being an attempt by Wizards to "slow down" the environment by trying to neuter combo, it isn't happening as planned, as Matt pointed out to me that with Spoils of the Vault added Long.dec will now be able to kill turn 1 more consistently.  This means that at least half the time a mull-Chalice won't even hit the board.  I see that as something very disturbing for Type 1, and I'm really wondering how WotC will react to this even greater power shift towards combo decks.

[Vegeta2711]

Quote Pillar gets a lot better when Long adds 4 spoils. Of course, with spoils, you have far more turn 1 kills, so pillar may not be that great after all.

I haven't played much vs. Neo-Long, but it seems like that would be true. Since they lose about a third of their life to Spoils at least usually, even playing perfectly wouldn't help.