Deck Tech: GAT, SuperGro/Gro

[Shivan Knight]

@ Ultima

You see the negative sides of Skeletal Scrying ; I see the positive ones.

You don't want to remove the 4 AKs ? No problemo : there are 20 other cards that just ask to be removed (4-5 fetchlands, 4 Brainstorms, 10 counters/Duress). But removing 1 AK or a Tral can be a nice trick if you have a Cunning Wish in your hand...

You're afraid of weakening your Tog ? Well, that's true if your Scrying gets countered. Actually, if you resolve it, Tog is stronger. For example, Scrying for 2 = -1 (-2 cards in the yard) + 3 (+2 cards in your hand) = +2

@ GI

Good job.

[Ric_Flair]

Looking at the two Waterbury decks I have a couple of questions to both players and/or the general reading audience:

1) Regrowth or No?  Ben's deck ran both Regrowth and Will, Steve's ran Will alone.  What are the pros and cons of each configuration?

2) Mana Base?  Ben's deck had a very conventional low land mana base, while Steve's deck seems to be approaching a Hulk stule mana base.  What are the benefits of the high land count?  If the deck is more aggro than control I think that the low count is better and vice versa for control over aggro.  Is this a correct perception.

3) Strips, Strips and Wastes or Neither?  How important is Strip to the deck?  Does it help in the match-up with Dragon?  Does it help in any other match ups?  I have found the deck, my SuperGro version IRL, and the GAT/r version on App to be VERY color hungry.  I ran a compliment of 1 Strip and 2 Wastes and I was frustrated a lot.  I dropped it down to 1 Strip and I have had consistency issues in using it.  Is there a weird configuration that works best like 1 of each?  

Thanks.

[David Hernandez]

@Ric_Flair:

take a look at the discussion below for some good comments regarding Regrowth.  The guys from C&J's in N. Calif. have some great points about it.

http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....3;st=20

as for strips and wastes, i find that the mana base is very tight.  At most, i think there is room for a Strip Mine.  I run 22 mana sources (including LoA and a strip).  I don't run Red.

I like G.I.'s build, though i am going to try running 4 Impulse in place of Brainstorm (because of the Isochron Scepters, i think Impulse is better).  Since i dont run the red, i would be adding a Regrowth and a couple of Duress (i like to run 3).  Future Sight is a HOUSE in this deck.

dave

[Rebel428]

I've been testing Scepter myself recently.  I've been getting mixed results, but GI seems to like them quite a bit.  Running three Cunning Wish makes them a lot better, so I suppose they're worth it for now.

Ebony Charm probably deserves at least one SB slot.  It's almost as good as Coffin Purge for hating certain decks, and has the additional bonus of being able to make your creatures unblockable when you don't necessarily need the graveyard hate anymore.  This makes it an excellent card to imprint onto a Scepter, especially against other Tog decks.


Other Random notes:

I no longer run Regrowth, mostly because I needed to make space for other cards.  I found that Ancestral is just about the only worthy target for it, so it was dead rather often.

Hurkyl's Recall has proven itself effective against prison decks.  Getting one onto a scepter is often game.  

Suicide isn't overly difficult if you can play an early Dryad and pump it quickly.

Fish isn't too big of a problem game one, but Maze of Ith causes some serious problems.  SB Capsize and/or Stifle to Wish for might remedy this.

I don't think I will ever find room for Wastelands.  They would be very nice to have, as they are great against threats such as Bazaars, Workshops, and Mazes.  However, I neither want to make the mana base any weaker nor increase the amount of mana sources.

I've often found myself wishing that Yawgmoth's Will was something else, so I'm considering...... nevermind, I'm probably just thinking those insane thoughts again.  Not owning a Lotus probably has something to do with it.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote I've been testing Scepter myself recently.  I've been getting mixed results, but GI seems to like them quite a bit.  Running three Cunning Wish makes them a lot better, so I suppose they're worth it for now.

I still haven't really settled between the 3-color and 4-color versions.  I do think the 4-color is more versatile, but the 3-color may be more consistent and have a better chance at going combo with fastbond.

Quote Ebony Charm probably deserves at least one SB slot

I find coffin purge to be almost strictly better.  If you want to remove things from the grave, its more resilient to discard.  If you want to make a guy unblockable, it could be either fire/ice or berserk.  It probably does have better synergy with scepter, but I don't think thats a good enough argument.

Quote I've often found myself wishing that Yawgmoth's Will was something else, so I'm considering...... nevermind, I'm probably just thinking those insane thoughts again

You should seek help.

[Ultima]

I'm not exactly sure either about which version is better between the 3 or 4 color versions.

Most of the time, the 3 color version is more explosive and still has the ability to just "go off" while the 4 color is more controlling.  Essentially, I tried adding red to the 3 color version without adding any MD red and found it to be really unnecessary.

As of right now, i'd put my money on the 4 color version because its more controlling which seems to be a safer bet in this metagame, though that's by cutting the combo aspects for more counter and stability such as subtracting fastbond for scepters, etc.

[Ric_Flair]

REMOVED DICKHEAD COMMENTS\n\n

[David Hernandez]

@Ric: you don't want this moved to the EVF.  You won't be able to post to it.

Anyway, I've been analyzing the decks that were posted on the first page of this thread.  In one case, only 16 mana sources are listed.  If you look at the trend, the mana base goes up to about 23, but only when the last 3 lands are 2x Wasteland and 1x Strip Mine.  This tells me that the strip effects are being played as if they are "spells", while the real mana base is 20 or less.

Note that the decks that splashed White for Meddling Mage/Swords to Plowshares finished in the top 4 in tournaments that hosted 59 or more players.  That may be significant.

In my opinion, the resurgence of Blood Moon is going to affect this deck negatively, though the ability to counter may offset it.  Perhaps the 2 Misdirections (that seem to be the standard number among the top 8 decks you listed) should be swapped out for vanilla Counterspells.

Every deck that finished in the top 8 ran Gush in the main. This is significant.

3 Duress seem to be the right number, and appear to belong in the deck.  2 Cunning Wish seem to work fine, with a third one as insurance.  I think that 2 would be enough, based on the stats you posted.

Accumulated Knowledge is run in every listed deck that placed in a tourney with significant numbers of players.

2 Psychatogs appear to be enough.

I am completely amazed at the extreme shortage of mana sources in some of these decks!

After looking over the decks for the past few days, I like the one by Ben Taraskevich best.  It seems very balanced and flexible, with many threats and good defense.  It has a solid mana base (still a low 20!, not counting the strip mine), runs only one strip effect, but seems to gets the job done.

Regrowth almost appears to be a 'win more' card, but was listed in Ben's build, which had the highest finish of the posted decks. I think that may be worthy of note.  I play the Regrowth, and find it to be strong enough to warrant a slot, although G.I.'s comments make me think twice about it simply because he's G.I.  I'm still unsure about Regrowth, but I'm usually more happy to see it than not.

Berserk, when present, is always in the SB as a Wish target. Pernicious Deed appears in several sideboards, but in only 2 main decks.  Deeds are great against a tremendous number of decks, including Workshop-Prison and Aggro.  I think running one in the main and one in the SB is a good way to go.

@G.I.

Quote I'll probably try to drop one of the tropicals/volcanics/5th fetch.  Strip Mine and LoA aren't going anywhere, and I don't want to go to 23 sources.  I could also drop one of the moxen, but I really like the acceleration.  Suggestions?

GAT appears to need no less than 5 Fetch Lands (several builds run 6), and in one case there is a build with 7(!).  I think 5 is the right number.  If you drop a Mox, you will be dropping a supporting color (since you run Red).  Maybe you could drop the Sol Ring...? Outside of Stephen Houdlette with GAT (7th Place), yours is the only build in the thread that really runs it.  I recognize the acceleration it offers, but I think the stats show it to be unnecessary.

--Dave\n\n

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote If you drop a Mox, you will be dropping a supporting color (since you run Red).  Maybe you could drop the Sol Ring...? Outside of Stephen Houdlette with GAT (7th Place), yours is the only build in the thread that really runs it.

For the record, I am Stephen Houdlette.  Regarding Sol Ring, I find its ability to cast better Yawgmoth's Will, faster Future Sight, Cunning Wish, Dryad+AK, hard-cast pitch counters, and any number of other card combinations is well worth it.  However, I will devote some time to a build with a tighter curve, and no sol ring since many people are adamant about this card.

Quote GAT appears to need no less than 5 Fetch Lands (several builds run 6), and in one case there is a build with 7(!).  I think 5 is the right number

I agree that the deck benefits from a large number of fetchlands.  However, since I've been running up against increased numbers of Fish, Landstill, Keeper (stifle>chalice), and others that run stifle, I've tried to make the deck less dependent on them.  I find that in a four color build, if I run three of each dual, four fetch, on-color moxen, and a City of Brass, the whole thing works pretty well.  Thats 18, plus my staples (island, strip, loa, sol ring, lotus), which makes 23.  In Waterbury, you'll notice, I didn't run the island.  Now I find it necessary.  I'm also stuck in a hard spot where I want to cut down on:
1) total mana sources
2) fetches
3) high color specificity (number of spells that require non-blue)

However, there are interdependent relationships that require a certain presence of one to make the other (and the entire mana base) work.

Quote Regrowth almost appears to be a 'win more' card, but was listed in Ben's build, which had the highest finish of the posted decks. I think that may be worthy of note.  I play the Regrowth, and find it to be strong enough to warrant a slot, although G.I.'s comments make me think twice about it simply because he's G.I.  I'm still unsure about Regrowth, but I'm usually more happy to see it than not.

These are the reasons I don't like Regrowth:
1) Its not good on its own (you've got to play a broken spell first)
2) Its not blue
3) Its sorcery speed
4) In many ways the deck is redundant enough already.

In spite of this, the card is restricted for a reason.  I can certainly understand someone running this card.  However, until discard or suicide become popular again I won't be one of these people.


In general, DH, I like your approach of deck analysis among top finishers.  However, I use this as a point of departure into more theoretical card discussion since we'll never have a large enough sample size to make an empirical approach significant.