Chalice of the Void, Main Deck?

[urza's child]

With Smmenen bringing long.dec back from the dead, does chalice of the void need to be main deck in keeper?

Currently, I run 2 Isochron Scepter, and no Chalice, much like Samite Healer's list, but with the release of the neo-long.dec list, I am starting to become a believer that Chalice of the Void needs to be main deck, and maybe move Isochron Scepters to the sideboard and bring them in against certain decks like sligh, wmud, fish, sui, and the control matchup.

My original reasoning for using Chalice of the Void in the sideboard only is that it is too dead against too many different decks, but with the revival of long.dec, I am thinking otherwise. With 4 overload in the deck, stealing that first game against long.dec can be crucial. I also feel that now stifles are necessary in the board (I used to run coffin purge > stifle), but then again I also feel that the restriction of LED is necessary, but who knows.

Please discuss\n\n

[hippie tourach]

This question is hard to answer because you approach it from a global standpoint rather than a local one. You would have to have a significant showing of Long where you play in order to maindeck Chalice for solely that reason. Global factors such as Smemmen's support of Long may or may not actually affect your metagame, so you can't decide merely on that basis.

The other thing that's confusing about your question is that you say Smemmen is "bringing long.dec back from the dead." In fact, Smemmen has abandoned Long since Mirrodin. He has said it is hosed by Chalice and that he has not tested it with Mirrodin. Therefore your speculations would be more consistent with the feelings shortly before Mirrodin was released, when everyone remembered Smmemen's Long articles and said that every deck would maindeck Chalice for fear of Long. Now people are more reliant on the fear of Chalice, maindeck or sideboard, to drive away Long players, so that they don't have to maindeck it.

If that's not the case in your metagame, and people aren't afraid of Chalice and run around with Long, then Chalice could be maindecked.

[urza's child]

Quote This question is hard to answer because you approach it from a global standpoint rather than a local one. You would have to have a significant showing of Long where you play in order to maindeck Chalice for solely that reason. Global factors such as Smemmen's support of Long may or may not actually affect your metagame, so you can't decide merely on that basis.

The other thing that's confusing about your question is that you say Smemmen is "bringing long.dec back from the dead." In fact, Smemmen has abandoned Long since Mirrodin. He has said it is hosed by Chalice and that he has not tested it with Mirrodin. Therefore your speculations would be more consistent with the feelings shortly before Mirrodin was released, when everyone remembered Smmemen's Long articles and said that every deck would maindeck Chalice for fear of Long. Now people are more reliant on the fear of Chalice, maindeck or sideboard, to drive away Long players, so that they don't have to maindeck it.

do you REALLY think he was telling the truth? I believe he hasn't tested spoils/chrome mox, but i know he tested against chalice decks. How else could he possibly have put together that list? just random cards thrown in sleeves together magically make first at KC? mean deck is the most secretive team out there, theyre probably working on decks that will come out in 2-3 months, but because they don't play as often as a lot of people (most of them, not westredale or the cali section), their decklists arent released very often, only when smmenen writes an article or someone from meandeck runs a deck that theyve made in a tournament

[hulk3rules]

Quote (urza's child @ Nov. 03 2003,12:47)
do you REALLY think he was telling the truth? I believe he hasn't tested spoils/chrome mox, but i know he tested against chalice decks. How else could he possibly have put together that list? just random cards thrown in sleeves together magically make first at KC? mean deck is the most secretive team out there, theyre probably working on decks that will come out in 2-3 months, but because they don't play as often as a lot of people (most of them, not westredale or the cali section), their decklists arent released very often, only when smmenen writes an article or someone from meandeck runs a deck that theyve made in a tournament

Long.dec is dead post Mirrodin.  Nobody at that tournament was playing post Mirrodin decks though\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote (hulk3rules @ Nov. 03 2003,15:54)
Long.dec is dead post Mirrodin.  Nobody at that tournament was playing post Mirrodin decks though

Are you suggesting Stormbind is playable in a pre mirrodin environment?

Because it isn't.


So it MUST be a post-mirrodin deck.\n\n

[dicemanX]

Just to add a few statistics, long.dec has had trouble at Carta Magica (which I'd consider one of the strongest N.Am. monthly tournaments) in Montreal over the last two months, both pre- and post-Mirrodin. There are a lot of good decks played there, and long has trouble dealing with all of the Chalices, Null Rods and Pillars floating around, not to mention the abundance of FoWs that have shown up. The bad news for long.dec is these "hate-filled" decks aren't necessarily gunning for long itself, which means it will always have a tough time making top eight let alone winning a tournament. I've seen long lose to Fish, Keeper, Chalice-Black, Stacker2, Fish, Dragon etc.

I'm a bit surprised that Steve went with long.dec in the end. Somehow I was sure he would have played the best deck instead .\n\n

[Jacob Orlove]

Just so people know: I removed the "excess" quotes from those two posts. There's no need for Hyppie Tourach or Urza's Child to get quoted by people who aren't responding to them.


Back on topic, Chalice should have already been in your MD, unless you expect more than half of your matchups to be keeper mirrors.

[Smmenen]

I did agonize a bit over what deck to play.  My theory of type one is that you let your gut tell you what to play at the last minute.  I had quite a few decks ready to go including my Dragon and Stax.  

Fact is, I beleive Long is still the best deck in the format.  And I hold strongly to that belief.  

At first I assumed that Chalice would be everywhere - but soon I noticed that people were "out-thinking" themselves and moving chalices to the SB.  Further, I did a little test for myself.  I sat down one day a few weeks ago and goldfished pretending that a Chalice for zero was in play before my first turn.  I found that if I assumed I had a chain of Vapor in my deck I had a remarkable chance.  Furthermore, I would get hands with double ritual, or a tutor and quite frequently be able to play a Bargain or something broken with the Rituals, Mana Vault, Sol Ring, and other cards despite not being able to play zero casting cost spells.

I tested the Seal of Cleansing and found it to be absolutely terrible against everything - even against Dragon it was too slow.  Overload was absolutely perfect.  It was an instant and it dealt with what I feel is Long's worst enemy: Sphere of Resistence.  I fear that card more than Null Rod and Chalice Combined.  Overload deals with all three hate cards.  

The second reason is that in my testing, it has performed the best of any deck against the entire field and has no truly bad matchups.  It often was just too fast even for Dragon (we were testing Dragon with three Chalice in the SB), and once we realized this I was very impressed.

The third reason for playing long is that one of my theories of type one is that you play the most powerful deck.  The most powerful deck will likely overpower any slower hate deck, and over power an equally broken deck.  Long, I feel, is the most powerful deck in the format.  

Finally, the speed of long has suggested, time and again, that it outraces hate - and even if it doesn't it is resilient enough in an experienced player to deal with it.

Althoough, as a caveat, I don't know how well it would work for people who don't have the level of experience that I have with the deck.  But I think most people would be fine with the list I used in a Chalice heavy field.  I was prepared for Chalice, but thankfully didn't see any.

Stephen Menendian\n\n

[Eastman]

Quote With Smmenen bringing long.dec back from the dead, does chalice of the void need to be main deck in keeper?

Back from the dead? what!? how is it back from the dead? Did they restrict chalice?

Or are we using a 28 person tourney to gauge the meta.. ? Stormbind is playable?

Don't get me wrong, I still maindeck Chalice; but I don't see what has changed in the last week to effect it's inclusion.

It seems like this thread was written based on some strange grey assumption that there is new information.\n\n

[Smmenen]

Quote (Eastman @ Nov. 03 2003,16:09)

Quote With Smmenen bringing long.dec back from the dead, does chalice of the void need to be main deck in keeper?

Back from the dead? what!? how is it back from the dead? Did they restrict chalice?

So you think Long is dead?  Go ahead and keep thinking that.

Steve

[hulk3rules]

@Smmenen:

Seriously- were there any workshop decks at all at your tournament?  Workshops have been all over New England.  There were 2 in the top 8 at Cape Cod, 3 at Stokinger's tournament, and 2 at Jeff's tournament in Boston.  Workshop decks are extremely powerfull, and I don't see how Long can stand up to a deck with 4 maindeck spheres and 4 maindeck chalices as well.  Can we really take your results from this weekend seriously with the top 8 decks posted?

[Darke]

Well, as Steve's weekly testing partner I can vouch that Steve's current sideboard for Long can take care of all but the sickest and most broken Workshop hands for both traditional Stax and Welder MUD builds. Unless Workshop can drop both Sphere and/or Chalice for 0-1 ASAP and follow up with consistent threats (Smokestack, precisely timed Tangle Wires and/or Rack and Ruins on key artifacts post sideboard, Wastes/Strips on key land) then Long can eventually Burning Wish out whatever resilient sideboard answers it needs, whether Overloads or Meltdowns.

Post sideboard it gets even harder, as maindeck Overloads are pretty tough to deal with unless multiple degenerate threats are drawn. I would say that it is clearly in Long's favor to generally win the match against Workshop decks, unless the Workshop player drops an extremely broken hand and can follow that up with good threats. Otherwise Long will simply bulldoze over whatever obstacles are placed in its path.

Chalice is merely a temporary impediment and not a deck killer;it needs to be followed up with substance or it will merely delay the inevitable.

[Eastman]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 03 2003,19:19)

Quote (Eastman @ Nov. 03 2003,16:09)

Quote With Smmenen bringing long.dec back from the dead, does chalice of the void need to be main deck in keeper?

Back from the dead? what!? how is it back from the dead? Did they restrict chalice?

So you think Long is dead?  Go ahead and keep thinking that.

Steve

No I never said it was 'dead'... I'm wondering why specifically we think it's 'back' all of a sudden..

did you read the rest of my post?

[Smmenen]

Quote (hulk3rules @ Nov. 03 2003,16:52)@Smmenen:

Seriously- were there any workshop decks at all at your tournament?  Workshops have been all over New England.  There were 2 in the top 8 at Cape Cod, 3 at Stokinger's tournament, and 2 at Jeff's tournament in Boston.  Workshop decks are extremely powerfull, and I don't see how Long can stand up to a deck with 4 maindeck spheres and 4 maindeck chalices as well.  Can we really take your results from this weekend seriously with the top 8 decks posted?

As if I've never played any workshop decks when i've helped develop/work on no less than THREE separate major workshop archetypes (including the secret Crazy Stax).  Thanks Darke for chiming in.  I know workshop very well - after all, I own five of them.

Eastman I read your post but that doesn't negate the logical inference of your opening statement.

Steve

[wuaffiliate]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 03 2003,19:19)

Quote (Eastman @ Nov. 03 2003,16:09)

Quote With Smmenen bringing long.dec back from the dead, does chalice of the void need to be main deck in keeper?

Back from the dead? what!? how is it back from the dead? Did they restrict chalice?

So you think Long is dead?  Go ahead and keep thinking that.

Steve

i dont fear long when playing fish at all, game 1 is pretty scary because they can just go off. but game 2 i have so much hate its not funny. i 2-1 a fully powered long this weekend without much trouble.

crypts/rods/stifles/fow/misd/standstill/double curious clouds own long.

i do however believe that a very good player playing it in a hate filled environment can still win the tourney.

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Smmenen @ Nov. 03 2003,21:14)

Quote (hulk3rules @ Nov. 03 2003,16:52)@Smmenen:

Seriously- were there any workshop decks at all at your tournament?  Workshops have been all over New England.  There were 2 in the top 8 at Cape Cod, 3 at Stokinger's tournament, and 2 at Jeff's tournament in Boston.  Workshop decks are extremely powerfull, and I don't see how Long can stand up to a deck with 4 maindeck spheres and 4 maindeck chalices as well.  Can we really take your results from this weekend seriously with the top 8 decks posted?

As if I've never played any workshop decks when i've helped develop/work on no less than THREE separate major workshop archetypes (including the secret Crazy Stax).  Thanks Darke for chiming in.  I know workshop very well - after all, I own five of them.

Steve-

You did a very good job of not responding to what I said at all.

Thanks

[Gabethebabe]

Quote (Darke @ Nov. 04 2003,00:17).....then Long can eventually Burning Wish out whatever resilient sideboard answers it needs, whether Overloads or Meltdowns.....

Burning Wish
1R
Sorcery
Choose a sorcery card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Burning Wish from the game.

Overload
R
Instant
Kicker 2 (You may pay an additional 2 as you play this spell.)
Destroy target artifact if its converted mana cost is 2 or less. If the kicker cost was paid, destroy that artifact if its converted mana cost is 5 or less instead.

[Zherbus]

Quote (hulk3rules @ Nov. 04 2003,03:57)Steve-

You did a very good job of not responding to what I said at all.

Thanks

I think what Smmenen was saying is that by virtue of himself being on the forefront of developing and testing Workshop variants, he has a good handle on how the matchups should play out. I think another thing he was implying was that despite no Workshop decks making top 8, he was prepared to deal with it.

My personal thoughts based of our testing is that Workshop can certainly win against Long. However, with the speed involved with Long.dec and it's methods in dealing with Chalice/Sphere as a fail-safe in the event of a broken Mud/Stax start, I think Long is capable in dealing with Workshop.

Does this answer your question, Brian?

[Toad]

Thanks to my experience of the matchup from the Welder MUD's side of the board, I can tell this matchup is far from a bye for Prison decks, even with 4 Chalice of the Void and 4 Sphere of Resistance in the maindeck. Mulliganning into a Chalice, dropping it for 0 on your first turn then sitting and waiting for the opponent's concession is useless.

As my teammate Darke stated previously, Chalice of the Void is nothing more than a delaying tool. It shifts Long's first or second turn kill towards a more likely third or fourth turn (time needed for Long to find a solution to the Chalice, Chain of Vapor or whatever else) kill. Chalice will buy 2 turns to the Prison deck player, which will have these 2 more turns to settle a true lock the Long player won't be able to break. This includes dropping a Sphere of Resistance (which is almost mandatory) and/or heavy Wastelanding. I've lost games against Long with a Sphere on the board, simply because I kept hands that did not put enough pressure on Long's ressources.

Quite frankly, this matchup is very skill intensive, and the best player with the best knowledge of his deck will almost always win. Steven has a great experience with both decks, and this helps a lot. Know your ennemy. He playtested the matchup for hours and knows how Workshop decks work, which means he starts the game with a heavy advantage over an unexperienced player. Workshop.dec wrecks Long in your metagame ? Then Long players must be bad players. If both players have the same knowledge of the matchup and the same skills, Long has a slight advantage, which is why Prison brings more hate after sideboarding, such as Rack and Ruin or Gorilla Shaman (hell, some Prison decks are packing Null Rod in their sideboards!). Or the Workshop player has to know the right tricks to turn this hard matchup into a more favourable one. But that's another story I won't detail here, as every player who spend some time to test the matchup can get to the right conclusions about how to play the Workshop deck here.

Matt\n\n

[hulk3rules]

Quote (Toad @ Nov. 04 2003,08:20)As my teammate Darke stated previously, Chalice of the Void is nothing more than a delaying tool. It shifts Long's first or second turn kill towards a more likely third or fourth turn (time needed for Long to find a solution to the Chalice, Chain of Vapor or whatever else) kill. Chalice will buy 2 turns to the Prison deck player, which will have these 2 more turns to settle a true lock the Long player won't be able to break.

And 2 turns is plenty of time for a workshop deck to throw down another card to stunt the long player, that being another chalice/sphere, or even tangle wire- which shuts down access to burning wish for at least 2 more turns.  I feel as if my quetion warranted a response from Smmenen, rather then just a "I built workshop- stfu."  

But hey- Smmenen piloted long to "first" in a field which contained no less then two stormbind.decs.  He must be doing something right if he can handle that real ultimate power.

[jpmeyer]

What do people want to hear him say?  He played the deck because he thought it was the best.  Not the other way around.