Keeper Choices

[CrazyCarl]

This is the Keeper i'm running currently.

4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
2 Morphling
1 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Cunning Wish
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Braingeyser
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Impulse
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 The Abyss

1 Dismantling Blow
1 Balance

1 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth

1 Fire/Ice

1 Jayemdae Tome
1 Zuran Orb

1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine
3 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Library of Alexandria
4 City of Brass
1 Undiscovered Paradise

SB
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Dwarven Miner
1 Gorilla Shaman
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Circle of Protection Red
1 Circle of Protection Black
1 Allay(Destroy enchantment for 1W buyback of 3)
1 Scrying Glass
1 Misdirection

Cunning Wish:  This card in word is AMAZING.  Game one it can get you to Misdirection, Plow, Red Blast or Allay.  I'm thinking about moving an Edict into the board, but I think that would proably be over kill.  Game 2, it gets even better, at least vs control.  You bring in the anti-control stuff, but you can wish for a Plow or Fire/Ice if they drop a troublesome Miner or Monkey. Or you can go get Mystical Tutor to fetch Ancestral, or you could get plow or the Misdirection(I leave it in the board for that reason).  This is in the slot where most people have a Plow(which is why there are 2 StoP are in the board)

Impulse:  Some people have cut this, i've left it in.  If I wasn't playing it, i'd probably be using a Gorilla Shaman.  However, there are only 2 fully powered decks in my area, and against other decks, I'd rather have the extra search that Impulse provides.  I'm not sure if I should leave it as is, or maybe switch it for a Vampiric Tutor.

Jayemdae Tome:  I really think this is just a "win more" card.  I really don't know what to put in it's place.  I may put in a Teferi's Response or even another Plow due to the increased popularity of aggro decks in my area.


Cards I'd like to add but don't know how good they'd be

Powder Keg
Burning Wish(mainly for the clasm or a Twister)
Chainer's Edict(I think the instant speed is very important, but I've never had a chance to try it.)
Pyroclasm(in the board)

[Shortguy]

I have always wanted to try 61 cards in my Keeper, yet never found myself brave enough to try it, (just too scared of mana screw  ).

A few points I would like to share:

Cunning Wish: That Does seem like a good idea, although is the loss of tempo for 3 cards in the board really worth playing? Does Cunning Wish do something that Vamp could not do as well if not better? I believe the Cunning Wish could be amazing in certain situations, (escpecially after sideboard when you could look for sided out spot removal against control), yet to me, for some reason, I find the three mana cost prohibitive. Also, it is a tutor that could 'effectively' be countered, because then, you have no other way to 'draw' into the the spell you were looking for. For me, this spot is better suited to your Vampiric Tutor, or simply the StP you cut from the maindeck. True, Vamp does not fetch you MisD whenever you want it, but I find Vamp more flexible simply because of it's price. Besides, if you insist on running it, why cut a StP? StP is supposed to be spot removal to stabilize before an Abyss is dropped (which is, btw also able to be fetched with Vamp), mainly because you said aggro was getting more popular in your area. So would you really like to use a 3cc card to fetch the StP, negating the fact that StP is good because it has a Very Low cc and good tempo advantage? In my opinion, if you find running this card helpful in many situations, by all means use it, but I would cut the Tome in order to run it. As you said, the Tome is a 'win-more' card, and Cunning Wish IMO is a tutor to help you stabilize, which would be much more effective overall. In no way am I trying to insult Cunning Wish, I love the card, (have a T2 deck that centers around it's flexibility), yet I find the cost, and loss of tempo for minimal gain in choices, is not fast enough for the fast-paced T1, and not good enough to edge out Vamp.

Impulse: I love the lone Impulse in my Keeper (it's foily so yea  ). I play in an environment full of other Keeper decks so I dont like Vamp (bad card economy), but if my metagame had more aggro (like yours), I would definitely play it. Also I find Merchant Scroll #2 too 'clunky'.

Pyroclasm: You stated that aggro is popular in your area. Pyroclasm is AMAZING against aggro, especially against Sligh and Stompy.

Powder Keg: Read point on Pyroclasm.

   I'm still relatively new to T1, so I'm not sure if my opinions are truly 'valid' but above are my feelings on some of the card choices. If you do end up cutting Cunning Wish, add one StP maindeck, and you will have room for Pyroclasm and/or Powder Keg in the SideBoard.

I suppose that was my $0.2

-Dustin

[DigDug]

I've had Cunning Wish in since the pre-release, and you're right, it is a great card.  I had also put it in for the Swords spot, but changed it to the Edict's spot two days ago.  Against aggro, you want to cast Swords for W, not 2UW.  When facing control, 3BU isn't nearly as bad because you're going to use it late in the game when you have lots of mana or earlier in the game (when it's safe) and just hold on to the Edict.

Against aggro fields, Vampiric Tutor is definitely better than Impulse.  If Abyss is sitting on the bottom of your library, you only have Demonic Tutor to get it without going through a chain.  You can then side out Vampiric Tutor for your Scrying Glass against control decks.

Jayemdae Tome isn't all that great anymore.  It's unusable against aggro and combo decks, and Scrying Glass is better against control decks.  My personal preference in this spot is a Moat.  You have nine white sources plus the Lotus, so it is castable.  I use one more source of white and don't have any trouble casting it at all.  If you like Impulse a lot, it could also go here.

[CrazyCarl]

I failed to mention that my metagame is mostly control, but aggro is becoming more popular and I don't want to start losing to it because i'm unprepared.

I'll definately cut the Jayamdae Tome, most likely for Plow or for the Vampiric Tutor(Once I can find an Asian or foil one ;P)

I've actually never run Vampiric Tutor, and i've never really wanted it, so I may not even run it.  I may run a Keg because D'Avanzo's Zoo is quite a bitch  and I think a Keg or two might help out.  Then again, I may just revert back to playing OSE for Kegs + Mishra's.

Thanks for the imput

Carl

[jpmeyer]

First off, Cunning Wish is not a loss of tempo because it's a card-parity instant.

Second, what exactly is Allay there for?  Parfait?

Third, like I said in the other Keeper thread, I quite frankly cannot think of a reason to run Tome over Scrying Glass.

[Anonymous]

Nor over Treasure Trove (can be pitched to FoW, doesn't tap, etc.)
Tempo is considered to have a much bigger relation to mana than it does to cards; the 3 mana is in fact why I'm debating Cunning Wish for my keeper (that, and that it can't get back a Will or something like Burning).

[kl0wn]

First I just have to say something about the Allay...

AH HA HA HA!!

Now that that's out of the way, you should drop the book, it's really way too slow I think. Against aggro it's a win more card as you already have the game in the bag if you can afford to drop 4cc during your main phase. Against control it's like a Scrying glass, but worse. I'm definitely with JP on this one.

It may sound janky, but I'd consider running Concentrate over it. As a side note, I'd also consider running Concentrate over Braingeyser. Same argument for FOF over Stroke before it was restricted...its nearly the same card, but costs less and does more immediately, which is when you need it.

Although everything I say should be taken with a grain of salt, as I don't play Keeper and don't really plan to in the near future. I have played OSE since before it had red though, so my idea of a good control deck is one that can win when it has the opportunity to and doesn't have to wait for a Morphling...

[CrazyCarl]

JP: Yes Allay is vs Parfait and Enchantress and it is quite good because if they cause it to "be countered upon resolution" then you can regrowth or will it back(will will get it back because buyback is a TING ;D)

I'm also considering adding a Shattering Pulse just because I think it might be a beating and a half vs ALOT of stuff(Stacker/Funker whatever, Mask etc)

I mean, Welder could fizzle the pulse, but you just need to kill the welder???

[Shortguy]

It seems that you are using considerable SB space to make the most out of Cunning Wish. This leads to great flexibility out of an Unrestricted tutor in game 1, yet Cunning Wish becomes weaker in games 2 and 3.  So far, you have lost a spot removal in the maindeck (StP) which also takes a space in the board (1), you have an 'additional' Disenchant effect (Allay) (2), Misdirection (3), and maybe Shattering Pulse (4).  So to optimize using the Wish you have lost spot removal, and four spaces in the board, also, Cunning Wish, although flexible, only fetches additional effects that the other tutors could get, that perform about the same effect, i.e (Mystical could get D-Blow, MisD, and StP if he were to run StP maindeck). With all these 'wasted' spaces, you might as well optimize your sideboard, which would make more of a difference in the match. (Games 2 & 3 are more relevant than just game 1). On the other hand though, I just remembered that Cunning Wish could get RFG cards (Ancestral-Regrowth-Ancestral-Will-Ancestral-Wish-Ancestral)  . I believe that Cunning Wish would be more effective in your deck by minimizing the number of SB cards you have dedicated to abusing with the Wish by broadening their effects. (Another D-Blow or Disenchant, for example will take the place of both Shattering Pulse and Allay, yes those have flashback, but with another D-Blow maindeck, that should be plenty enough Enchantment/Artifact removal unless Parfait and Stacker ect. are VERY popular in your area.) This is also because, I dont think that an essentially 8 mana Disenchant (3 for the Wish, 2 for the spell, 3 for buyback making 6UW) for the first use is fast enough to deal with Parfait, Enchantress and Artifact heavy decks- Even after that first use it still costs 5 to use, so IMO buyback becomes less relevant. So right now I'm suggesting that it might be better to lessen the impact of Cunning Wish on your SB, I believe you will find those extra spaces useful.

-Dustin

[CrazyCarl]

I'll have to give it a try.  So far i'm not having that big of a problem with the 'board.  Though I need to fit in a Caltrops(Damn mongeese......).  Game 2+3, the wish is still fine as it can fetch Impulse or Mystical Tutor or something pitched to FoW.  However, i'm not sure if this is good enough to keep it in the deck...  I'll post results  the next time I play it.

[Fishhead]

> It seems that you are using considerable SB space to
> make the most out of Cunning Wish.

I was going to experiment this week with 3xBurning Wish and moving Mind Twist, Y-Will and Balance to the SB, along with Braingeyser and Duress which I dont normally play.  

It could be a horrible disaster or a fabulous success, but the only way to find out is to try it under fire.  My worries are those already mentioned; loss of tempo and loss of sideboard space.  I'm also worried about bad synergy with D-Tutor, V-Tutor and M-Tutor.  The payoff is having the right sorcery at the right time.

Playtesting the Wishes seems like one of the most important tasks for T1 players.  (Now that my box of Judgement is here, I can get right to it.     )

[kl0wn]

I've found that Cunning Wish is incredibly good. I'd like to share a couple of stories if I may...


Game 2 of an OSE vs. OSE match, I cast an early Scrying Glass. My opponent Drains, I force, he Red Blasts. We're both out of counters and I have a Lotus, untapped City and Cunning Wish in my hand with 2 lands. I sac Lotus and cast Cunning Wish and grab a BEB(I sided in all my REBs) and counter his REB. My Scrying Glass resolves, the rest is history.

Story number 2:

Game 1 of another OSE vs. OSE match: I have a Library out with 5 cards in hand, and I had pitched my Teferi's Response to a Misdirection earlier. Thinking the coast is clear, my opponent plays a Wasteland and tries to kill  my Library before it can become active. I respond by casting Cunning Wish for my previously removed Teferi's Response and cast it, bringing me up to 6 cards with a draw coming up.

There have been other times when Cunning Wish has come in handy, but these have been the most pronounced by far.

[riverboa11]

kl0wn--Pretty good examples.  What did you cut from your deck for the Wish?

[kl0wn]

I didn't really cut anything from the deck. I just recently got a hold of the Volcanic Islands, so I built rOSE from the ground up with Cunning Wish in mind.

I'll post the deck in a seperate thread, since I don't want to be a hijacker.

[FeverDog]

First, i would like to say that i have considered Concentrate myself because its a more effecient card-drawer than Geyser and you rarely Drain anything bigger than 2-3cc anyway. I think the main thing i dont like is that its MUCH weaker in the late game but i guess that depending on your metagame this might not be that much of an issue.

If you want a decent replacement for Geyser, try Skeletal Scrying. Its cheaper, its an instant and it cant be Misdirected or REBed. The life loss isnt really an issue(who wouldnt pay 3 life for 3 cards?) and the grave-robbing is easily worked around by removing counters, lands and misc. stuff.

[CrazyCarl]

I had given serious thoguht to adding Skeletal Scrying, however, in Keeper where you don't have Kegs or Mishra's to blunt an early assault, the life loss does make me weary.  However, at Origins(The next big Type 1 I plan to play in) Scrying could be golden in all the control mirrors I plan on playing, so I'll have to test it out the Wednesday before with whatever type 1 players I find.

[Razor Azure Wasp]

Quote (FeverDog @ June 26 2002,09:47)First, i would like to say that i have considered Concentrate myself because its a more effecient card-drawer than Geyser and you rarely Drain anything bigger than 2-3cc anyway. I think the main thing i dont like is that its MUCH weaker in the late game but i guess that depending on your metagame this might not be that much of an issue.

If you want a decent replacement for Geyser, try Skeletal Scrying. Its cheaper, its an instant and it cant be Misdirected or REBed. The life loss isnt really an issue(who wouldnt pay 3 life for 3 cards?) and the grave-robbing is easily worked around by removing counters, lands and misc. stuff.

Well Concentrate is a straight draw three cards with no drawbacks or strings attached, it cannot be misdirected either...

about Skeletal Scrying... I don't like the lack of synergy between the Scrying and Yawgmoth's Will/Regrowth... I see an early scrying invalidating Will and Regrowth + a late scrying might be impossible due you condition of life.

I'd stick to either Concentrate or Geyser

Closed. This thread is way to old to summon from the grave its been sitting in for months.