Impulse Keeper

[Fishhead]

> The problem that I've found with Impulse is that you
> need to cut cards that you'd want to find with Impulse
> to fit in Impulse.

We'd all have 100 card piles if we put all the cool cards that are available into our decks.  (And it would be fun too.

At this point I just accept that I need to make concessions in order to have a solid base.  Trying to argue that a Regrowth or whatever belongs in the deck because its more "broken" gets silly - I could say that "Sylvan Library > Tundra" but "improving" your deck by removing cards, starting with the least broken, isn't really improving it.  "Why are you playing Mana Crypt?" "Because Mana Crypt is more broken than Underground Sea.  <flip> Ouch.  I take 3."  

All things considered, I think I have an advantage keeping other people Sylvans, Regrowths and Merchant Scrolls from resolving - I've likely seen more cards than they have due to the searching and therefore set myself up better.  Their cards may be more "broken" but that doesnt matter much.  What matters is who manages to *resolve* their broken cards.

[Rakso]

Please be responsive to the argument.

The comment was that you end up taking what seem to be the least broken cards in your deck to fit in Impulse.

So you take out Merchant Scroll and Sylvan Library first, which are two of the best filter cards in your deck.

So duh.

[Freddie]

I cannot say witch card config choice is better (the NGR config, or impulse config) but I can say that the impulse build is way better for me.

I did playtest an exact copy of Rakso's deck for 4 tournaments and about 10-12 fun games. Althoug it is a powerful deck, and sylvan was awesome, I was consistantly wishing for impulses in there.

In the end that is all that matters, what works for each individual.

If the NGR config seems to not get mana hosed, and hit mana patches at other time, then more power to you... don't use impulse.

But for me Impulse (helps to) get around those problems circumventing early mana problems, either by a bad hand, or by a heavy LD element from the other side of the table, or by topdecking the best of the next 4, after a depleted hand.

-Freddie

[Fishhead]

> The comment was that you end up taking what seem to
> be the least broken cards in your deck to fit in Impulse.

Sigh.  If this is directed at my discussion, I think we've gotten our signals terminally crossed.  (If not, are you talking to JP or Freddie!??  Or Legend?  Why did his name come up!?  (Actually, I have noticed that the ability to edit posts makes these threads a lot harder to follow; people keep coming back and changing or deleting posts without marking the -edits-. )

Anyway, I was arguing that its *silly* to try and compare two cards, decide which is more broken and then play it just for that reason.  The "Mana Crypt is more broken than Tundra" example was supposed to make that point.  I think we agree on this point?!

> So you take out Merchant Scroll and Sylvan Library
> first, which are two of the best filter cards in your deck.

For me, I took out Sylvan and Regrowth, mainly to go to 4 colors.  I still play the Merchant Scroll and the Mystical; though I can see dropping one or the other especially since I am playing Vampiric again.  Which is least useful to the deck configuration is a different question that which is least broken.

The thing I was originally aiming at was the comment that playing Impulse instead of three other cards (for instance, Merchant Scroll, Sylvan and Regrowth) "reduces consistency".  I didnt buy into that arguement.

[Freddie]

Here is my current decklist that I am pretty happy with, but I am expressing a few concern below:

Blue:  (21)
Stroke of Genius: R
Brain Geyser: R
Fact Or Fiction: R
Ancestral Recal: R
Time Walk: R
Mystical Tutor: R
Impulse: 4 <- could loose 1
Mana Drain: 4
Force Of Will: 4
Merchant Scroll: 1 <- new, testing
Morphling: 2

Black: (6)
Mind Twist: R
Demonic Tutor: R
Vampiric Tutor: R
The Abyss: 1
Yawgmoth’s Will: R
Diabolic Edict: 1

White: (3)
Dismanteling Blow: 1
Balance: R
Swords to Plowshares: 1

Red: (2)
Gorilla Shaman: 1
Fire/ Ice <- Haven't tested this in a long time, giving it another shot.

Artifact: (1)
Zuran Orb: 1

Mana Sources: (27)
SoLoMoxen: R x 7
Library Of Alexandra: R
StipMine: R
Waste Land: 3
Volcanic Island: 3
Undiscovered paradise: 1
Tundra: 3
City Of Brass: 4
Underground Sea: 4

SideBoard: (15)
Red Elemental Blast: 4
Misdirection: 1
Tranquil Domain: 1
Dwarven Miner
Diabolic Edict: 1
Swords To Plowshares: 1
Enlightened Tutor: R
Circle of Protection: Red: 1
Tormod’s Crypt: 1
Aura Fracture: 1
Compost: 1
Moat: 1

I am pretty settled into what I want in my keeper right now all but 3-4 slots, with 2-3 grunts of resistance on certain card choices...

-Cunning Wish (I like the ideas I've been seeing around, but not from Mike long!)

-Counterspell

-Misdirection

-Wasteland/ Tundra, going to 28 mana

Any suggestions would be great...

Thanks
-Freddie

[Dante]

I would lose an Impulse to add either the counterspell or the misdirection (or both).  I've always been happy with my one vanilla counterspell and wouldn't cut it.

Dante

[Freddie]

You have a really good pointe Dante, The senerio I keep imagining is one were my opponent drops a bomb, and I have crap in my hand, then topdeck a counterspell.

Then die

But if the same senario happends, and I topdeck an impulse, I'll be able to start some sort or chain that will hopefully find me an answer.

I definately see your point, but can you see mine?

What words of wisdom can I hear that will aleveate this unhealthy grasping to 4 impulses?

Do any of you have any?

-Freddie

[Dante]

I understand why you want the impulse in that situation, but I would never go below 9 hard counters in my Keeper deck.  If you really want the 4th impulse, try cutting the vampiric, the merchant scroll, or maybe the braingeyser....

Dante

[CrazyCarl]

Freddie: What is your metagame like?

Carl

[jpmeyer]

I think the ultimate problem with Impulse in Keeper is that you end up removing the kind of cards that you want to find with Impulse so that you can run Impulse.

[Fishhead]

Quote (jpmeyer @ July 24 2002,17:20)I think the ultimate problem with Impulse in Keeper is that you end up removing the kind of cards that you want to find with Impulse so that you can run Impulse.

I feel a sense of deja-vu; look back 10 posts to see JP post this identical arguement.  

Seriously though JP; how many "good cards" does Keeper want to run?  A lot more than it can afford to, thats for sure.  Thats what I meant by saying that we'd all run 100 card decks if we put in all the "good cards" we wanted.  

So it comes down to where you are going to make those painful last cuts.  For me; I like to start with a solid mana-base and some Impulses for consistency.  I still have room for 30 "good cards" after that.  (If you dont play 3xImpulse, you have room for 33 "good cards"; you get to make 3 less cuts.  But theres still a ton of stuff that hovers on the edge of making the cut.  Goblin Trenches?  But what to cut?  Tormods Crypt?  But what to cut?  Etc.)

I think you could take your quote and change it to

Quote
I think the ultimate problem with Land in Keeper is that you end up removing the kinds of cards you want to cast with Land so that you can run Land.

and it would still be just as true.  But it doesnt mean that your deck would function better if you followed the implication and started cutting Lands.  You need a baseline of unexciting stuff to make the deck run smoothly, I consider Impulse to be that sort of card.

[kirdape3]

I think what JP is attempting to say is that Impulse is suboptimal because running Impulse forces you to cut broken cards in place.  Keeper wins a lot of the time by simply being more broken than the other guy, and running Impulse screws you out of X broken cards.

[jpmeyer]

What I'm saying is that Keeper does not run redundent cards like mono-blue does.  Mono-blue could cut 4 of its weaker counters for Impulses and it would strengthen the deck since those Impulses would be either strong counters or answers (like Morphling or B2B.)

In Keeper you need to cut cards like Sylvan Library for Impulse, but against a control deck (and possibly a black deck) you'll want to get that Sylvan.

[Rakso]

Are we still in the part where I reiterate that I don't understand the point of cutting cards that make your deck more consistent (Sylvan, Merchant Scroll) to add cards that make your deck more consistent (Impulse) but with more limited effects?

[Zherbus]

I'm sure I, like Jp and Rakso, am going to repeat myself here...

The time spent casting Impulse is better spent on casting business spells. You already have sufficient search/tutoring, why turn the deck into just a jumble of searching and lands? Also when you are drawing cards off, say, an ancestral, stroke, whatever, you dont want be be drawing more impulses.

Maybe I'm just a Sylvan whore, but I cant see cutting this in favor of Impulse and I cant reasonably consider anything else to cut for it.

Ask yourself these questions:

1) Do you win Keeper Mirrors? Do you even have to worry about Keeper mirrors?

2) Would you be better off playing something more streamlined and more redundant? (Oath, BBS, etc)

3) Make on of you impulse's special so you can tell it apart from the other two. When you draw that impulse, keep track of whether a sylvan would have been better. Maybe do the same for the other cards you are sacrificing... Regrowth is good, but not always spectacular.

Anyways, my thoughts.

[dandan]

I think most people have missed an important point in Freddie's reasoning.
4 colours is more consistent than 5 colours
He has cut two green cards (tricky to cast) and added 2 blue ones (easy to cast and make FoW more consistent). Looks like the third Impulse is for the 9th counter which will make Suicide a fun matchup especially as Regrowth has gone too.
I can't see what else has beencut to squeeze in the 4th Impulse.
I don't agree but I see the logic.
I just wish he could spell 'lose' occasionally
 

[drkavngr]

Ask any person that plays against keeper often enough, how do you kill a keeper?

9/10 times they will say attack the mana base.  

5 colors in keeper are riskier then 4 because you are supporting another color.  I think streamlining the one major weakness in the deck offsets the redundancy of other cards, (Oath, BBS, etc) or the consistency of library, that Steve suggests.

I am not sure that there will be a convergence of opinion here because ultimately its up the deckbuilder and his metagame.  (guessing game)

[Freddie]

Good Call Drkavngr, I'll drop it, I was hoping for some revolutionary tidbit or nugget of wisdom, that would make me go "Oh of course!!" and somehow make me invincible.

Guess thats hoping for allot.

I'll drop it.

DanDan:

lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose lose

 

-Freddie

[FeverDog]

I have tried cutting green from Keeper many times and it does help the mana base, but only a little, im not sure that it helps enough to justify losing the green cards.

However, if you are going to play 4 color Keeper, i wouldnt replace the green cards with Impulses. Keeper players are always bitching about not having enough space for a 10th counter, StP, Response or some other card like a second Shaman. This is where i believe cutting green can help the most, it lets you run those few cards that you just couldnt find room for before.

 

[PsychoCid]

It's not that Impulse, in and of itself, just sucks or that it just sucks in 5c Control, it's that there are better options and no extra slots to dedicate to Impulse.  I was fine with Matt D'Avanzo replacing Vamp with one, for style as well as use, but that's about the only time I'd use it.

[Freddie]

It has been a long while since I have posted my Keeper, so here we go: (Please refrain from laughing to hard , also please excuse the abbreviations, if it is to much, I will edit, let me know)

Blue: 19
Morph: 1
Drain: 4
FOW: 4
Impulse: 4
Mystical: R
Ancestral: R
Walk: R
ForF: R
Geyser: R
Stroke: R

Black: 5
Abyss: 1
Twist: R
Will: R
Demonic: R
Vamp: R

White: 5
D. Blow: 2
Plow: 2
Balance: R

Red: 2
Shaman: 1
Fireball: 1

Artifact: 2
Zorb: 1
Phyrexian Phurnace: 1

Mana 27
SoLoMoxen: 7
LOA: R
StripWaste: 4
City: 4
Underground: 4
Tundra: 4
Volcanic: 3

Sideboard; 15
REB: 4
D. Edict: 2
Miner: 1
Tranq. Domain: 1
Misdirection: 1

Enlightened Tutor: R
Aura Fracture: 1
Moat: 1
Compost: 1
Tormod's Crypt: 1
Cop Red: 1

I made some far out decision and stuk to my guns (especially on the 4x impulse)...

My metagame is pretty aggro heavy, with this weird mix of reanimation/ WG Dragon.

This is were the Phurnace came in, at least it can be cycled, but it is good vs survival and possibly vs replenish and yawg will.

The 2nd Dblow is in responce to the enchantress, parfait, survival, and WG dragon decks, as although I could almost always find the 1 d.blow in the deck, 1 was rarely enough, since there was almost always another enchantment that needed a killin', and it at least cycles.

No Edict, because the Plow is stronger in an aggro infested enviornment, and it allowed me to evenly distribute the mana strain from being so dependant on black to giving me additional strong white options, 5 of each.

Fireball is the last itch to be scratched with this deck (for me at least) having a red X spell that can kill a few weenies and end the game turns early is cool, but sometimes less then flexible.

Although I was able to kill a sligh player with a 13 card SB against me, while he was holding no less then 2 REB/ Pyro's with the ball, and would have lost the counter war over the morphling.

SB stayed virtually the same, but I have been geeting beat down buy an enchantress deck with the squirlecraft combo in it, so I have considered losing a misdirect and a REB in favor of 2 Hibernations, and then losing another misc card for a presence of the master to put an end to this nonsence.

Well there you have it folks, the jankiest ass keeper you will find, perhaps even rivaling Mike Longs.

On the up side, it is as consistant as hell, and wins allot!

-Freddie\n\n