Keeper Kernals: Cunning Wish

[Big Blue]

Quote once you realize that Keeper is no longer a silver bullet based deck, you
                  realize that Vamp is expendable.

*sarcastic mode on*
Oh - Keeper is NOT about silver bullets anymore? Glad you told me - so I have to rename my Keeper deck into "Five-Colour-Control", which is a silver bullet based deck with Abyss, Balance, YawgWill and many good blue cards.
*sarcastic mode off*

I think Dozer nicely summarized the main difference between Cunning Wish and Vamp - while the Wish is in general 1 for 1 the Vamp is everything between the only card that saves you and an annyoing tutor.

I am not offended if good players like Azhrei don´t play it anymore - I just don´t get the logic behind it. The only matches where I side out Vamp are against Keeper and mono-U (and occassionally Combo, depending on which combo), and since these decks contribute to ca. 20-30% of my metagame that is ok (and I hope I don´t have to add again that Vamp is far from being dead in these matches as well - it is just that I need room for all the anti-control cards of my SB, so I am cutting good cards for better ones).

Maybe that´s just me, but in almost every tourney I encounter a situation where I Vamp in response to a Hymn which depletes my hand - and I usually go for Balance, Timetwister, Abyss or YawgWin.

[Zherbus]

Quote *sarcastic mode on*
Oh - Keeper is NOT about silver bullets anymore? Glad you told me - so I have to rename my Keeper deck into "Five-Colour-Control", which is a silver bullet based deck with Abyss, Balance, YawgWill and many good blue cards.
*sarcastic mode off*

Lets remain civil.

All I was saying is that silver bullets are hosers, and what Keeper runs now-a-days is good cards. Abyss is a hoser for aggro, sure. The rest is simply just GOOD cards.

If you rely too much on Abyss, what do you do when Abyss doesn't save you from aggro? Juggernauts and Mongeese to fall into it, and disenchant effects are working their way back into aggro deck in more force. I would rather have Abyss as just another good card that can save my ass rather than lean on it so much that once the crutch is broken, you fall on your ass.

Quote I think Dozer nicely summarized the main difference between Cunning Wish and Vamp - while the Wish is in general 1 for 1 the Vamp is everything between the only card that saves you and an annyoing tutor

Why are we still calling Cunning Wish a tutor?

You know what, I never thought I'd say this on my own site...I am done.

The only involvement I will have in this discussion, from now on, is by moderation.

[Fastbond]

Even though Vampiric Tutor is an advantage versus discard it iis at a disadvantage against land destruction.  If you do it in response to a Hymn you risk losing the mana source you need to cast the spell.

The best cards to go for are Balance(with which the card disadvantage aids the spell) and a version of timetwister(You would've lost the card anyways).  And, using Yawgmoth's Will is like drawing a bunch of cards so one lost won't hurt you too much.  However, it can be hard to get to three mana sometimes for Timetwister and Yawgmoth's Will.  And sometimes it can be hard to set up a balance.  Ancestral Recall is good but sometimes it just isn't a difference card.  Sometimes you draw the three cards when you're mana screwed and there just isn't a mana source.

Cunning Wish does cost three mana but it doesn't hinder your ability to topdeck mana sources for one turn.  And, you can't put your good cards in your sideboard because you really want to see cards like balance in your opening hand.  Cunning Wish can't really fetch broken cards.  It's a good choice but it'll reduce the overall brokenness of the deck.

Vampiric Tutor is good if you always manage to be able to fetch broken cards like balance or timetwister.  Cunning Wish is good if you want to fetch less broken silver bullet cards.

[CrazyCarl]

I really don't know what role you guys think Cunning Wish plays in Keeper.  It is by no means a tutor, or a "silver bullet fetcher"(Though I have done that on occasion by Wishing for a pitched Mystical Tutor).  Think of it as a counterspell that can also be a Shatter, a spot removal spell, a Misdirection, or an Edict.  It doesn't do anything more than that.  It's meant to add versatility that(in my deck anyways) Counterspell couldn't provide.

If you wanna run Vampiric Tutor GO FOR IT!!!  No one is trying to make you NOT run Vampiric.  Personally, I couldn't care less if you don't want to or want to run it.  The only question I'd ask is have you tried playing without it?  And when you did, did you miss it at all?  That's the only point the people not in favor of Vampiric in Keeper were trying to make.

ANYWAYS
Dozer: I was going to point out Starstorm to you(I saw the card at the pre-release and I was like "OMG! WISHABLE WRATH OF GOD!").  However, I do not plan on running it(though I will most likely give it a try to see how it works) mainly because it's double red casting cost.  If pyroclasm were an instant, I'd play it over Starstorm ANY day of the week.  But if you do try it out, i'll be interested to hear your results(I have only once in the past month or so wished I could Wish for a mass removal spell).\n\n

[Shade]

I don't play much Keeper anymore, due mainly to the reason that I can not afford to get the power for it and I'm not too fond of the weak mana base.  However, I've had my fair share of experience with the deck and can comment fairly on a couple points in this thread.

Vampiric Tutor - I don't know why this has fallen out of flavor with many Keeper players.  The sheer power of netting what you need, when you need it should make this a no-brainer.  Sure, it's slight card disadvantage, but no more so than FoW, MisD, and Mystical.  The 2 life isn't THAT big a deal, and Vamp can be sided out against aggro.

Tolarian Academy - Not running this due to Wastes is ridiculous.  The entire friggin' mana base is one large Wasteland target.  If an opponent Wastes this, it leaves another potential target alone.  Imagine this and LoA on the board at the same time and the opponent with only one Waste.  Win-win situation for you.

Cunning Wish - Ah, the basis of this thread.  I've been weary of the Wishes since their inception, but I DID say that this Wish may see some play.  The only thing that really sucks about it is the 3cc; at 2, it would be a no-brainer.  Still, if you only run 27 mana sources (as I would) this is nice for a MD spot.

//White (3):
1 Balance
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Swords to Plowshares

//Blue (19):
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Braingeyser
1 Cunning Wish
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Misdirection
2 Morphling
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Time Walk

//Black (6):
1 Chainer's Edict
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 The Abyss
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Yawgmoth's Will

//Red (1):
1 Gorilla Shaman

//Green (2):
1 Regrowth
1 Sylvan Library

//Split (1):
1 Fire/Ice

//Artifact (8):
7 SoLoMoxen
1 Zuran Orb

//Land (20):
4 City of Brass
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Strip Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
3 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15):
1 Aura Fracture
1 Circle of Protection: Red
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Dwarven Blastminer
1 Fire/Ice
1 Moat
2 Powder Keg
4 Red Elemental Blast
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Teferi's Response

[Big Blue]

[Cunning Wish]

ok, maybe we should not fight about definitions, because that´s truly pointless - whether you call it "Tutor", "Card-Fetcher" or "<INSERT NAME HERE>" does not change anything of the content of this card. I believe we all agree that Cunning Wish != Vampiric.

IMO Cunning Wish is very good and as I said in the August-thread on this topic, I believe it will be a "Standard" card in most Keeper decks due to its speed, colour and versality.  

CrazyCarl made a nice definition of this card:

Quote Think of it as a counterspell that can also be a Shatter, a spot removal spell, a
                  Misdirection, or an Edict.  It doesn't do anything more than that.  It's meant to add versatility
                  that(in my deck anyways) Counterspell couldn't provide.

That´s all - not more, but also not less (so it does make sense to play it in the 10th Counterspell-slot).

[Tolarian Academy]

Shade: the problem is, that it is the only coloured mana source (besides Moxen) that provides only one kind of coloured mana - sure, often it provides a bunch of it and it can be extremely broken (which is why it tends to make a come-back in many Keeper decks from time to time), but it increases the probability of colour-screw (and in some opening hands it is the final reason why you mulligan instead of keeping).

I am not saying TA is bad - I run it myself in Trinity Keeper for the combo. But I can understand everybody who is reluctant to play it as I have witnessed lost games which could have been won if TA were, say, a Tundra.

And against aggro it tends to be a card that is good while you are winning and bad while you are losing...

[Vampiric Tutor]

I guess, I have (at least) exhausted my contribution to the discussion on this card. Smmenen gave a more eloquent analysis than I could possibly do, so I´ll shut up...

[Silver bullets]

I concede that obviously  Keeper is not exclusively about Silver Bullets - it is also about countering, card-drawing, timing, surviving, and - hopefully - Morphling beatdown (in short, it is about versality, but Silver Bullets are one corner stone of it). And yes, even the mighty Abyss can be dead sometimes. But Silver Bullets always played a pivotal role in Keeper and, as far as I can see, always Will in every Balanced Keeper deck. To say that they went out of fashion is somewhat naive. Just for the sake of definition and to preempt semantic masturbation: I call the following cards Silver Bullets: Abyss, Mindtwist, Timetwister, Balance, ZOrb, YawgWin, Sylvan, LoA, Fire&Ice, Mox Monkey, Dwarven Miner (or its youger brother), Chainer´s Edict, D-Blow - simply because each of them can provide actual or virtual card advantage against the right deck (and likewise most of them can be essentially dead or at least much less effective against the wrong deck).
Every Keeper deck I know seems to run at least 8 of these 13 Silver Bullets, so with about the same precentage of truth that Keeper is a "Counter-deck" it is a "Silver-Bullet based deck". Maybe let us just call it Keeper

Sure, if there is nothing to shoot you just save your Bullets and accumulate card advantage until your opponent concedes. But these quiet games where you suddenly realize on turn fourteen that you might win without further ado are rather rare against good decks, according to my experience.

I urge you to re-word your 'naive' comment. One might take that as being inflammatory. The same could be said about your "sarcastic mode" comments.

-Zherbus