Revisiting Keeper

[PsychoCid]

CF:  One Brainstorm to help with Oath does not constitute use of cantrips as intended =P

[Zherbus]

Quote Sorry if these things have been mentioned before... I've been following the thread, but damn, it's involved...

Anyway, What makes Brainstorm so much better than Impulse?  Just the lower cc?  Freddie?  You still running your Impulse keeper?  Sounds like the reason a lot of people like the Brainstorm is because you get to put stuff on top of your library to hide it from discard, but when I tried out Impulse, I often liked being able to get stuff away from the top of the library. (too many lands, Edict at the wrong time...)

And Timetwister.  I saw it mentioned once or twice in the last couple of pages, but then only as a footnote to sideboard discussion.  Zherbus, I *think* I read on one of these pages that you guys tried it out and didn't like it.  What's the problem with it?  I cut it awhile back and haven't really missed it, but the lack of recurssion really scares me these days. (If this was already discussed, does anyone remember what page?  I just skimmed everything and couldn't find it.)

Impulse doesnt get rid of dead draws or protect cards from discard. Impulse also has potential to pull multiple things you need, thats bad in a non-redundant deck.

As for twister, it was only good half the time against about half the matchups. It was piss poor against Combo, Sligh, and Zoo.

[Fishhead]

Quote Anyway, What makes Brainstorm so much better than Impulse?  

Each one has their advantages and disadvantages.  Like many things Keeper-related theres a lot of personal evangelism, which probably clouds the issue more than clarifies it.    

Anyway, Impulse and Brainstorm do very much perform the same primary function, which is to give you a quick, cheap burst of sifting power.  I see two things going on here:

First, the demise of Green (oh, how long I have waited for it has allowed Keeper players more room to experiment.  Impulse Keeper players long ago removed Green from their builds to wedge in 3xImpulse; now all Green-less Keeper players are in the same situation of having new slots to fill.  You really dont need to play more broken cards, you want to play cards that increase your consistency; hence the mini-Tutors of Impulse and Brainstorm are back on peoples minds.  

Second, the arrival of the Fetchies brings 4 new shuffle effects into the deck.  Running 2xWish adds two more, depending on what you cut to fit them in.  Brainstorm is inferior to Impulse unless you can shuffle (or unless you expect to face MonoB all day and need to hide cards), so I think people are hopeful that these 6 new shuffle effects will make the difference.  I'm so-so on the theory myself, but time will tell.

-edit-
As Dante points out below, Wish doesnt shuffle.  For a second I got swept away in the "the Wish is a Tutor!" movement.  My bad.  

[Dante]

Quote (Fishhead @ Nov. 22 2002,00:24)Second, the arrival of the Fetchies brings 4 new shuffle effects into the deck.  Running 2xWish adds two more, depending on what you cut to fit them in.  Brainstorm is inferior to Impulse unless you can shuffle (or unless you expect to face MonoB all day and need to hide cards), so I think people are hopeful that these 6 new shuffle effects will make the difference.  I'm so-so on the theory myself, but time will tell.

Unless I'm missing some errata, Cunning Wish doesn't make you shuffle your library (as you don't look through it):

Instant
Choose an instant card you own from outside the game, reveal that card, and put it into your hand. Remove Cunning Wish from the game.


Dante

[rozetta]

On the point of recursion and timetwister, I just wanted to throw something out there and see what people think.

Reminisce 2U
Sorcery U
Target player shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library.

A sorcery feldon's cane which doesn't remove itself from the game.

I know this is in many ways sub-optimal compared to timetwister. However, as far a recursion is concerned, its a timetwister which doesn't refill your opponent's hand (thus allowing you to keep your own hand's card quality while offering a recursion mechanism).

It would have obviously been better as a cantrip or instant, since as it stands, it's card disadvantage (when compared to regrowth, blessing, will).

My thinking was more to do with the idea of using keeper builds containing brainstorms. You shuffle this back into your library with brainstorm + tutor/fetch until needed, thus it's not as bad to accidentally draw one early game. If you do end up discarding it, it can always be played off will (since presumably you'll not have regrowth due to the cutting of green).

I haven't tried it, but it caught my attention due to it's half-twister effect. Put it this way, if you lose your morphlings/other win conditions early enough (due to discard, for instance) and aren't in a position to will them out, this could be a potential lifesaver. Plus I've had many occasions where I pitched away my first morphling to a FoW early game and the other one ended up getting drawn really late in the game, causing me to almost deck out (I'm sure this sounds familiar).

As a bonus over the cane, it's somewhat useful versus decks which rely on the graveyard, since it can be targetted. Of course, in most cases, crypt is better, but that's purely sideboard material and doesn't even appear in many keeper sideboards.

With brainstorms and fetch lands, the number of cards you'll burn through in a game (especially versus control) is substantially higher than before.

While this would be obviously better with regrowth, allowing infinite recursion, keeper only maybe needs to get cards back once per game.

Anyway, thoughts?

[FeverDog]

I would sooner play Thran Foundry in my Keeper, at least i can use it's ability as an instant and its colorless mana.

If, for some reason, your Morphlings get Hymned away in the fist few turns, you always have YawgWill. That should be enough. If not, you can always Stroke them to death.

[rozetta]

True, I forgot about Thran Foundry (had a 3 year break from the game and that was one of those cards I skipped).

After all, it seems reminisce would make little more than a decent card to pitch to FoW  I keep forgetting that WotC don't make viable type 1 cards anymore.

[Freddie]

@Schmakt:

Right now I am giving a keeper deck heavily resembiling Zherbus's deck a try.

I am constistantly longing for impulse in the deck, but I figure, that I need to at least try out the newer version, to at least KNOW for sure if I like it or not... and not just assume.

That being said, last night, I played in a Mox Pearl tournament, and went 2-0 sweeps through the tourney with a combo keeper deck, running 4 Impulse.
-------

I think that as far as Timetwister is concerned, it is AT BEST a SB card vs discard, and maybe control (as a way to equilize cards in hand after you fall victim to a mind twist, or to try and find a wasteland for their LOA, after you have used to many waste/ strip, or after your opponent has ancestralled and you wanna stop that sh*t right there, and equilize your hands.

PS, I'll post my combo keeper deckslist in the regulat vintage forum, as it is not an essay!

-Freddie

[Dozer]

Since I am running Burning Wish instead of the second Cunning Wish, I am comtemplating to put Timetwister SB. (I don't have one, but at least I can test it.) It certainly sound like a good idea, because it's never going to be a dead draw. If I want it, I can get it, if not, I'll get something else.

Dozer

[Brislove]

umm you forgot about TF it's a cane that cost 1 to activate and still removes itself from the game. they just aren't needed.

[-CF-]

Tran Foundry has an advantage over Feldon's Cane: It's target player. Can, in a pinch, annoy decks relying on the graveyard.

Nothing I'd play though.

--
Chris