Article -- Vampiric Tutor or No?

[Maxx Matt]

I expose my opinions:

Since i play with Keeper, i build it with my Restricted Copy of Vampiric Tutor... i usually read ( during the past BD times... ) about cutting V.T. and sustitute it with other good and playable cards, but i ALWAYS find it essential and too important to play a tournament without it.

now, about 2 weeks ago,  i reassemble my Keeper as the Paragon did and the new configuration literally ANNULL the need of the V.T.

i find ANSWERS with

merchant
mystical
double cunning wish
demonic
double brainstorm

i thin my deck with Fetchlands, rearrange my hand with brainstorms, choose broken drawers with mystical and merchant and  usually "knock my opponet down" with the other bullets of the deck

i don't know if i could immagine a more QUALITATIVE and QUICK search for Answers or Bullets for this deck.

i played a big tournament ( 51 players..) last week, with the Paragon build to test it in a fully powered and Real Life metagame... i choose not to add my usual 61 card to the deck... i not add Vamp at all, nor in the maindeck or in the sideboard... I DON'T FEEL HIS LACK at all!!!!

so summarizing my thughts:

    i can argue that if i play  traditional keeper or Stone Keeper i would ALWAYS use V.T. in my deck

    if i choose to go the Paragon Way i can rely my foil V.T. to my collection and leave it at home  

 
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Maxx Matt
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[Nevyn]

I will make one final observation here since it admitedly is not my strong suit, and my main objection was the comparison to mystical:

We have heard from several experienced keeper players who between them have played hundreds of games with keeper using vampiric tutor. Those players have tried going without tutor and said that it is better.

We have heard from several other experienced players who claim that they would never cut vampiric.

What we have not heard from, as near as I can remember, is people who tried following suit and cutting vampiric for any substantial period of time and have GONE BACK and put it back in.  This could lead to the conclusion that maybe players only think they need it.

Also, with respect to the player who suggested that a vampiric in hand is as good a saviour for a mediocre hand as a brainstorm, I must say that that is rarely true. If you keep the vamp hand then you need to hope they cant answer what you look for or you are dead (which is why, as Rakso said, the tutors are worst versus control, which can potentially answer any card you look for).

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Nevyn @ Dec. 18 2002,10:07)What we have not heard from, as near as I can remember, is people who tried following suit and cutting vampiric for any substantial period of time and have GONE BACK and put it back in.  This could lead to the conclusion that maybe players only think they need it.

Also, with respect to the player who suggested that a vampiric in hand is as good a saviour for a mediocre hand as a brainstorm, I must say that that is rarely true. If you keep the vamp hand then you need to hope they cant answer what you look for or you are dead (which is why, as Rakso said, the tutors are worst versus control, which can potentially answer any card you look for).

I played without Vamp IRL for about a month or so.  I didn't put it back in until a couple ago.

No, it's not as good a savior as Brainstorm, but Vamp-Ancestral also gives you more cards overall.

It's not as good against control, but hey, I thought the whole point is that Keeper is metagaming against aggro?

Anyway, if Brainstorm is so good, why not run it over Mystical too?

[Saucemaster]

Quote (Rakso @ Dec. 18 2002,02:18)

Quote (Saucemaster @ Dec. 17 2002,16:06)if you've cut Vamp, you're necessarily implying that either: A) the disadvantages listed above outweigh Vamp's advantage; or B) you would not play multiple Mysticals anymore in Keeper (i.e., another Mirage tutor is no longer necessary/desirable in Keeper).

Okay, I honestly felt that article was comprehensive enough to have answered the points being raised here.

First, a Mirage tutor doesn't necessarily fetch anything useful in every matchup, taking into consideration that you have to sacrifice two cards to get that one card of your choice.

This makes the fact that Mystical is blue crucial. You can pay two-for-one to Force of Will instead.

Second, Vamp being able to get ANYTHING isn't that big an improvement over Mystical's selection. That leaves you with:

Shaman, not useful in every matchup and only in specific situations in the matchups where it's gold

Morphling, usually when you're ready to win

The Abyss, which requires significant mana development before you commit to this and you can fetch Balance (or SBed Pyroclasm) against weenie aggro as well

Strips, which is rare for a 2-for-1 play

Black Lotus and other mana sources, only when you're unbelievably mana screwed


So, no, it doesn't matter a lot that Vampiric fetches any card.

Rakso, I think your article did address these points, and well; I was simply trying to restate the argument in a concise form, as a few people seemed to be wondering why there was any comparison being made to Mystical.  I'm nowhere near experienced enough with Keeper to feel justified weighing in on whether or not Vampiric should be cut.  Like I said, I think that both arguments (Vamp's disadvantages over Mystical outweighs its advantage, and "we don't need another Mirage Tutor effect anymore") are there to be made.  I just wanted to be clear on what arguments needed to be made.  You seem to be making the "disadvantages outweigh the advantages" argument currently, and Zherbus seems to have implied earlier that he feels that another Mirage tutor is unnecessary in the deck now.  I certainly value the opinions of those more experienced with the deck than I am, and personally, at least, I'm taking both into consideration.  

I *do* think that going off on a "Brainstorm vs. Vampiric" tangent would be a bit of a red herring, however, as the two perform different functions in the deck.  Mystical and Vamp can be productively compared, but Brainstorm vs. Vamp is an apples/oranges scenario.

Anyway, like Nevyn, I'm not experienced enough with the deck to really weigh in on this issue further, but I'll continue to read with interest.  Thanks to all for a lively and well-thought-out debate!

[Zherbus]

Quote No, it's not as good a savior as Brainstorm, but Vamp-Ancestral also gives you more cards overall.

Overall? Vamp-Ancestral gives you 2 cards. I'd rather Brainstorm, find something good now (by looking at the top 3, and possibly drawing Ancestral or something else you would hope to get with the Ancestral cards), and topdeck Ancestral later.

[Dante]

Quote (Nevyn @ Dec. 18 2002,12:07)What we have not heard from, as near as I can remember, is people who tried following suit and cutting vampiric for any substantial period of time and have GONE BACK and put it back in.  This could lead to the conclusion that maybe players only think they need it.

I did well with it.  I cut it and have done well with it (1 tournament and lots of playtesting).  I'm thinking about earmarking a card and seeing if VT is better than that card.

Dante

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Zherbus @ Dec. 18 2002,11:50)Overall? Vamp-Ancestral gives you 2 cards. I'd rather Brainstorm, find something good now (by looking at the top 3, and possibly drawing Ancestral or something else you would hope to get with the Ancestral cards), and topdeck Ancestral later.

What I'm saying is if it's necessary you can use Vamp as a smoother like that.  However, most of the time it's not that.  It can also fetch game-enders, while Brainstorm is still smoothing things over.  It's versatile.

You can topdeck Ancestral later if you Brainstorm now, but you can just as easily topdeck the "crap" you dumped from Brainstorm.

[CrazyCarl]

Quote You can topdeck Ancestral later if you Brainstorm now, but you can just as easily topdeck the "crap" you dumped from Brainstorm.

This is why fetchlands are really good in Keeper, and why they make Brainstorm soooooooooooooo good.  I mean, sure, sometimes you will draw Brainstorm and need to get something NOW, but you at least have the chance of getting something right away as opposed to Vamp which will not only make you wait a turn, but at that point, you may not have the 2 life to play around with to GET the card you need.

[Rico Suave]

On the other hand, fetchlands also thin the library just as much as they do with Vamp.  

Whatever, I'll just drop it.  I just think Vamp is better.

[Rakso]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Dec. 18 2002,11:19)I played without Vamp IRL for about a month or so.  I didn't put it back in until a couple ago.

No, it's not as good a savior as Brainstorm, but Vamp-Ancestral also gives you more cards overall.

It's not as good against control, but hey, I thought the whole point is that Keeper is metagaming against aggro?

The article mentioned that Vampiric for Ancestral isn't as good as it used to be against control with the prevalence of Misdirection in every blue-based control and aggro-control archtype.

The article also mentioned that Vampiric can't do squat against Stacker and TnT unless you maindeck the Grim Monolith / Power Artifact combo.

[Rakso]

Quote (Saucemaster @ Dec. 18 2002,11:19)You seem to be making the "disadvantages outweigh the advantages" argument currently, and Zherbus seems to have implied earlier that he feels that another Mirage tutor is unnecessary in the deck now.  I certainly value the opinions of those more experienced with the deck than I am, and personally, at least, I'm taking both into consideration.  

I *do* think that going off on a "Brainstorm vs. Vampiric" tangent would be a bit of a red herring, however, as the two perform different functions in the deck.  Mystical and Vamp can be productively compared, but Brainstorm vs. Vamp is an apples/oranges scenario.

1. I'm saying that there are matchups where Vampiric is inherently great, so-so, or bad. If you take a look at the stronger decks and tabulate, you'll come to a conclusion.

2. Brainstorm or Cunning Wish would both be interesting substitutes for a classic tutor slot. While Brainstorm isn't strictly a tutor, it's still a utility spell that sets up your hand.

In any case, it doesn't matter what the function is. If, say, another maindeck Swords works better than a Vampiric that isn't pulling its weight anymore, you don't care if they're apples and lettuce.