Ugw Control Gro

[FeverDog]

When i started playing Gro a while back, i formed a very definitive idea of what i thought a Gro deck should be. The original Extended version was a great aggro-control deck, and thats what i always saw the deck as. Because of my view on Gro, i have gotten into many pointless arguments with players who preferred Chapin Gro over more traditional builds(including mine). The reason for this is that i had yet to make an important realization; the two decks are fundamentally different. First, for reference, i will post one example of each deck.

//NAME: Gro
        4 Powder Keg
        1 Ancestral Recall
        1 Time Walk
        4 Sleight of Hand
        4 Opt
        4 Brainstorm
        4 Gush
        1 Foil
        3 Misdirection
        4 Force of Will
        4 Counterspell
        4 Werebear
        4 Quirion Dryad
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Emerald
        1 Mox Sapphire
        4 Flooded Strand
        4 Tropical Island
        7 Island
SB:  3 Naturalize
SB:  2 Hydroblast
SB:  4 Gilded Drake
SB:  3 Legacy's Allure
SB:  3 Back to Basics

This is my version of Gro. I wont get into specifics because this thread isnt about that.


//NAME: Ecstasy.dec
       4 Tundra
       1 Windswept Heath
       4 Flooded Strand
       1 Island
       4 Tropical Island
       1 Mox Emerald
       1 Mox Sapphire
       1 Mox Pearl
       1 Library of Alexandria
       1 Sol Ring
       1 Black Lotus
       4 Brainstorm
       4 Sleight of Hand
       2 Cunning Wish
       2 Merchant Scroll
       1 Foil
       4 Misdirection
       4 Force of Will
       4 Gush
       1 Time Walk
       1 Ancestral Recall
       1 Regrowth
       2 Swords to Plowshares
       3 Ophidian
       3 Quirion Dryad
       4 Meddling Mage
SB:  1 Allay
SB:  2 Back to Basics
SB:  3 Gilded Drake
SB:  1 Abeyance
SB:  1 Divert
SB:  2 Hydroblast
SB:  1 Psionic Blast
SB:  2 Naturalize
SB:  2 Swords to Plowshares

This is CF's deck from the Online Invitational. I chose this decklist because it is one of the best examples of Control Gro.


Now, although both these decks run a lot of the same cards, they are very different. Its less about individual card choices and much more about play style. One deck tries to drop a quick threat and then protect it with counters. The latter CAN go that route, but it tries to play a control game, drawing a lot of cards and countering stuff until its ready to kill you.

I used to think Ophidians were terrible in this deck, and they are... if you are playing aggro. This deck is not really an aggro deck, it may look like one on paper, but in reality it isnt. Its much closer to URPhid than to regular Gro in playstyle. My opinion is that if you are running Phids then you are no longer an aggro deck, theres nothing wrong with the Phids themselves, you just have to realize you are playing a different deck. Both versions have their own strenghts and weaknesses, and either one can be a good choice depending on personal preference and metagame considerations. I also think that control versions should be running white, because power and versatility are more important than reliability in a control deck. You may disagree, but thats my opinion. I think most versions with Phids are running white already and i know for a fact that Chapin has added white to his list.

Another thing is the name, im tired of having to ask people which version of Gro they mean when im discussing it with them. I know we use Chapin Gro, but a lot of players(including myself) dont like that name. Because of this, from now on, i am referring to Control Gro as PhidGro. Personally, i always regarded Chapin Gro as "Ug Phid" anyway, because it plays a lot like that.

The question i want to pose is this: If we look at PhidGro as a Phid deck that kills with Dryad, then cant we find a better kill card? Hear me out on this. Morphling doesnt really work in my opinion because of the low number of lands, and because of the presence of Gush in the deck. What does that leave us with? Mystic Enforcer. If your plan isnt quick beatdown, then isnt Enforcer a much better finisher than Dryad? He flies, dodges Abyss, has very good power/toughness, and doesnt tie up your mana like Superman. I totally disagree with running him in traditional Gro, but i think he may really fit the bill here. Once cast, he should end the game in 3 turns, which is very fast, faster than a Dryad even. I understand that choosing Enforcer over Dryad means you cant opt for the quick beatdown route, but from what i understand the deck rarely wants to do that. How often does this deck really want to cast a Dryad on turn 2?

I will not give a decklist because it would be too similar to CF and i dont want it to detract from my main point. Im interested to know what you guys think about this, especially some of the PhidGro players. Thank you.

[leviat]

I agree with your statement on Ophidians, and I personally feel that they just don't fit correctly into a Aggro-ish deck. I've already discussed my reasons in the Miracle Whip thread that I started in the other forum.

The part that I disagree with you on is the premise behind PhidGro (FKA ChapinGrow). I believe that the premise of the Ophidians were designed as a come-back mechanism. While I have not played against Chapin, I know people who have (CrazyCarl) and he doesn't play it controllish. He drops the Dryad and pumps it up as fast as he can. That's why every counterspell he runs can be cast using alternative methods. Every mana is to be used to pump the Dryad and smackdown with it.

I think the dividing line is more like...

Aggro (Gro with pitch counters and 1cc search)
Control (Gro with solid counters and 2cc search)

Aggro Gro is all about dropping threats and using "free" counters to back that threat up. You then go nuts with stuff like Brainstorm, Sleight of Hand, and Gush to turn your 1/1 into a 5/5 really quickly. Your mana curve must stay low (thus Morphling is not an a good option).

Control Gro can be summed up with Emerald Alice. You drop a Dryad or a Morphling once the way is clear and just start beating down. You have more mana and access to strong counters. When all out aggro becomes a problem for you, you bring in the Oath combo to take care of it.

I think splashing white boils down to a simple matter of personal preference more than anything else. Some people like it, some people don't. I started with Chapin's Grow and frustrated when I had to scoop to Moat or Abyss. Then I splashed white for utility but decided that it made the mana base to fragile. When the Onslaught saclands came out, I tried it again and found the manabase to be a lot more solid. I didn't want to give up the aggro nature however and thus Miracle Whip was born.

What I tried to do with Whip was leave all the controllish elements in the sideboard while still keeping a solid deck so that I can go nuts on the first game, and if that doesn't work, bring in all the controllish stuff.

So anyways, getting back to my point. I don't think it's the Ophidians that change Gro from Aggro to Control. I think it's more about the pitch/soft counters (FoW, MisD, Foil, Daze), because the access to these ALLOWS you to be an aggro deck (drop the creature and go nuts with it).

[FeverDog]

I have to disagree here. Pointing to the way Chapin plays the deck will not prove anything to me, as i seriously question his version anyway. Running Phids instead of Werebears definetly signals a shift towards control in my book because it really limits the number of beatdown creatures you have.

As for the counters, i dont see it quite that way either. Although the deck definetly wants free counters, i dont think it should be at the expense of quality. I find that i often have the mana open to cast Counterspell and its only a problem if im casting a creature or Keg on turn 2.

But anyway, all this wasnt really the point of my post. I dont want to get into an argument over which version is better, that has been discussed to death in my view. What i want to know is what people think of running Mystic Enforcer as the finisher over Dryad. I know its a radical idea not to include Dryads, but i think its worth exploring. Lets try to keep the discussion focused on that, explain whichever card you believe is the best.

[Freddie]

Why do most grow decks not run Compost?

I think that Mono Black can be a really tough matchup, and having a low mana count can seal the game if they draw a lot of early hand and land destruction.

Any opinions on this matchup?

-Freddie