Paragon Keeper II

[PsychoCid]

Thing is, Keeper often can't win with any card of its choice, anymore.  Decks have evolved to where they are far less likely to burn out and stall than they once were, and it's not as easy to sit behind a Moat and Disrupting Scepter backed by a couple counters than it used to be.

Drawing a Monolith when you need a Wasteland for an LoA or other dangerous land can potentially be fatal.
Drawing a Power Artifact when you needed to drop that Morphling to start the clock or create a wall is the more likely of the switches to end up being fatal.

[rozetta]

In the last tournament I played in, I killed with Morpling maybe twice, and with the combo at least 6 times. I had just picked up those 2 cards (grim monolith and power artifact) and wanted to give them a try out of interest. I have to say that I'm going to test it a little more, since those are pretty interesting results..

Oh, btw, you can always lose the combo in the graveyard and play it off yawgwin, which is normally the best way to do it. That way, you use the stroke/geyser as normal and get it back for the instant win if needed. Let's face it, how many people stroke or geyser during a yawgwin turn anyways?

[Big Blue]

Quote

                  Drawing a Monolith when you need a Wasteland for an LoA or other dangerous land can
                  potentially be fatal.
                  Drawing a Power Artifact when you needed to drop that Morphling to start the clock or create a
                  wall is the more likely of the switches to end up being fatal.

*sigh*

And drawing a Morphling when you need to WIN NOW is fatal, and drawing a Wasteland when you don't need it does not help. I don't think this kind of arguments lead to some constructive analysis...

IMO 1 Strip+2 Waste is sufficient LoA-hate, but if you REALLY fear it you can still play 1 Strip+3 Waste, even WITH G/PA in the deck. After all, pre-paragon Keeper decks sometimes had 5 Strip/Wastes...

Before this thread "exploded" I was just trying to point out that if some aggro decks present a problem for you (as some posts of Paragon Keeper players seemed to indicate to me), then you should consider the combo (or maybe even Trinity,as Azhrei suggested - but probably that is too big a change). If you don't have any troubles, well, why fix something which is not broken?

[Fishhead]

Zherbus says:

Quote Actually, both of us have recommended it to players on occasions where they have stated having problems with aggro. Neither one of us ever said anything about believing in it.

Az is quoted in this thread as saying "I tried it for a while and my deck just fell to shit," which makes it clear he doesnt believe in the combo.  And somehow I interpreted your support for the combo as being a rather backhanded, "Well, if you can't win against aggro you might try it.  Personally, I don't suck and therefore don't need it, but feel free."  But, looking back, I think I was reading too much into your messages and attributing attitude that other people were projecting to you.  Sorry about that, chief.  

PsychoCid says:

Quote This was also for a specific metagame, not just in general, which is what the majority of you all (supporters of the combo, and the lesser known Keeper players in general) seem to fail to take into account.

I dont think you have thought this through properly.  The European metagame has shifted all around during the last 6 months and Combo Keeper is still T8'ing.  You cant seriously look at the results over time and claim that its not a "general' metagame.

As a matter of fact, Dulmen is 80 players every month and it includes some of the most interesting and innovative players around.  I dont know who you are thinking is "lesser known" but the Germans are winning huge tournaments with Combo Keeper, how can you not respect that achievement?  Perhaps because you dont "know" who Carsten Kotter, Hero t'Mannetje or Gerhard Markus are?  Perhaps they are somehow "not optimal" since they are not Americans?  Or perhaps nothing is "optimal" unless it comes directly from the mouth of the Paragons?  What a load of crap.  

Rozetta says:

Quote In the last tournament I played in, I killed with Morpling maybe twice, and with the combo at least 6 times.

You know what makes me happy in this discussion?  Reports, like the one above, from people who have obviously played with the Combo and have a relevant experience to share.  Not people who claim that "gRIm MonOLitH is aZZ cUz it coSt0rZ 4 2 UnTap0rZ".  

[PsychoCid]

How often, when you draw a Morphling, do you wish it was a Power Artifact?

How often, when you draw a Wasteland, do you wish it was a 2 for 3 accelerator?

Note that I said WISH--I wasn't asking for when it would be merely okay.

If you're winning so much more often with a 3 card combo in a deck not design to find those cards quickly, are you really playing with the optimal deck for your environment?  That's all.\n\n

[Pyromaniac]

Cid: I've played with the combo for 4-5 months now, and I feel a lot more confident in my deck. The 2-3(still thinking about the optimal number) Brainstorms combined with fetchlands have made finding it a lot less annoying. Also, I still run 3 Wastelands and 2 Morphlings, next to the combo.

And yes, I also still play Vampiric, even though everybody seems to tell me to drop it. But if all you ever face is either control(where it gets LoA) or mono black, as is our metagame at tournaments, you're friggin glad whenever you see it in your hand. Hell, I even play a janky card in my sideboard: Enlightened Tutor, which can be fetched with Cunning Wish(for finding the missing combo piece) or sided in as the 2nd CoP:Black/Red etc.

If people really like the combo and post good results with it, then let them. I understand that this is the extreme vintage forum, where the best of the best reside, but it's not like 1 deck is always the best variation, take into account metagames and personal preference as well.

I've had enough times where I drew PA vs mono black that I already had Grim out and turned an unwinnable game into a win cause of cheesiness, but hey, it's still winning. Drawing Merchant Scroll or something else wouldn't have helped me out then.

My .02 Euro

[PsychoCid]

Isn't that what I've said a couple times, though not in direct speech?  Metagame.  I even pointed back to Az and Zherb's comments about it.

Also, most of the decks (including yours) that choose to run the combo without basing their deck around it are somehow additionally modified, not simply -2 important cards +2 mediocre ones, so it WILL find the combo with a bit more ease.

Quote
Really, ComboKeeper should not be discussed as optimal in a standard Keeper thread.

It really is quite different.
...and it's partially my own fault for going on about it when others did.  My bad.\n\n

[Saucemaster]

Quote How often, when you draw a Wasteland, do you wish it was a 2 for 3 accelerator?

To answer with a quote from Big Blue:

Quote Morphling, Abyss, Geysir, Stroke, Mindtwist, YawgWin, Cunning Wish+something, hard-cast FoW and Mis-D, occassionally infinite mana drain sink (yes, it can happen)

To which I'd add, almost every time you face a mono-colored deck, unless they're threatening (or have actually played) LoA.

Quote How often, when you draw a Morphling, do you wish it was a Power Artifact?

This, to me, seems like a reasonable objection.  I'll just note, though, that most of the decklists I've seen running G/PA cut something *besides* the 2nd Morphling to fit it in.   What you cut will probably largely depend on your metagame.

Quote Isn't that what I've said a couple times, though not in direct speech?  Metagame.  I even pointed back to Az and Zherb's comments about it.

Well, re-reading what you've posted, I, for one, get the impression that you're saying something more like "if you're in an aggro-heavy environment and you can't play for shit against aggro and for some unknown reason you don't want to play combo".  Is what you're saying really just that G/PA *is* actually good in some metas, but not most?  Because I think most everyone here would be willing to admit that there are some metagames in which G/PA is less than optimal, and some have indicated that they think there are a few metagames in which it's quite optimal.  If all we're debating is in WHICH metagame-types the G/PA combo might be effective, then by all means let's actually debate that.

[rozetta]

Admittedly this is also controversial, but I run Future Sight in the lifegain slot and dropping this card on the table normally allows me to assemble the combo after I untap. In this respect, finding those 3 cards one way or another isn't too difficult. I'll try and get some statistics on that if possible.

I suppose the build I've been playing with might be likened more to "combo control" which would equate to: easy wins versus combo, easier wins versus aggro, probably lose game one versus dedicated control. However, it's more control than combo (as opposed to, for instance, mono-blue trix, etc.) There's the bonus, of course, that the combo is not the exclusive win condition.

The nice thing being that I can still side in REBs, etc. for games 2 and 3 versus mono-blue, etc. (which are anyways difficult game 1's versus almost any keeper build). I also run 2 CoP:Red in side, since the removal of the zorb means I need something to help versus sligh games 2 and 3 (but the combo is pretty easy to pull off due to little disruption on sligh's part). I'm running 1 strip, 3 wastelands.

As far as the how often do I draw a morphling and wish it was PA, and how often do I draw a wasteland and wish it was the monolith, it really does depend on the situation. I play against a lot of mono-coloured decks here for one, so seeing a wasteland isn't so important to me on the whole. I think I'm not the only person who often has to pitch an early-game drawn morphling to a FoW. I might have less enthusiasm about pitching the PA in the same situation, because it's an easy win condition.

I have to agree on the statement that a win with G/PA is instantaneous, and has saved my arse on a few occasions where I didn't have the luxury of spending some 4 turns winning. This especially goes versus a deck like sligh, where game 2 and 3 you might really not want to wait for them to topdeck a POP + flaring pain + REB backup. Quite a few aggro decks can keep the pressure on in the late game even after you've taken some control, since it's not as easy to just lock decks out nowadays due to their smarter builds.

[jpmeyer]

Up the quality, boys.  I'm really close to closing this thread.

[Azhrei]

This thread is for the continued discussion of the Paragon Keeper build. It is not a place to debate whether or not Keeper is a viable deck, nor it is the place to start posting other decklists. The "combo" discussion is borderline already as it belongs in a different topic altogether as is, and there is no need to pull things futher off base with completely off topic or unsubstantiated remarks. JP may be close to closing the thread, but I am close to issuing warnings.

-- Azhrei

[CrazyCarl]

Sorry about that.  I'll ask a relavent question then.

In what sort of environment do you feel that the combo is needed to be able to win?  Would you still be able to win if you were just playing a normal Paragon Version(which it seems most are, only with a change of around 2-5 cards)?

[Fishhead]

Quote In what sort of environment do you feel that the combo is needed to be able to win?

Hopefully I'm staying relevant here also; I'm not sure exactly what kind of bad behavior Az is trying to proscribe.

Anyway, even though I love the Combo to death, I dont think that its needed in any environment at all.  Which is kind of the flip side of the question you are asking - "Could you still win with straight Paragon Keeper?"  Absolutely, like I said a while back, I've played both and think both are very viable.

I do think the Combo increases my Aggro matchup by a measurable percentage.  Holding to my "one game in four rounds" figure thats a game out of every ten or so - though the math gets messy because I mostly get that free game against Aggro, but sometimes against something else.  (I can think of one game against MonoU I won after time was called just because I could win on my Big Turn - I didnt have the turns left to take 4 swings with Morphling.)  

Environment-wise, I'd only consider dropping the Combo if I was going to face at least 50% control (or semi-control decks with Mis-D, like Gro).  

I figure that I win the Combo matchup the same way I always (try to) win it, by gaining control, there is no way to race.  Its nice to be able to "go off" in one turn against Combo, you dont have to worry about them drawing the Timetwister and the Duress to force it through while you are swinging 4 times with Morphling.  Aggro, I know I am better against with the Combo.  And that leaves Control.  The Control matchup is about gaining control of the game, not so much about what your exact kill card is.  And I like playing aggressively, so the Monolith and Friends fits my playstyle.  

Thats my take on it.

[Meridian]

Power artifact/grim monolith in keeper is FUCKING TERRIBLE. Its not just bad, its totally and completely awful. There isn't any other way to put it.

What does it do for you? NOTHING. How does it help you against aggro? it DOESN'T. you aren't playing a combo deck. The adage that "combo beats aggro" usually holds true only because combo decks usually win CONSISTENTLY a turn or two earlier than an aggro deck can win. when you throw 2 combo pieces in to a deck that isn't built to accomodate it, you accomplish basically nothing. just because you have a "combo" in your deck doesn't mean you are suddenly better at beating aggro.

to win with that combo you have to have 3 cards in a deck that isn't even running all of the tutors. and to have that help against aggro you have to have all 3 of those cards before aggro can beat you. decks that are totally devoted to doing just that sometimes can't pull it off, much less a control deck geared towards the long game

if you have a hard time beating aggro, throwing in some jank combo is not whats going to help you. if you have a problem with aggro, do what keeper has always done and add another maindeck aggro hate card. run another fucking swords or a keg or something. and learn to play the deck, I hear that helps

[Dozer]

I feel this is a good point to chime in, although it is only partially related to Paragon Keeper.

Quote just because you have a "combo" in your deck doesn't mean you are suddenly better at beating aggro.

There are environments where the combo makes a Keeper better at winning against Aggro. Remember where the combo comes Wrom: UFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDM NNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQH YUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPW IGY
OKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFM YXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZ OWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOT QNQ
EMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJ GDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAO BUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJM VRE
SKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZC MHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMH
The pressing need for the combo has diminished, but the fact remains that the combo gets you out of Situations you'd otherwise not have survived.

(Most of the arguments have been discussed in the Power Artifact Thread already: http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....;t=1379)

Quote to win with that combo you have to have 3 cards in a deck that isn't even running all of the tutors.

As far as I see it, it is generally accepted that with the combo, Vampiric Tutor is necessary. Then you have all Tutors except for Wordly and Enlightened Tutor, which is plenty. Plus, Stroke and Geyser are in the deck anyway.

All that being said, Paragon Keeper has IMO no place for the combo. The reason is that a) Vampric Tutor had to go back in, and b) the built-in consistency could be hindered by the combo. That is because of Brainstorm. If you hold Power Artifact and you play Brainstorm, the PA is most likely to get put back on top of your library (if you hold no other combo pieces). Then you use a fetchland, and PA is gone for good. You now need to spend another searcher once another combo part shows up to dig up PA again.
Non-Brainstorm Keepers just have to hold it until they need to pitch it or can ply the combo. They have no way to get rid of it again if it sits dead in hand, but if they had said way, they'd do it - and then it becomes too cumbersome to re-compile the combo then.

I hope this was clear enough, if not, I'll try to make it clearer.

Dozer

[Dozer]

Quote (Dozer @ Jan. 20 2003,05:46)Remember where the combo comes Wrom: UFPEGAUTFJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDM NNSKVFVWRKJVZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQH YUCDDJBLVLMHAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPW IGY


OKSTTZRCLBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFM YXOEAIJJPHSCRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZ OWCONEUQZAAFXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOT QNQ


EMSFDULHPQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJ GDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTWFAO BUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUTFJM VRE


SKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVWRKJVZC MHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLMH

WTF??? I can't edit that part of the original post, so here I give you the short version of what I wanted to write:

Remember where the combo comes Wrom: LEJGDGVCJVTLBXFGGMEPYOQKEDOTW FAOBUZXUWLSZLKBRNVWWCUFPEGAUT FJMVRESKPNKMBIPBARHDMNNSKVFVW RKJ

VZCMHVIBGDADRZFSQHYUCDDJBLVLM HAALPTCXLYRWTQTIPWIGYOKSTTZRC LBDXRQBGJSNBOHMKHJYFMYXOEAIJJ PHS

CRTNHGSWZIDREXCAXZOWCONEUQZAA FXISHJEXXIMQZUIVOTQNQEMSFDULH PQQWOYIYZUNNYCGPKYLEJ

(Sorry, but the forum software appearently did not want me to write this first try.)

Dozer

/EDIT: I feel like a victim of a conspiracy!!! The forum did this the second time, too!!! I'll try to edit the first post later again, sorry.

[rozetta]

I just wanted to throw out an angle that some people might not have necessarily thought about when playing in an aggro-heavy metagame. Other decks tend to run more creature removal than normal, thus possibly making your morphling more susceptible to edicts, etc than in a more balanced metagame. This can be especially inconvenient if you are facing decks running an inordinate amount of discard.

Imagine this scenario:

You've fought through the first few turns of a game versus suicide, stabilizing the game. In the process you've had to pitch your first morphling to FoW or it's somehow been discarded. You have a few cards in hand, but no counter magic. You haven't drawn or cast Will yet. You draw your second morphling and have 6 mana on the table. You're playing in an aggro-heavy metagame and there's a good chance your opponent runs maindeck edicts.

Think about the possibilities there. Do you play the morphling now hoping for no edict or wait until you have counter backup? If you do, he might edict it away. If you don't it might get hymned. If you wait for counter backup, your opponent might duress, then edict. Etc. etc.

I believe that in this situation, the combo might actually help to a certain extent:

- you can probably play the monolith as soon as you've drawn it without worrying too much about losing it. In fact you may have already done so. If it got duressed away, you can play it off will.
- if you draw the power artifact first, and it is duressed away, you have access to it via yawgwill, so no worries
- as already mentioned, the 2 draw X cards are standard in most keeper builds anyways, and will help you regardless of whether you have the combo or not
- you can sit under the combo even without having the kill card, since it just makes colourless mana "free"
- with all 3 components in the graveyard, it costs 2UUU or 2UUUU (depending on geyser or stroke) to win, which is essentially, at most, 1 mana more than casting a morphling.

So, you can play either a morphling or the combo from your graveyard under will. In the case of the morphling, you must keep your last win condition alive for 4 turns, which means willing it back when you have enough counters to protect it (i.e. enough mana to cast draw spells to refill your hand, also). This is still difficult versus suicide considering if they are a good player they will keep discard spells until they are ready to try something, and they could just as easily also topdeck will or necro to put an end to your game anyways.

I know this is probably not a scenario that occurs in every metagame, but I can imagine it might show up in places. Additionally, decks like knives, PTfunk, etc. pose similar problems, and those can show up in less powered more aggro metagames. Parfait could pose similar problems in trying to find a convenient time to play a morphling and protect it for 4 turns. I'm sure there are other examples.

I hope this is not "bad quality" posting, since I'm just trying to illustrate that, in some cases, a metagame could be such that the choices for cards in relatively standard decks might be quite different and prefer the use of a non-creature, faster win condition.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

@Meridian, I don't know you, so don't take this personal, I'm not trying to flame you. Your post pretty much says that everybody who plays with GrimPower has to be a total moron for not realizing how bad it is. If what you said where true, all of us german players seem to have no more brain than a bug and are not capable of playing our decks correctly or spot total junk when a sign points at it.  

Having said this, on to the actual argument:

----------------
Magic strategy comments:

By your post I can only judge you either have never played Keeper including the combo or you played it wrong.

The combo is not played because the Triangle (Combo beats Aggro), but because good aggro-decks tend to have the ability to sometimes recover/break your control. I personally can beat aggro with or without the combo most of the time, but the combo wins me a game about once or twice a tourney I would have lost next turn otherwise. It might have cost me five games in all tourneys I played since I added it (I cut Fire/Ice), which is is less than it won me.

The combo makes Keeper not a different deck, it just gives you one more option you have to think of while viewing your hand, permanents and graveyard. It does not play like combo, it's still keeper.

A keeper should include Vamp. Tutor imo. It is not a bad card per se (none of the Paragons said that, they said they just didn't need it any longer) and there is a really good argument for playing it in a deck containing Grim Power.
 
End of Magic strategy
------------------
 
I think Azhrei is right and this is the wrong thread for this discussion (as Paragon-Keeper doesn't include the combo), whoever wants to say something more should post a new thread in Vintage. Or maybe the posts regarding the combo should be moved there, as there have been some pretty good arguments against and in favor of Grim Power in this thread.

I just felt the need to respond to Meridian in a place where it would definitly be seen in context with the rest of this discussion, otherwise I'd have opened that thread myself.

/edit: I wrote this before rozettas last post was online. There is nothing in mine that is reflectory of that post.

[Zherbus]

There comes a point in a topics life where it stops bearing the fruits of usefulness. This has reached that point a long time ago. Closed.