Rector-Tendrils

[Rico Suave]

The point of this thread is to discuss the optimal Rector-Tendrils deck, and different approaches in going about trying to beat the metagame.  

Before I get into the discussion, it would help to have a decklist, so here is my personal build:

Rector-Tendrils

Engine Cards (10)
4 Academy Rector
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Future Sight
1 Necropotence
1 Timetwister
1 Frantic Search
1 Mind's Desire

Disruption (8)
4 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy

Utility (11)
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Brainstorm
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Time Walk
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Balance

Kill (2)
2 Tendrils of Agony
      
Mana (29)
2 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Tolarian Academy
4 Dark Ritual
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

SB:
1 Island
3 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Seal of Cleansing
2 Plaguebearer
3 Defense Grid
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 The Abyss

The Mana

It is my opinion that 29 mana is the best amount.  Some people prefer 28, but I would not recommend going any lower than that amount.

15 lands, 5 fetchlands.  It's incredible how smooth this works out.  The 15 lands are necessary, and 14 is going to screw over a significant number of games.  16 land causes the deck to become much slower, and it can't effectively go off when it draws too much land off Bargain.

The 5 fetchlands are amazing.  The turn's worth of protection they give against Wastelands is all the deck needs sometimes, and the fact that they thin the deck of excess land is another good boon when you want to draw business spells.  Lastly they act as a shuffling mechanic for Brainstorm.  Anything less than 5 will hinder one of the above aspects, while going above 5 will start to cause a good amount of damage that inhibits Bargain, as well as thinning out too many cards and being unable to recover from several Wastelands.

The 4 Dark Rituals are a must, as they help to power out fast Rectors, they fuel explosive Mind's Desires, they are excellent when trying to hardcast Bargain, and they are incredible when trying to go off and being tight on mana.

Lotus Petal is also an explosive piece of mana.  It's a miniature Dark Ritual in effect, but able to produce any color.  Mox Diamond is also explosive, but unfortunately this deck likes to play it's lands.  The drawback of the Diamond is too rough, so the Lotus Petal gets the nod.

Disruption

Cabal Therapy has revolutionized the concept of Rector decks.  It has been stated before several times, but it basically is the crux of the deck in combination with Rector.  Being able to strip away a key spell from your opponent's hand in addition to being a means of killing Rector is what has pushed this deck over the edge.  4 Therapy are absolutely necessary.

Force of Will is a key spell missing from this build.  I love Force to death, but it just won't fit in the deck.  Any build that runs Force of Will suffers from one of two problems, either it can't find blue cards to pitch for Force when necessary, or it is unable to find enough bombs to force through.  The only way to go about remedying that is by cutting Duress, but it is unwise when Duress has much more synergy with the deck overall, not to mention it doesn't require pitching another card in hand to use.

Kill

2 Tendrils show up often enough.  3 shows up more often, but 4 would do more often than that.  The problem is that they're dead and you don't want to see them until you're going to win.  For that purpose, 2 is enough.

Many people have recommended running 1 Tendrils and 1 Words of Worship, so that it would be possible to draw out one's entire deck with Bargain.  However, this deck is able to go off without ever seeing a Rector or a Bargain, and so Tendrils supports all routes to victory as opposed to one.  The arguement concerning going off with Bargain and finding a combo piece with Rector is solved by simply fetching Future Sight.  

Utility

Most cards in the category need no explanation, however some do.

Brainstorm is simply amazing.  Never go beneath 4.  I won't mention the obvious benefits of it, but there are many subtler nuances of it such as when to cast it, and it's those little things that make it a 4-of slot.

Balance is the other card some people don't like.  I won't go over exactly how it works since it's very dependent on the circumstances.  It's sort of a catch-all card that covers multiple aspects this deck may not otherwise be able to cover.  I will say though that aggro decks would be much more of a concern to me if Balance was not in my deck.  Lastly it acts like a form of Rector kill if there are no Therapies and no opposing creatures.  

Engine Cards

Some people don't run Necropotence because they never Rector for it, others cut it because it is hard to win against aggro, or because it's dead when you're going off.  Well, Necro is the kind of card that single-handedly wins games when it resolves.  You may not Rector for it much, but that's because you get Bargain instead and go on to win.  It's dead when going off, but that's acceptable because you're going to win.  The only point against Necro that makes sense is aggro, but you have a SB.  I think SB'ing out Necro every once in a while is worth it to make control player's concede on the spot.  

Timetwister is the only draw-7 in the deck, but it's a great draw even without other draw-7's to keep the cycle going.  It provides you with lots of resources, and this deck loves resources.  Timetwister has the added bonus of being a recursion card as well, so it can get you out of sticky situations you might find yourself in.  Additionally, it recurses your opponent's graveyard which can be a bonus if you see Coffin Purge, Squee, Anger, or other graveyard jobbers.  

That brings us to another point.  Because of hate cards which can completely shut the Rector part down, many people (including myself at one time) promote several draw-7's so that it provides an alternate path to victory aside from Rector-Bargain.  That is an excellent choice, but the deck as of right now prefers other cards which fill the same role of an alternate route to victory, but they are not as unreliable.  If you feel that draw-7's are the way to go, I would like you to explain to me what cards you would cut so as to best fit in several draw-7's.  As of right now, I prefer the cards currently in the build.

Future Sight is an odd choice, but it serves two main functions.  Firstly, it is a Rector target so that you can do things with your second Rector if you are struggling in going off.  Secondly, you can hard-cast it if you properly set up for it.  Obviously fetching 2 Scrublands in a row will not let you cast it, but it's not uncommon to get 3 land and some artifact mana on the board to cast it.  A resolved Future Sight is just like it is in the Shining, if you start the turn with Future Sight in play, you will win barring horrible draws or other unfortunate circumstances.  And yes, it works without Fastbond because not only do you thin your deck of lands, but you have plenty of ways to shuffle or otherwise change the top card of your deck.  

Frantic Search is a remnant from the draw-7 philosophy.  It allows you to keep going when you have mana problems, especially when untapping Academy.  It works especially well with draw-7's, but that doesn't mean it doesn't work well without them either.  It is restricted because of combo, I might add.

Mind's Desire is utterly broken.  It can be difficult to set up properly, especially if you are playing a wise opponent, but even then if you take the effort to make it work it gives you the game when no other card could.  The simple fact that is in your deck can cause you to bluff it and get your opponent to counter meaningless Dark Rituals and other set-up cards.  Bluffing is incredible, especially when your opponent generally has very minimal time to make up for any mistakes they might make because of it.  

The Sideboard

Blue Elemental Blasts deal with Blood Moon and Pyrostatic Pillar.  When boarded in against Stax, they can nail Goblin Welders if you are afraid of them recursing Sphere of Resistance.  Otherwise, I find I don't need them against things such as sligh.

Mask can be a headache because it can explode and put you in uncomfortable situations.  A combination of Seal of Cleansing and Plaguebearers will help to alleviate this.

Hurkyl's Recall is there specifically for Stax, or other decks that have the ability to play Sphere of Resistance and other scary artifacts.

The Abyss is a useful weapon for eliminating things such as Meddling Mage, Withered Wretch, Rootwater Thief, and other problematic creatures.  Additionally, it kills Rector.  If nothing else, it's a useful stalling card against suicide, Fish, and Madness whereas the Necro it replaces would be rather weak.

Defense Grid is boarded in mostly against Tog decks.  It not only stops counters, but stops Coffin Purge as well.  

Conclusion

I feel that this build gets around hate cards very well, not only by having the proper tools in the SB but by possessing proactive bombs which ignore a lot of hate.  This build could be adjusted even moreso to deal with hate by adding utility such as maindeck Chains of Vapor to remove troublesome cards.  My point is that the deck is not dead, and it can metagame back just as much as it has been metagamed against.

The purpose of this post is to find an optimal version of Tendrils.  Personally I believe this version is the best version.  If you disagree, prove me wrong.

EDIT-Although if you are interested in trying out Force of Will, here is a decklist for you, courtesy of Westredale:

//NAME: Bitches, please
// Disruption
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
3 Force of Will
// Storm
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Mind's Desire
// Broken
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Necropotence
4 Academy Rector
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Balance
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
// Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
// Other
4 Dark Ritual
4 Brainstorm
1 Timetwister
1 Frantic Search
1 Windfall
// Mana
4 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
3 Scrubland
4 Underground Sea
2 Gemstone Mine
// Artifacts
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Diamond
1 Mana Crypt
1 Lotus Petal
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Vault

// SideBoard
3 Coffin Purge
3 Seal of Cleansing
3 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Abeyance
1 Ivory Mask
1 Words of Worship
1 Island

Just for comparison.\n\n

[Zherbus]

Moved.

[Rogue]

I play a version of the deck that has 2 differences. +1 windfall, time spiral, -1 land, future sight. I liked future sight when I played it, but it usually just helped to stretch out my life total with bargain(i.e. just allowing me to not pay life to draw 0cc cards). Time spiral has saved my life in conjunction with minds desire, and has provided another bomb. Granted, it is only ever -really- good with academy.
1 words of worship-I think that is a terrible idea. I hate to even see them in the board. I have used them and they never won me a game that wasn't allready over.
I think defense grid is the best board tech I have seen yet. It will stop those coffin purges long enough to let you go off(assuming you wait to play therapy and rector in the same turn, probably turn 3).
What are the worst matchups you have had so far? Have you been able to overcome the 3 coffin purge tech?

[Fever]

I agree that you cant run FoW effectively in a Tendrils deck. I find it ironic however, that you onces told me it was necessary in order to stop cards like Blood Moon and Stifle from ruining your day. Anyway, im just glad you came to the same conclusion as i did.

Overall the decklist is very close to what i would say is optimal. My only question is Future Sight, how often do you find yourself fetching it instead of Bargain? Presumeably its in there for those times when your life is too low to abuse Bargain, but how often has this been an issue in your testing?

[VideoGameBoy]

I'd like to take some time to discuss a few card selections, and touch on some sideboard tech.  This is a recent quote of mine from the Unreg forum:

Quote Future Sight and Words of Worship both have their strong points, and as I said to Rico, what is funny about them is that they are maindecked depending on your meta - Words of Worship versus aggro/burn, and Future Sight versus disruption/control - but otherwise they are left out of the maindeck in an optimal build.  It looks like you (made a metagame decision) and maindecked Form of the Dragon to combat a Suicide/Aggro meta, and it looks like it was an excellent call, especially what with several of your matchups.

I do not know if I can espouse Future Sight maindeck in an optimal build, but the main points I would like to address are that it presents a fetch with additional Rectors, extends your life with Bargain, and has a lot of synergy with the Storm theme in general.  Future Sight is very powerful in this deck, and combined with 4 x Brainstorm, Mystical Tutor, and even Necropotence (as well as numerous other cards) is capable of monstrous card advantage and Storm ramping feats.  I think a lot of naysaying against this card in Rector decks stem from the fact that it would be undeniably dead in RectorTrix, but there are several critical differences in the two decks in terms of piloting method and kill that makes FS playable in Rectal Agony.  What also follows from the way Rectal Agony operates is that Words of Worship necessitates a sideboard slot in an optimal build, at least until a better option comes along to combat AnkhSligh and other budget aggro/burn decks.  Rectal Agony loses a lot of strength against aggro that Trix has due to the inability to simply rip into or fetch 20 life on command, and Words of Worship eases that gap.

The build you present could possibly benefit from sideboarded Enlightened Tutor.  The reasoning is that you board numerous enchantments and artifacts that necessitate tutorability.

The sideboard Plaguebearer is kind of iffy - to knock off a Dreadnaught requires a hefty mana investment of 3BB; Dominate might be more prudent in that slot since it only costs 2UU, is an Insant (and thus more tutorable with Mystical in conjunction with the other tutors), and hands control of the Dreadnaught over to you without presenting a Naturalize target like Control Magic (other than the Dreadnaught itself).  Admittedly, Plaguebearer may get the nod due to the abundance of Ritual mana, but the fact remains that the slot is to combat Mask, and Dominate is more tutorable.

cssamerican came up with an excellent idea - why not combine RectorTrix and Rectal Agony; Rectal Agony getting the nod in the maindeck configuration due to the greater speed and versatility, and RectorTrix sideboarded to combat Stax/Hulk?

The sideboard would appear thus:

3 x Illusions
2 x Donate
4 x Force of Will (depends on whether already maindecked)
1 x Intuition
1 x Rushing River/Chain of Vapor
4 x Open meta slots

The reason Trix fares better against Stax is because only 2 cards need to resolve (Illusions and Donate), instead of 9-10 in one turn, and bringing in Trix versus Hulk can take advantage of mis-sideboarding, since game 1 is already in Tendril's favor.  Trix also makes better use of Force of Will due to the higher blue count.

Meddling Mage is the last card I would like to present, and I will sum it up with a quote from my thread (linked in my sig below):

Quote Mage causes so many decks to go straight to their scoop phase and is so synergistic with the deck that it actually serves very well main.  Here are some of the more obvious benefits:

1) Added Therapy fodder.
2) Let's you go off at your leisure in the mirror.
3) Never dead with minimal scouting.
4) Virtual card advantage.
5) Chump fodder.
6) Win condition.

I also see Westredale has come up with Ivory Mask as sideboard tech, presumably to combat the mirror, Trix, Sligh, and various other combo decks - but I am dubious about it's effectiveness.

[bebe]

That's actually pretty funny. Before Tendrils was legal i advocated to Rico to use a Tendril substitution in the side for the Rector/Trix deck. We had a few e-mails on this.
Shortly after that Tendril/Agony was presented by VGB ( who has done a bang-up job). I loved the way I was able to substitute in. Of course, playing Trix it never occured to me that perhaps the other way around was better - lots of aggro here about.
I think that sideboarding in Trix is quite good in certain metas.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Rogue @ Aug. 06 2003,01:00)What are the worst matchups you have had so far? Have you been able to overcome the 3 coffin purge tech?

3 Coffin Purge isn't really a problem anymore.  Between Defense Grid and the ability to go off without the graveyard (via Bargain, Desire, Necro, and Future Sight), 3 Coffin Purge seems pretty mediocre hate nowadays.

The worst match-up with this build is Stax.  Sphere of Resistance hurts.  Maindeck Chains of Vapor help to alleviate this, but of course it's a metagame decision.  Force of Will is actually the best weapon, but as you can see it's really hard to fit it in without removing really good cards.

Quote I agree that you cant run FoW effectively in a Tendrils deck. I find it ironic however, that you onces told me it was necessary in order to stop cards like Blood Moon and Stifle from ruining your day. Anyway, im just glad you came to the same conclusion as i did.

Overall the decklist is very close to what i would say is optimal. My only question is Future Sight, how often do you find yourself fetching it instead of Bargain? Presumeably its in there for those times when your life is too low to abuse Bargain, but how often has this been an issue in your testing?

Force of Will is necessary to some extent.  I'm not happy with the builds that don't run Force, but on the other hand I'm not happy with any build that does run it.  Basically the reason to play Force is to get around junk like Sphere of Resistance, Pyrostatic Pillar, and other similar junk.  Well, Rector Trix does that very well naturally and it has Force.  I think the choice between Rector Trix and Rector Tendrils boils down to the amount of Stax you expect.  

Although people have tried playing Rector Tendrils with a Trix transformational SB, as VGB proposed.  But once again it takes away from too many other matches and only improves the Stax match.  I'd rather play a deck that destroys the rest of the field and has one bad match than be able to beat Stax but lose to the rest of the field.  Of course that is once again a narrow metagame decision.

I don't really Rector for Future Sight so much.  The possibility is there, but as far as Rectoring goes it's only back-up for low life, Extract, or some other circumstance when Bargain is not possible.  Future Sight is mostly there to hard-cast and go off with.  It's like a 2nd Necro, it wins games from a different angle.

Quote
The sideboard Plaguebearer is kind of iffy - to knock off a Dreadnaught requires a hefty mana investment of 3BB

To be fair, it only requires 2 mana the first time, then 3 at another time.  Dominate requires 4 (UU, no less) mana all at once.  And Rituals are a factor as well.

Dominate may be more tutorable (1 more card), but Plaguebearer has other uses:

It is Duress-proof.  It also eliminates troublesome utility creatures such as Meddling Mage and Withered Wretch, both of which see use in Mask builds.  It can even stall them out of a FEB-style kill by killing mana creatures, whereas Dominate cannot touch Shapeshifter nor Phage.  

Both will likely solve the problem more than well enough though.

Oh, and thanks for moving it Zherbus.

[Radagast]

I've already mentioned this in a few other threads. Wouldn't Unmask be a suitable replacement for Force of Will? It's obviously not as good, but certainly much better than nothing at all.

[David Hernandez]

Just FYI,

Jimmy Liu played a variant at Frank and Sons on Aug. 2nd that went of on turn 2 several times.  He had 1 Tendril's, 2 Illusions, and 2 Donates in the main.

Force of Will, Cabal Therapy, Duress, Bargain, Necro, etc. were all present.

it looked like standard Rector Trix, but -1 Illusions, +1 Tendrils.  It was very consistent.

dave.

[Rico Suave]

Radagast:

This deck really depends on the die roll.  It usually wins if it goes first, because it can discard their threats before they play them and go on to win.  Force isn't really that necessary there.  

However, the deck really struggles going second, because discard isn't as effective.  Unmask doesn't stop their first turn Sphere, Null Rod, or Pyrostatic Pillar, yet Force does.  

Basically, being able to win a lot more while going second is the reason to use Force.  Extra disruption isn't necessary.

David:

Strictly speaking about win conditions, Trix is so much better than Tendrils because it's blue and it doesn't get reamed by things like Pyrostatic Pillar and Sphere of Resistance.

However, the deck needs about 5 Trix slots to win, whereas it only need 2 Tendrils slots to win.  That opens up 3 slots with which to add more of whatever, be it search, disruption, mana, card-draw, or whatever.  That is much more advantageous than having a better win condition.

However, I don't see how replacing 1 Illusions with a lone Tendrils improves anything.

[David Hernandez]

Like i said, it was just FYI.  

However, his deck seemed consistent and every match he won he did so with that lone Tendrils.  Anyway, as this thread was about Rector-Tendrils i thought you'd be interested, especially since Jimmy went off on turn 2 twice against me and in a few other matches that day.

dave

[MoreFling]

FYI: Rector is too clunky, and too easily hated.

What is keeping you from dumping rector + therapy and running fows + draw-7's?

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote What is keeping you from dumping rector + therapy and running fows + draw-7's?

As in U/B Tendrils or U/B Trix?  I would rather play Hulk if I wanted to play combo/control.  I play Tendrils because it is still one of the fastest and best pure combo decks.  Eventually the hate will die down a bit as people get less panicked about Storm combo, and the decks will again thrive.

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Eventually the hate will die down a bit as people get less panicked about Storm combo, and the decks will again thrive

This doesn't make sense to me.  First, since coffin purge is good against a number of decks right now (Tendrils, Hulk, Madness, Mask/FEB, Stax), even if people do focus less on Tendrils, they will probably keep them in the boards because they're generally useful.  Second, saying that the deck will thrive again after people adjust, probably just means that they will adjust again and bring in hate again if Tendrils has a resurgence.  It says nothing about the long term playability of the deck.

[David Hernandez]

you know what else hurts the combo is Stifle.  I dont mean trying to Stifle the Tendril's, because if they're casting it then you have probably already lost.  I'm talking about Stifling the Rector's ability, or Stifling a Fetch Land.

it's very strong that way.

Dave.

[VideoGameBoy]

Quote Second, saying that the deck will thrive again after people adjust, probably just means that they will adjust again and bring in hate again if Tendrils has a resurgence.  It says nothing about the long term playability of the deck.

Although Tendrils is still relatively new archetype, peoples' fears about the decks have abated to some extent, since it only seems to clinch the odd T8 spot in sporadic tournies.  What will happen eventually is that sideboards will revert to packing metagame hate versus decks that are actual problem matchups, rather than just loaded with clunky bullets to combat some bogeyman lurking just outside of view - which is what Tendrils combo was regarded as; a threat much bigger than it actually was.

As hard as it is to operate the deck in such a hate-filled environment, it is nonetheless a testament to the power of the deck that people are still loading their sideboards with anti Storm and Rector tech.  It is also telling that Rector and Tendrils can still win in such an environment, because it still wins either via Rector/Bargain/Tendrils or Draw Seven/Tendrils, and often does this in the first few turns before that hate even has a chance to come to bear.

Coffin Purge may have it's *very* limited uses versus those scant decks you mention, Grand Inquisitor, but you are kidding yourself if you regard it as something other than pure Rector hate.  If I see a sideboard with Coffin Purge in it, then I know that person is afraid of Rector, period.

I would put the "long-term playability" of the deck in this lone term - "B&R list".

[Grand Inquisitor]

Quote Coffin Purge may have it's *very* limited uses versus those scant decks you mention, Grand Inquisitor, but you are kidding yourself if you regard it as something other than pure Rector hate.  If I see a sideboard with Coffin Purge in it, then I know that person is afraid of Rector, period.

I would put the "long-term playability" of the deck in this lone term - "B&R list".

those 'scant' decks that i mentioned have been filling up the T8's in the major tournaments in my area.  perhaps this is a metagame issue.

you're right that coffin purge is the graveyard hate of choice against rector based decks, what i was saying is that most people pack graveyard hate regardless of whether tendrils is the best deck out there, or simply one of many good decks.

it is also true, that due to its speed, it can avoid much of the hate coming its way, but that is not a winning game plan.  cards that completely hose tendrils (pyrostatic pillar, sphere of resistance, stifle, coffin purge, meddling mage, and general disruption) are showing up in increasing numbers.

its not that tendrils is not a viable deck.  the problem is that, like stax, it is incredibly easy to hate.  of course, the deck is still in its infancy, and a more optimal build may solve some of these problems.  however, i can't see the need to restrict any of its components right now, as results from Gencon, Duelman, and TMD2 have shown it to be competitive, but not abusive.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (Grand Inquisitor @ Aug. 11 2003,15:33)cards that completely hose tendrils (pyrostatic pillar, sphere of resistance, stifle, coffin purge, meddling mage, and general disruption) are showing up in increasing numbers.

That's the thing.  Imagine the deck I listed in the first post with a transformational SB into Rector-Trix.  It gets around every single card you listed.  

Pyrostatic Pillar/Sphere are nothing when you only need 2 cards to win (and Illusions doesn't get hit by Pillar anyway).  

Stifle is weak.  It doesn't stick around in the hand long enough to hit Rectors, and even then the deck can go off without Rector.  It's useful for mana-denial, but only against fetchlands which are oftentimes popped first turn anyway.

Coffin Purge is beatable by Defense Grid or simply going off without Rector.

Meddling Mage is dealt with via Balance, Rushing River, Force, or Therapy.  Or depending on what they name, it can be dealt with by just going off.

Notice how I say going off a lot in there.  The deck is quite able to win without Rector---and it does it a lot in reality.  My point is that Rector hate only stops 4 cards in the deck, and they can be thrown back to Brainstorm anyway.  I will grant that most Rector players don't know what they're doing about it though.

@MoreFling,

What's keeping me from running Academy over Rector-anything is that Rector decks are tons more consistent, and they beat-up on control.

[MoreFling]

Quote (Rico Suave @ Aug. 12 2003,01:09)@MoreFling,

What's keeping me from running Academy over Rector-anything is that Rector decks are tons more consistent, and they beat-up on control.

huh? Where did I say anything about Academy? Rector is too slow, the engine we are using right now is a lot faster, more consistant, and generally better.

[David Hernandez]

Stifle shut down Rector-Tendrils on Saturday (played in a Fish deck).

It was not weak.

Mana Drain, Counter, Stifle.  Rootwater Thief (enchanted with Curiosity) pulling out the key cards...  

While you may not like it, dont let it bite you.

dave.

[Rico Suave]

Quote (MoreFling @ Aug. 12 2003,00:59)huh? Where did I say anything about Academy? Rector is too slow, the engine we are using right now is a lot faster, more consistant, and generally better.

If you take the Rectors out and replace them with draw-7's, you have Academy.  What else would it be?

Faster, yes.  More consistent, no.  Generally better, I have to disagree.

David, when you said Stifle hurt the combo you didn't mention the other cards there.  Stifle as a card against Rector Tendrils is weak.  Stifle when used with Rootwater Thief and no less than 8 other counters then makes things tougher, but it wasn't Stifle doing the dirty work.