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Author Topic: T1 in Norcal with Spevack & Co.  (Read 4077 times)
Fishhead
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« on: July 20, 2002, 04:27:52 am »

I've really enjoyed the upsurge of reports on this board as of late; its great to see what people are playing and what they are playing against.  So, heres my report on the Thursday T1 in Newark.  

I have been playing at Games of Berkeley lately on Fridays, but I knew I wouldnt be able to play there this week.  By chance I wandered an old haunt called C&J's Collectables; when I mentioned that I hadnt been by in a while because I was playing hardcore T1 elsewhere a couple people mentioned that "Well, we play T1 on Thursdays here."  Hmmm, well, since I cant make Berkeley maybe I'll drop by...

There were just over 20 people, with some serious decks floating around, including two Keepers and Spevacks Helm-Academy.  I was playing the Survival Tubbies deck that has been dominating the Dulmen tourneys, with a few minor mods.  I cut Uktabi Orangutan and Karn to fit in Genesis and Wonder.  (I'm not sure that these are optimum mods, Karn seemed redundant with the Monkey and Genesis seems great for staying power in Survival; Wonder was anti-Moat tech and it lets you race against decks with big defenders.)  

Round 1: Phoung.  Phoung is a strong player in pretty much every current format, but he doesnt play much T1.  He borrowed his friends T1 Highlander deck and I rolled him in two quick games before he could do much of anything.  (Yes, I got easier pairings than Spevack.)

Round 2: Super-Gro.  After playing Gro for a while, I felt one of its great weaknesses was its utter inability to deal with anything that slips past its counters.  

In the first game I get a Goblin Welder down turn 1, suggesting that there is no FoW in hand.  He plays a Meddling Mage naming Bolt (figuring that I am playing traditional Stacker) and shows me a hand of Meddling Mages, Misdirections and a Mystical Enforcer.  Coast is clear; I throw down Survival and go to town.  I kill his guys with Triskellion recursion before he gets threshhold and storm across for the win.

Game two is more of the same, though it takes longer because I try to work around his hand, which he again has to show me with Land Grant.  I wait too long trying to play around his threshhold gaining tricks and then have to spend greater effort killing large Enforcers and Werebears.  Still, he cant deal with recursing Triskellions and Survival providing an infinite stream of Juggernauts and Su-Chis.

Round 3: Keeper.  A nice deck, close to all black-bordered.  Pretty standard BD build with Fire/Ice.

The first game is a vicious back and forth with Wastelands.  I get a Juggy on the table first turn, but get my Workshop stripped.  He plays a Library, which I in turn Strip.  We exchange even more LD, he FoWs Su-Chi and then is able to Balance away the Juggy before it kills him.  That leaves us in topdeck mode though; he Ancestrals for answers or threats, but isnt able to find anything before I topdeck a large artifact creature and finish him.

The second game I get another quick Juggy.  He Dismantles it.  That leaves me an opening; I have Blood Moon, Monkey and ReB left in hand and he's out of enchantment removal.    I drop a Monkey with ReB backup.  He has nothing, and I chew up a Mox.  Next turn I drop Blood Moon with that same ReB ready to protect and serve.  He has slim hopes after the Moon, but after several points of Monkey damage I draw Su-Chi to put him on a faster clock.  Game.

We play a third for fun; he is able to FoW my first three plays, but my fourth is Survival which quickly wins.  He destroys me in the fourth game, he gets land+Sapphire and I have to walk into a Mana Drain with a Memory Jar.  He uses the mana to Stroke, then next turn DTs and does many bad things to me.

So 3-1 against Keeper; I notice that Keeper seems to win occassionally at Dulmen, but not as often as Survival-Tubbies.  I can see why this might not be a good matchup for Keeper.

Round 4: Tom, unpowered Trix.  Tom is a highly rated player, but he doesnt have the power.  Of course, I prefer my chances against bad players with power than against good players without, but oh well. Wink  And, as I mentioned in Spevacks thread, combo may be a bad matchup for Survival-Tubbies.

I get first turn Juggy, followed by second turn Juggy.  Its not fast enough to finish him before he gains 20, its still not fast enough to get him a second time before I cant pay the upkeep.   One interesting play is that on his do-or-die turn I have to decide whether to Memory Jar him.  "How close is he to the combo?", versus "whats in the next 7 cards?"  Turns out he has his 3rd Brainstorm and is able to protect the cards he needs.  

In the second game, I get a Juggy and he gets Ritual-Ritual-DT for Necro.  Thats really bad and I lose.  Wasteland almost keeps me in; it certainly makes him think for a long time.  But he finds the answer and wins.

Hard fought games, very nice.  We play two more and I win them; Tom thinks the matchup is difficult for him.  I'm not too fond of it from the other side of the table which probably gives a good idea of how tight it is.

Round 5: Suicide.  I'm not sure what happened in the pairings here, but I get a freebie against a very suspect Suicide deck while all decks I was afraid of get paired against each other.  He cant destroy my hand fast enough and my creatures are bigger and angrier than his.  At one point he Hymns me and my three cards are Squee, Wonder and Genesis.  Wink  Good times.

Anyway, I had a great time and got to play a lot of different decks.  I got to meet some people who I had seen on BD, I got to see some players I hadn't played T1 with in some time.

I'd also like to encourage people who are out there playing to write reports even if nothing particularly fabulous happened.  Building up the community by sharing our experiences is something constructive we can do to help the format.
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spevack
Guest
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2002, 04:32:43 am »

Great report!  We definitely need to play a few more games next time.

You had it about right -- in the first game, my hand was nuts and I just went off.  In the second, your Shaman ate all my artifacts, your wastelands ate all my land, and Blood Moon made me scoop right as the next round was starting.

You are a great player, and it was fun to meet you in person.

Hope to see you next week.
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Shaman
Guest
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2002, 05:22:30 am »

Nice report!

I am a fun of workshop deck.

Can you post your decklist?
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Shaman
Guest
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2002, 05:23:43 am »

ehm...fun = fan.
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2002, 03:21:46 pm »

> Can you post your decklist?

Sure.  There are a lot of similar decks winning at Dulmen, so if you can find that German link then you can check that out too.  I notice that they are metagamed against each other, so my first changes were to try and normalize them against a diverse field.

(9 Non-Creature spells)
4 Survival of the Fittest
R Regrowth
R Time Walk
R Ancestral Recall
R Tinker
R Memory Jar

(22 Creatures)
4 Goblin Welder
4 Juggernauts
4 Su-Chi
2 Masticore
2 Triskellions
2 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Thunderscape Battlemage
1 Genesis
1 Wonder

(8 Mana Artifacts)
7 SoLoMox
R Grim Monolith

(21 Land)
4 Tiaga
3 Tropical Island
4 City of Brass
R Library of Alexandria
4 Mishras Workshop
R Strip Mine
3 Wastelands
R Tolarian Academy

Random observations:

After playing the deck at Berkeley and now in Newark, I find myself taking out the Battlemage pretty much every game during SB'ing.  He is a RG solution to Enchantments with a nice alternate (B1) kicker, but I generally dont need him.  Again, if I was in a field with a lot of mirror-matches, I think he would be better.  

"Wonder" was some tech I wanted to try out after losing 3 straight at Berkeley to a strong player playing an Extended deck with 4 SpiritMongers, 4 Pernicious Deeds and 4 Wall of Roots.  Generally, he could drop a quick Wall and then a SpiritMonger, play defense for a bit and then start swinging.  I felt that I could outrace him if I didnt have to go head-to-head with his defenses -  hence Wonder to give my team flying.  I do only have 3 Islands in the deck, so it may not be optimum either.  It does double as anti-Moat tech, but I ended up siding it out against every deck except Keeper.
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LambChopNYC
Guest
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2002, 09:54:10 pm »

Type 1 in Newark?

I made it to a Type 1 in Fairlawn on Thursday, I think it was named Game Master. This was my first time there. I saw a post here giveing directions to get there here. I can take the 171 bus from the GWB bus Terminal there and back.

For those of us who don't know about this place in Newark, Can you tell us how to get there or at least mention the stor name and phone number?

Thanks

LambChopNYC
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Dr_Nuxvomica
Guest
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2002, 02:04:29 am »

Quote from: LambChopNYC+July 20 2002,19:54
Quote (LambChopNYC @ July 20 2002,19:54)Type 1 in Newark?

For those of us who don't know about this place in Newark, Can you tell us how to get there or at least mention the stor name and phone number?

Thanks

LambChopNYC
Well if your thinking Newark(N.J) then it`s a little farther than you thought..
I believe the shop in reference in Newark is C&J Collectables (although I`m only referencing another post earlier about a third place finish..)

I myself reside in the "Capital City" (Sacramento)and would
like to know if you guys know of other NorCal cities that have T1 tournaments (sanctioned or not) on a regular basis?
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2002, 05:16:45 am »

Quote from: Dr_Nuxvomica+July 21 2002,03:04
Quote (Dr_Nuxvomica @ July 21 2002,03:04)Well if your thinking Newark(N.J) then it`s a little farther than you thought..

[...]

I myself reside in the "Capital City" (Sacramento)and would
like to know if you guys know of other NorCal cities that have T1 tournaments (sanctioned or not) on a regular basis?
Yes indeedy.  The Norcal in the subject meant Northern California.  Sorry to get your hopes up.  Wink

As for other places to play, I thought Sacramento had one big card shop that hosted T1 monthly.  I kinda remember seeing it on this Wizards "Sanctioned Tournament Locator".  You might try that, although its quite possible that its gone out of business or something since I last checked.

Berkeley might be a little closer for you; its still a significant drive though.  Are you willing to drive into the Bay Area for T1?
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Shaman
Guest
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2002, 06:38:55 am »

It looks pretty solid. Instead, it seems to me that the addition of blue spells can create some problems with your mana base.
In the deck you played, were Ancestral,Walk & Tinker so necessary?
I mean, I think that the casting of Ancestral Recall in a t1 field with a lot of control is very situational in your case, since you do not have to protect it from random Misdirections.
Moreover, the 4 city of brass and the addition of Trops make you vulnerable to nonbasic hate, and do not allow you to feel at ease with a Blood Moon. Needless to say, this makes you weaker against Keeper players.
Another problem is LoA. Yes, you read well, LoA. How many times did you use the library? I run a monored stacker, but after a few playtesting I realised I never used it, so I moved towards the 4th wasteland. But maybe your deck is a different story, dunno on this point.
So, what about a G-R build w/o Blue? Here are my suggestions:


- 4 cities
+ 4 karplusan forest

- 3 trops
- LoA
+ wasteland
+ 3 forest

- Battlemage
- Ancestral
- Time Walk
- Tinker
+ 3 Gorilla Shaman
+ Karn (hey, it's a blocker and a possible first turn 4/4)

- Regrowth (you have Genesis)
+ Uktabi Orangutan



Tnx for reading my post


---Shaman---
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2002, 03:03:28 pm »

@Shaman:  Your ideas are solid; another deck that does well at Dulmen uses changes very similar to what you proposed.  I notice that it generally does slightly less well than the deck I based my version on though.  I suppose that the skill of the individual players could be a large part of any difference.

Anyway, the other deck runs the mana-base you suggested (other than cutting the Library) and maindecks two Blood Moons.  It also maindecks two Hull-Breach, but that must be the metagame.

So, on to discussing some of the individual cards you mentioned.  I've only played this particular deck for two weeks, so I am sure I havent achieved ultimate enlightenment yet, but this is how I feel about some of the things you mentioned.

Quote
Quote Moreover, the 4 city of brass and the addition of Trops make you vulnerable to nonbasic hate, and do not allow you to feel at ease with a Blood Moon. Needless to say, this makes you weaker against Keeper players.

My biggest worry about Blood Moon is that it shuts off my Survival because I lose my Green.  Still, its not much of a worry because I feel that when I play Blood Moon, I utterly destroy my opponent (while only damaging myself somewhat. Wink  I sided in Blood Moon in my matches against Keeper and Gro; I also sided it in against Trix although he may have too many basic lands for that to be a valid strategy.  In any case, I am not at all uncomfortable with Blood Moon; I was quite happy to see it game 2 against Keeper.

I think I would be much more worried about Blood Moon in a mirror match with the Tubbies version you suggested; though even with 3 Forests you cant be completely confident - if you dont draw one then your Survival doesnt work either.

Quote
Quote  In the deck you played, were Ancestral,Walk & Tinker so necessary?

Tinker was very very good on Thursday night, allowing me to get strong cards like Triskellion on the table quickly.  And Time Walk was the key to a couple spectacularly fast games that I won.  Ancestral is just Ancestral.  Wink  This isn't really any surprise though; obviously these are three very strong cards which definitely go in - if going to 3 colors doesnt reduce your consistency in some other way.

You mentioned non-basic hate as a problem with splashing Blue.  The main hate I see is Back to Basics, Price of Progress, Wasteland and my own Blood Moons.  Adding 3 Forests isnt going to save you from BtB or PoP, both are still very dangerous.  I dont really worry about Wasteland; if a Tropical Island gives its life instead of my Workshop I am generally happy with the tradeoff. Wink  

One thing that this brings up is that I never count on being able to cast my 3 blue cards since I only have 3 Tropicals.  (Similarly, I debate whether Wonder is good or not because he requires an Island).  But when I do cast the blue cards, they are quite good.  

Misdirection is the other danger you mentioned vs. Ancestral.  I dont fear Misdirection generally, Keeper has one Mis-D and I have one Ancestral.  I'll Ancestral early if I can, figuring that the odds are they dont have the Mis-D.  Decks like Gro that can pack up to 4 Misdirections are a different thing; I'm much more fearful there (although they often end up showing their hand with Land Grant at some point and you can suss out whether you can safely Ancestral or not.)  

Quote
Quote - Regrowth (you have Genesis)

I dont think I've Regrown a creature yet.  I remember Regrowing a Strip Mine and a Time Walk on Thursday.  So I dont think that Regrowth goes out if Genesis goes in, since I mostly want to get spells and lands with it.

OTOH, I did side out Regrowth in a couple matches, so I understand where you are coming from here.  Its not the strongest card in a deck that hopes to kill its opponent in 4-5 turns.  

Thanks for discussing the deck; I think its an interesting deck, definitely worthy of attention.  

Also, where are you playing, Shaman?  I notice that a lot of the other changes you suggested were anti-power (Karn, 3xShaman) or anti-artifact (Uktabi), which makes me curious about your metagame.
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Dr_Nuxvomica
Guest
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2002, 09:22:19 pm »

Quote from: Fishhead+July 21 2002,03:16
Quote (Fishhead @ July 21 2002,03:16)As for other places to play, I thought Sacramento had one big card shop that hosted T1 monthly.  I kinda remember seeing it on this Wizards "Sanctioned Tournament Locator".  You might try that, although its quite possible that its gone out of business or something since I last checked.

Berkeley might be a little closer for you; its still a significant drive though.  Are you willing to drive into the Bay Area for T1?
Yeah the shop is still there(Adventure`s in Comix and Games)
although I thought they only did T2 and Extended and was disappointed to see I missed there T1(last week).
 I was interested in the shop in Berkeley and I saw on the tournement locator a shop in Pleasanton.As I`m not a member of the DCI I might join knowing I could hit the store maybe once in awhile rather than try to make it to the monthly that I might not be able to make on the said day.
 
 Any info on other stores including "Bezerkly"-Games is the name?
 I guess I`m looking for more non-sanctioned(are there any) as I don`t hold alot of Power 9 and am more or less looking to play for the sake of fun/new experience rather than to increase my DCI ranking.

Thanks for your help.
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2002, 03:38:48 pm »

Quote
Quote >I was interested in the shop in Berkeley and I saw on the tournement locator a shop in Pleasanton.

I'm not aware of a current store in Pleasanton (KK's cards, where the infamous Casey McCarrell learned to play, is long gone, as is the store that bought it out.)  Whats the name of this one?

Anyway, Berkeley is "Games of Berkeley", its at 2151 Shattuck, a couple blocks south of University.  Gaming is on Fridays, down the staircase in the middle of the store, in the basement.   It starts maybe at 5pm and runs 'til just before 9.  Play continues at some local fast food restaurant afterwards.  

The Berkeley guys are friendly to proxies, so theres a fair amount of power floating around; some of it even real. Wink  I usually get there about 6, because the store is downtown and parking seems easiest right about then.  

Quote
Quote I am a fan of workshop deck.

Carls report on the latest Dulmen tournament (called something like "Best Ebony Charm ever!") mentions a match with a deck which is evolving along similar lines to mine.  Take a look at that as well.
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Dr_Nuxvomica
Guest
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2002, 03:50:16 pm »

The shop on the DCI locater said Pleasanton Sports Cards and that there are weekly T1`s on Sunday`s although not being from the bay it`s location is not known to me.

 Thanks for the info on Berkeley,maybe I`ll make it down one week.Sounds fun.
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Tyrius
Guest
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2002, 03:31:23 am »

Nice report. Your deck looks great, but I'm kinda curious as to what your sideboard was.
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2002, 04:34:45 am »

I expected to face lots of random Aggro early on, possibly Dragon and Control in the final rounds which determined how I tuned the sideboard.  I notice that the Germans play with Aura Mutations etc in the side; they expect lots of mirror matches.  Anyway:

4 ReB (I boarded these in for 3/5 matches)
2 Blood Moon (3/5 matches)
2 Emerald Charm (0 matches; no Dragon)
1 Tormods Crypt (0 matches; no Dragon, no Recursion)
4 Powder Keg (sided in 2 against Suicide)
2 Compost (sided in 2 against Suicide)

Random other note: I played a newer version without Genesis or Cities, but with Land Grants last night at FNM.  Went 8-4 combined against 2 different Keeper players; playing casual so we never sideboarded.  (I think that German Tubbies sideboard is better against Keeper than the reverse, so I would expect that to only get better in matches.)  

I missed Genesis in exactly one game; but was always wanting for Anger and Wonder.  Since Keeper/Control is the matchup I theoretically put Genesis in for, I'm beginning to think it doesnt do enough in the deck.

Land Grant is interesting; I had one hand in the last two days I had to throw back because it was a Land Grant instead of a CoB, but overall its been decent.  I have hardcast it several times; two to three mana can be sort of a dead spot in the mana-curve depending on your draw revealing your hand isnt as common as it can be in a lower land-count deck.
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Matt The Great
Guest
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2002, 12:32:15 pm »

If you need ghelp getting your islands for Wonder, would a single maindeck Wood Elves be tech?
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Fishhead
Guest
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2002, 03:07:12 pm »

Quote from: Matt The Great+July 28 2002,13:32
Quote (Matt The Great @ July 28 2002,13:32)If you need ghelp getting your islands for Wonder, would a single maindeck Wood Elves be tech?
Thats an interesting idea.  

One of the things I'm not quite sure about is how much help I really need getting Islands/Mountains for Wonder/Anger.  I'm not even sure that Land Grant has changed the balance that much.  (I suppose I could calculate the probabilities out.)

I think I've had more games where I've had Anger or Wonder in hand and couldnt resolve Survival or Masticore to throw them in the graveyard than I've had games where I had them in the grave but not the appropriate land to make them work.
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Nocturnal
Guest
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2002, 04:44:33 pm »

Since this is a heavily green deck, why not use Crop Rotation?  There are plenty of juicy targets to get with it (particularly using it as a fifth Workshop on turn 1).

With the incarnations, you can trade a City or the wrong dual for the right dual, with no loss of mana.

Because you can sac any land, you can nullify a Wasteland by leaving one G open, assuming you aren't losing Library or Academy.
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