Balls in Sligh

[dandan]

I play Sligh a lot. I have played Sligh for a number of years (I even used to have Brothers of Fire and Orcish Librarian in some builds, that's how long I've played Sligh). This is no way means I'm any good but trust me, I've pretty much played with every Sligh card.

Every new Sligh player uses Ball Lightnings or wonders why the netdeck they are using doesn't have them. More experienced players rarely use them (I'll leave the door open a little, there are some freaky metagames out there). Why? Surely 6 damage for three mana is perfect for Sligh.

Well, here is my opinion.

Ball Lightning is bad in Sligh because:

1. It costs too much.
This is very important. The casting cost of three means that if you draw 2 or more before turn 4 you have a clogged hand. The RRR part means that the 5 strips you should have in your deck will often stop you casting it turn 3 even if your opponent does nothing to disrupt your mana. Any mana disruption (strips, Sinkhole, Void, WOrb) pretty much stops you casting them.
2. The effect is not powerful enough
A 3cc spell in Sligh has to be a game winner because it will be cast on the turn that decides if Sligh will win or not. 6 damage to the dome might be worth it but a possible 6 to the dome isn't. Compare Ball to Wheel of Fortune for power levels.
3. It is not flexible.
Redundancy. Redundancy. Redundancy. Whatever you need you will draw it because you have so many copies in your deck you are certain to find something that will work. Lots of cheap creatures means a cheap early renewable source of damage is almost certain in Sligh. Direct damage can be used to remove blockers (because your dorks can't fight very well) or can burn out an opponent as they drop that Abyss, Moat, COP Red, etc. Balls are not at all flexible and are only useful as a 'finisher'. Balls can only be used to attack and attempt to do 6 to your opponent. Very narrow.
4. It is unreliable
Any creature removal will wipe out your third turn and quite possibly more (Think Fire/Ice). The widespread use of Fire/Ice and the return of Triskelion plus Masticore has made life tough for Balls. It was generally accepted theory back when early Sligh was a force that in the mirror match whoever cast the first Ball lost. The first Ball met some burn and its controller then met a full turn of hate while tapped out. The momentum never returned.
5. There are better cards for the job
If you think of a deck like Keeper there are so many good cards that would work fine in the deck it isn't funny. However it isn't even enough for a card to be good, it has to be better than every other card that hasn't made the cut. Quite simply Ball is worse than Price of Progress in the inflexible burn to the dome slot.
6. Mana Drain
Frankly if you plan on winning a tournament you are very likely to see this card. If you cast your Balls when facing UU untapped very very very bad things will happen to you.

I would appreciate your opinions and, as this is the newbies forum I hope we will have a little more leeway to discuss this. (Traditionally Ball Lightning posts end in locked threads and flames from more experienced players hitting their heads in frustration)

[Radjammin]

Two words =  Mana Drain.

Only 3 casting cost spell worth playing is the Wheel.

[dandan]

My point was that even if Mana Drain didn't exist Balls are still suboptimal in Sligh. Not complete s$%$$$t like Skullscorch but still not great.       

[BWM]

Eeuhm, aside from Mana Drains (which I'm lucky enough to have never seen IRL in my life)


Ball Lightning just doesn't do enough damage... during turn 3-4 I can mostly already burn out my opponent...


BTW, I still play 2 in my sligh-deck since they're blackbordered and it's fun to see a newbies staring at them while thinking "WOW"



Otoh, I play 0 strips due to great absence of non-basic lands here (aside from some painlands which I don't mind)

[Rebel428]

One of the greatest things to do in the first couple rounds of a tourney when all the scrubby decks are still around is to play a kickered Orim's Chant in response to a Ball Lightning.  They nearly start crying

BTW, nicely written dandan.  You only missed one thing:  Modern Sligh isn't pure aggro anymore; it's pretty much aggro-control/disruption now.  Against aggro, it uses burn to destroy creatures, allowing Sligh's own creatures to punch through.  Against control, Sligh tries to quickly drop a cheap threat under the counter wall,disrupt their mana with Gorilla Shaman, Wasteland, and Strip Mine, and keep the threat of burn present.  Ball Lightning doesn't help with any of these things.  If Sligh wanted to be pure aggro, it'd run Reckless Charge, Goblin Grenade, etc.

[Puschkin]

Nice post, DanDan! But I have to point out that, since this was specifically designed for the Newbie/Guest Forum, you can´t take some things for granted. For example referring to "5 strips" might be confusing. I know, it´s hard to not use this Magic lingo, but realize Type I lingo is an additional curiosity.

Vice versa, nobody here should be shy to ask questions, even if it is a small line like "what´s a mirror match".

I don´t think that this thread will get locked up  

[Anonymous]

Well...it's all about your metagame...i mean, if you KNOW that you are going to face keeper, you don't want to be running the balls...i've been hitting t1 tourneys recently, and i haven't seen keeper in over 3 monthes...my sligh deck is curently running 4 balls and 4 firecats. Gorilla shamans aren't even in my deck becuase the jewelry isn't even a threat in my area...not to say that if i went to a big tourney i'd run this deck, i'd probably go almost creatureless (put in browbeats over balls)

[dandan]

Rebel428 - Hey I'm Mr. 'Sligh is a control deck'!! I just wanted to keep it as simple as possible. Frankly most newer Sligh players start off at the aggro end of the Sligh spectrum. I think that aggro-Sligh, control-Sligh and combo-Sligh (Goblin Lackey, possibly Piledriver) are all possible and frankly I can't see Balls being great in any of them.

Puschkin - good point, I'll try to avoid jargon. Most people will have noticed that most of my posts tend to be pretty long so I try to cut down where possible.

[kiky]

yeah, i agree. Balls just cost to much nowadays. I'd never really see Balls for quite sometimes.
Other thing that i see really bad is flexibility. It good only in some cases (no instant burn spells, no m.drains, no moat etc).

[Anonymous]

I dunno about this.  I've seen Ball Lightning come through with many Sligh decks in my metagame.  It doesn't look all that bad to me.  It's a huge midgame breakthrough if you can get it off.  BTW, what is a better substitute?

[dandan]

The 'traditional' inflexible damage to the dome card in Sligh is Price of Progress. It costs less, is instant and can do as much if not more damage than Balls. It does depend on your metagame though.

Other 'replacement' cards
Ankh of Mishra (recently improved a lot as the new fetchlands now cost 5 damage under an Ankh), more dorks = Goblin Vandals if Powder Keg is a problem, Goblin Fanatic for aggro metagames, more burn (Flame Rift) or more control (Dwarven Miner).

[dandan]

To be fair, although it doesn't sound like a great deck, playing Ball Lightning as the first creature you summon is really asking for trouble. It will meet whatever creaturekill the opponent has been holding. As such I can see the logic in taking the Balls out of such as deck. What you have left is a SRB deck (Stupid Red Burn) which is never going to win you many friends but can beat a lot of decks that are unprepared it.

[Anonymous]

I do understand your points about Ball Lightning tho i think it depends very much on metagame and it CAN be a really good card in slight.
I wouldn play it vs other Sligh or any Controll deck   but it can be very cool vs other aggro if it doesnt use cores or trisks.

What about Blistering Firecat? Yes it costs even more than Ball Lightning  BUT u can play it face down and "activate" it when the opponent is outtapped ,  has no hand left or when u figured he doesnt use burn/creature removal/counter or used many of these cards alrdy.

[Anonymous]

dont have much time so i will try to put my 2 cents in...

i find that the balls are horrible in most metagames. vs. control you have drains.  vs. aggro you cant rely on the window of opportunity to cast the beast,  vs combo, well you die.  

being a sligh player and having quinton hoover as my favorite artist i was sad when i took ball lightning out of my sligh,  but on a better note i found that mishra's factories worked so much better.  uncounterable, potentialy pumped to a 6/6 if needed (IRL i only got them as big as a 3/3)  and serves as an other dork in an aggro match up or helps power the scroll.

im suprised that more people dont use the factories.

[Anonymous]

Ball Lighting is the last card in my and i never drop it at turn 3...when you have ball you must play smart....is a must counter when your opponent is low of life, you can use it as duress for your final blast or final burn....for example... when you play sligh you may have must counter in your deck not only small dork...
A ball Lighting turn 3 is a bad play, optimal for kids. Playing Sligh is not easy as you think....

Pro for the ball
1)is Duress Proof
2)is Misdrection Proof
3)6 damage with one card and one resource(blast deals 4 damage but use 2 mountain)
Slops
1) Need a smart player for play it.

[Anonymous]

here me out on this one, i have a few things to say about this... i am not sure if my quoting works, since i am copying/pasting from a different page



1. It costs too much.
This is very important. The casting cost of three means that if you draw 2 or more before turn 4 you have a clogged hand. The RRR part means that the 5 strips you should have in your deck will often stop you casting it turn 3 even if your opponent does nothing to disrupt your mana. Any mana disruption (strips, Sinkhole, Void, WOrb) pretty much stops you casting them.


so, your saying, in a mono color deck, it has problems getting mana of its own color? sure, you cant cast it with a waste/strip, but then again, why are you keeping a waste or a strip on the board as it is? you want to use these right when you get them, sligh needs all the disruption it can get.  granted, if sligh is facing a mono deck, waste arent that great, cept for the library or mishra or other random jank that you might see.  



2. The effect is not powerful enough
A 3cc spell in Sligh has to be a game winner because it will be cast on the turn that decides if Sligh will win or not. 6 damage to the dome might be worth it but a possible 6 to the dome isn't. Compare Ball to Wheel of Fortune for power levels.


ok, if you are casting wheel on turn 3 anyway, which as you say will be the turn that decides if sligh wins or not, what are you gonna do tapped out? all your options you got is now limited to attacking, or playing a mox (or lotus) and dropping 1-4 dorks, who still cant attack, or in the best case, lotus chain, bolt, bolt. there is also fireblast, but giving your opponent 7 cards means that he might find that misD with the new hand.  so back to the point, now, instead of attacking 2-4 +6(ball) on turn 3, now you are just attacking for 2-4, which would you rather have on the turn that you say would win or lose the game? playing the ball, gets you more toward your goal of getting your opponents life to zero, while wheel helps this, most likely when you cast wheel you are also leaving yourself vulnerable, because its often a turn where you go "wheel, attack(if applicable), moutain, pup, go" not too much going on, however the following turn should be explosive(hoping they didnt mind that mind twist for your new hand).




3. It is not flexible.
Redundancy. Redundancy. Redundancy. Whatever you need you will draw it because you have so many copies in your deck you are certain to find something that will work. Lots of cheap creatures means a cheap early renewable source of damage is almost certain in Sligh. Direct damage can be used to remove blockers (because your dorks can't fight very well) or can burn out an opponent as they drop that Abyss, Moat, COP Red, etc. Balls are not at all flexible and are only useful as a 'finisher'. Balls can only be used to attack and attempt to do 6 to your opponent. Very narrow.


lol.  i too have had extensive sligh experience(both playing and playing against) and i will garentee you that even tho you see so many 4 ofs, you will not see 1 of them alot of times.  this is true for any deck.  sligh especially, because it wants to end the game as fast as possible.  as for you saying that you need burn to get rid of blockers, well, doesnt ball do the same thing? senerio match "lets see, double block ball with 2 chumps and take 2 from the pup, or take 4+ still losing 1 creature." either way its bad for them because getting hit from a ball gets to near that "eot incinerate, main phase bolt, chain i win" life.  and your comments on abyss(which doesnt stop ball, but stops every other creature in the deck-save fanatic if you run them-), moat(which stops EVERY creature sligh has, so whats the point of saying it kills just balls?) and cop red(see moat) isnt thought out enough (see my quotes).  like i said before, balls dont need to be finishers, they work great at getting your opponent to scroll range(which, also uses 3 mana, but yet ball is too mana intensive for sligh  ) or the bolt, chain i win life.  







4. It is unreliable
Any creature removal will wipe out your third turn and quite possibly more (Think Fire/Ice). The widespread use of Fire/Ice and the return of Triskelion plus Masticore has made life tough for Balls. It was generally accepted theory back when early Sligh was a force that in the mirror match whoever cast the first Ball lost. The first Ball met some burn and its controller then met a full turn of hate while tapped out. The momentum never returned.


ok, so, why limit the creature removal to just balls? you are forgeting that even if you dont play a ball, your 3rd turn can still be wiped out just as well, with f/i, plow, edict, or keg(which is actually a good reason ball is helping when a keg is on the table, since agianst sligh keg usually stays on 1, which doesnt effect ball a bit).  again, with the widespread use of core/trashcan, why just limit it to balls? they kill ALL of sligh's creatures.  if you are using this to just get rid of balls, then why arent you using the same rational and get rid of all the creatures in sligh?  as for the mirror, its very complicated, because you got alot of dead/not so useful cards(see pup, wastelands, cadets etc) so it really shouldnt have a effect on this decussion.  



5. There are better cards for the job
If you think of a deck like Keeper there are so many good cards that would work fine in the deck it isn't funny. However it isn't even enough for a card to be good, it has to be better than every other card that hasn't made the cut. Quite simply Ball is worse than Price of Progress in the inflexible burn to the dome slot.


ok, this is true, POP wins games, but then again, so does ball.  however, what if you face a mono deck? what are you gonna do? POP for zero? or cast a ball and go for broke? they are both great cards, and in sligh, i would run both(3 of each main is the number).



6. Mana Drain
Frankly if you plan on winning a tournament you are very likely to see this card. If you cast your Balls when facing UU untapped very very very bad things will happen to you.


god, i am so tired of this point.  "but its a mana drain target!!!" well, by that thinking, so is everything else, so why run anything at all? we can all just sit on our drains and wait for someone to deck.  and honestly, a good sligh player knows how to draw out that drain, in your years of playing sligh, would you honestly cast anything game breaking when UU is open? no, you bait them out with little stuff, till the little stuff overwhelms(sp?) them to force them to use there answers.  then you coutner with game winners.  


these are my thoughts, feel free to retort

[Anonymous]

I won a tourney about 2 months ago playing Goblin sligh.  No Ball Lightnings, but I found Mogg Flunkies to be quite useful.  One player made the mistake of returning all my creatures to my hand.  I then dropped out 3 Raging Goblins and a Recruiter on my next turn which allowed me to top deck my Flunkies.  Needless to say, I ran him over pretty hard.

I'm personally not against the Ball Lightnings and have played with them in the past.  Now, I only own one, so I don't even bother building them into decks.

Anywho, I don't overly enjoy playing slight myself and usually change decks every couple of weeks.  Depending on how my deck performs this weekend, I may post it...LOL.  Of course, I'll probably succumb to a combination of bad mana draws, red cheese, and Morphling madness.

[Anonymous]

Sligh wants the most damage now as it can get.  It relies on efficiency to function.

Ball lightning is an efficient card.

6 damage for RRR and 1 card is excellent.
Shock costs you RRR and 3 cards for the same amount.
Fire is the same, but makes up for it's lack of efficiency in utility.

POP on the third turn is ALSO usually 6 damage for RRR.  Very efficient...but in the mirror?  Against BBS?  Stasis?  Combo?  Not so good anymore.  If everyone is playing keeper and oath...then it's money.  This is clearly a metagame decision.

Lightning Bolt and Chain are the kings of efficiency, bringing home 3 damage for R and one card.  It doesn't get much better than that.

Fireblast costs you RR every turn till the end of the game essentially for 4 and 1 card...but it's played because it deals 4 damage from 1 card.  (and because fork/fireblast...8 damage for RR and two cards dominates even the twin kinds of efficiency seen above.)  The same reason you should run Ball.  6 damage, 1 card.

[Nova]

Let's go back to the mirror match (for Puschkin's sake, a matchup where you face a deck that is almost the same as your own).  If you tap out on turn 3 to play ball, and I cast lightning bolt on it, is that NOT a setback?  1 for 1 trade, but you spent 3 mana where I spent one.  This is tempo advantage, which can swing the game.  This holds true for any deck with targeted removal.  Swords to Plowshares springs to mind immediately.  Fire/Ice is huge as well...

Cards like Ball Lightning, which are slow and narrow (coming active late, not being continuous pressure, and only really serving as a finisher card) just won't cut it when you get to higher competition.

[dandan]

Quote (Guest @ Jan. 28 2003,22:21)here me out on this one, i have a few things to say about this... i am not sure if my quoting works, since i am copying/pasting from a different page



1. It costs too much.
This is very important. The casting cost of three means that if you draw 2 or more before turn 4 you have a clogged hand. The RRR part means that the 5 strips you should have in your deck will often stop you casting it turn 3 even if your opponent does nothing to disrupt your mana. Any mana disruption (strips, Sinkhole, Void, WOrb) pretty much stops you casting them.


so, your saying, in a mono color deck, it has problems getting mana of its own color? sure, you cant cast it with a waste/strip, but then again, why are you keeping a waste or a strip on the board as it is? you want to use these right when you get them, sligh needs all the disruption it can get.  granted, if sligh is facing a mono deck, waste arent that great, cept for the library or mishra or other random jank that you might see.  



2. The effect is not powerful enough
A 3cc spell in Sligh has to be a game winner because it will be cast on the turn that decides if Sligh will win or not. 6 damage to the dome might be worth it but a possible 6 to the dome isn't. Compare Ball to Wheel of Fortune for power levels.


ok, if you are casting wheel on turn 3 anyway, which as you say will be the turn that decides if sligh wins or not, what are you gonna do tapped out? all your options you got is now limited to attacking, or playing a mox (or lotus) and dropping 1-4 dorks, who still cant attack, or in the best case, lotus chain, bolt, bolt. there is also fireblast, but giving your opponent 7 cards means that he might find that misD with the new hand.  so back to the point, now, instead of attacking 2-4 +6(ball) on turn 3, now you are just attacking for 2-4, which would you rather have on the turn that you say would win or lose the game? playing the ball, gets you more toward your goal of getting your opponents life to zero, while wheel helps this, most likely when you cast wheel you are also leaving yourself vulnerable, because its often a turn where you go "wheel, attack(if applicable), moutain, pup, go" not too much going on, however the following turn should be explosive(hoping they didnt mind that mind twist for your new hand).




3. It is not flexible.
Redundancy. Redundancy. Redundancy. Whatever you need you will draw it because you have so many copies in your deck you are certain to find something that will work. Lots of cheap creatures means a cheap early renewable source of damage is almost certain in Sligh. Direct damage can be used to remove blockers (because your dorks can't fight very well) or can burn out an opponent as they drop that Abyss, Moat, COP Red, etc. Balls are not at all flexible and are only useful as a 'finisher'. Balls can only be used to attack and attempt to do 6 to your opponent. Very narrow.


lol.  i too have had extensive sligh experience(both playing and playing against) and i will garentee you that even tho you see so many 4 ofs, you will not see 1 of them alot of times.  this is true for any deck.  sligh especially, because it wants to end the game as fast as possible.  as for you saying that you need burn to get rid of blockers, well, doesnt ball do the same thing? senerio match "lets see, double block ball with 2 chumps and take 2 from the pup, or take 4+ still losing 1 creature." either way its bad for them because getting hit from a ball gets to near that "eot incinerate, main phase bolt, chain i win" life.  and your comments on abyss(which doesnt stop ball, but stops every other creature in the deck-save fanatic if you run them-), moat(which stops EVERY creature sligh has, so whats the point of saying it kills just balls?) and cop red(see moat) isnt thought out enough (see my quotes).  like i said before, balls dont need to be finishers, they work great at getting your opponent to scroll range(which, also uses 3 mana, but yet ball is too mana intensive for sligh  ) or the bolt, chain i win life.  







4. It is unreliable
Any creature removal will wipe out your third turn and quite possibly more (Think Fire/Ice). The widespread use of Fire/Ice and the return of Triskelion plus Masticore has made life tough for Balls. It was generally accepted theory back when early Sligh was a force that in the mirror match whoever cast the first Ball lost. The first Ball met some burn and its controller then met a full turn of hate while tapped out. The momentum never returned.


ok, so, why limit the creature removal to just balls? you are forgeting that even if you dont play a ball, your 3rd turn can still be wiped out just as well, with f/i, plow, edict, or keg(which is actually a good reason ball is helping when a keg is on the table, since agianst sligh keg usually stays on 1, which doesnt effect ball a bit).  again, with the widespread use of core/trashcan, why just limit it to balls? they kill ALL of sligh's creatures.  if you are using this to just get rid of balls, then why arent you using the same rational and get rid of all the creatures in sligh?  as for the mirror, its very complicated, because you got alot of dead/not so useful cards(see pup, wastelands, cadets etc) so it really shouldnt have a effect on this decussion.  



5. There are better cards for the job
If you think of a deck like Keeper there are so many good cards that would work fine in the deck it isn't funny. However it isn't even enough for a card to be good, it has to be better than every other card that hasn't made the cut. Quite simply Ball is worse than Price of Progress in the inflexible burn to the dome slot.


ok, this is true, POP wins games, but then again, so does ball.  however, what if you face a mono deck? what are you gonna do? POP for zero? or cast a ball and go for broke? they are both great cards, and in sligh, i would run both(3 of each main is the number).



6. Mana Drain
Frankly if you plan on winning a tournament you are very likely to see this card. If you cast your Balls when facing UU untapped very very very bad things will happen to you.


god, i am so tired of this point.  "but its a mana drain target!!!" well, by that thinking, so is everything else, so why run anything at all? we can all just sit on our drains and wait for someone to deck.  and honestly, a good sligh player knows how to draw out that drain, in your years of playing sligh, would you honestly cast anything game breaking when UU is open? no, you bait them out with little stuff, till the little stuff overwhelms(sp?) them to force them to use there answers.  then you coutner with game winners.  


these are my thoughts, feel free to retort

1. Yes it costs too much. The more 3cc spells you put in your deck the slower it becomes. Slow Sligh is not good (unless you are looking a LD versions which you are not)

2. It isn't powerful enough. 6 damage (best case scenario) or 7 new cards? What else costs three in Sligh. Nothing. Nothing aprt from Wheel is so overpowerred that it makes raising your average cc worth it.

3. The fact that by putting 4 of a card in your deck does not guarantee that you'll see it does not make putting bad cards in your deck any better. You burn blockers so your Cadets can attack and your Pups survive to attack again. Cast a Ball Lightning at anyone with a brain and they'll leave it alone or fry it (or Mana Drain it). Of course if you see a WW deck you might consider burn or scroll better for taking out first strikers than Ball Lightnings.
My point about Moat, Abyss and COP Red is that having flexible spells means that you can react accordingly. If they drop a Moat you can unload burn at their head, if they have COP Red your reusable creatures go in first to use up their mana then burn goes to the dome, vs The Abyss it is too slow to stop a rush of creatures but can nicely stop stray creatures while others die anyway. What do you leave out of your deck to fit Balls in? Burn? Scrolls? Creatures? Land?

4. My point is that you invest a whole turn on a frail creature. Any creature removal will kill it and when facing Keg assuming you are running Balls and not Vandals   you just slap them with your creatures until they blow the Keg then cast more creatures. If you can't see the difference between their removal killing a 1cc creature and killing a 3cc creature you probably also can't appreciate that you find it hard to use scrolls if you put lots of 3cc spells in your deck.

5. Sligh is a tight deck. To run Balls you need to cut something
a. Creatures - a lack of reusable cheap creatures is the easiest way to ruin a Sligh deck. No early pressure=autoloss
b. Burn - you trade the ability to finish an opponent who has found an answer to your creature rush for some additional creature rush. Opponents who have no answer to your creatures will die anyway (combo excluded and Balls don't really help a lot there)
c. Land - Suddenly that RRR is a problem and you have no chance of casting a Ball and using your Scrolls so you get a clogged hand
d. Scrolls - Give up any chance of a mid-late game for earlier speed. Why not just run Goblin Sligh (where Balls are not used) if you like this style of Sligh?

6. So when playing anyone running blue you don't cast your Balls on turn 3. Fair comment. How about turn 4? Do you just wait until they tap out main phase to cast those Balls?  Mana Drain is a huge problem for Ball Lightning. Assuming you see no Mana Drains, that means you have an aggro or a combo metagame. WTF are you doing running Sligh?

I've tried to refrain from using the 'Balls suck' type of comments that the Type I forums are full of as clearly, on occasion, Balls ARE game winners. They don't suck but there are better things to do with your mana.

     

[Terevaune]

I had ball in my sligh for over 2 months.  I was never happy to draw them.  After testing and 2 tournaments, we found you could trade ball lightning to the local store owver for good cards (the best use IMO).  The card is slow, getting RRR in a deck with 17 mountains is actually difficult (ball usually sat in my hand until on average turn 6.  You do not want turn 6 in sligh.

Browbeat is also horrible.  It leaves you tapped out in hopes you get burn, or they take 5.  Even with 22 mana sources (17 mountain +4 waste + strip), the card will still sometimes sit in your hand.

The only 3 cc card you need is wheel.  Yes, it leaves you tapped out on turn 3, but if it resolves and they don't kill you right there, you will win 90%+ of the time.