After playing Long.dec for a while and knowing its restri...

[term]

After playing Long.dec for a while and knowing its restriction was coming, I started working on a control based deck using Scepters to seal the game.

// Control (13)
4 Mana Drain
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
2 Stifle

// Utility (13)
4 Cunning Wish
4 Isochron Scepter
2 Gorilla Shaman
1 Future Sight
1 Balance
1 Time Walk

// Draw (7)
4 Brainstorm
2 Impulse
1 Ancestral Recall

// Win Condition (2)
2 Morphling or 2 DOJ

// Scepter Stuff (Could Vary) (4)
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Fire/Ice
1 Orim's Chant
1 Abayance

// Manabase (15 U, 5 W, 4 R)
4 Tundra
4 Volcanic Islands
5 Islands
1 Tolarian Academy
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Sol Ring



Sideboard
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stifle
1 Disenchant
2 Fire/Ice
2 Orim's Chant
2 Abayance
1 Misdirection
1 Counterspell
1 Boomerang


Let me go over some of my choices.

First off the manabase, you might notice a excess of colorless mana, this isn't really a bad thing, I try to end up with 1 card drawing scepter at least which makes a good sink for drain mana, also the morphling is a good sink for this mana.

Scepters are great with this much colorless mana because they ignore the original color requirements. But you already know that.

Second, Strip effects. This choice was metagame specific, I don't see Dragon or MUD. So adding strip effects to MD/SB could be a very good change depending on the metagame.

Number of control spells : I have not found 11 hard counters and 2 stifles to be too much, I notice nobody really likes Counterspell, I think if you don't have anything to sink your mana into its a great scepter target, even though its usually not too hard to use drain mana either.

Kill : I have not tested DOJ in this deck but I don't see how it would be too much different than morphling, by the time your ready to play this card your oppoent is suffering and you have gained virtual and or real card advantage with scepters.

Drawing : 4 Brainstorm, 2 Impulse, 1 A.R, 1 Abayance. These cards will let you dig, pitch, and match up what you need to win, with the scepter it just gets better, this is hard card advantage and allowing you to get more mana, more tools and most importantly more control/answers. I should also cover future sight here, this card is questionable to some, many don't like it just because of the UUU cost, its a dead card to open with and sucks even in the early turns. Its a late game silver bullet.

Scepter : Cunning wish makes the scepter, without it you couldn't find the right answer when you need it, some say 4 scepters are too much and they may be right but I really don't think its overkill, the main mistake I think people make with this card is dropping it too soon opening themselfs up.

I think that pretty much covers it, post your thoughts!

[Cpkrug]

when i played this deck i used raise the alarm.  I realy liked the way the 1/1's built up really quick.  Some people use fire/ice but the 1/1's add up so quick the opponent has to do something now to stop them.  Just my thoughts. good luck.

[Moxlotus]

Why Orim's Chant and Abeyance?

I think Counterspell could be replaced by Mana Leak, since you have lots of moxen, you cast Mana Leak after turn 1. This is very useful if you don't have a Scepter or want to make sure to counter something.

[Cedric]

Since you are already running 2 shaman, and 2 stifle, why not add some strip effects?  You also need fetch lands to go along with your brainstorms...i would suggest:
-3 islands
-1 tundra
-1 volc
-1 wish
-1 orim's chant/abeyance (which ever you prefer)

+4 delta/strand
+1 stripmine
+2 wasteland

If your meta has lots of non-basic lands, i would try to find room for the other 2 wastelands.

[term]

Quote (Cpkrug @ Dec. 10 2003,15:54)when i played this deck i used raise the alarm.  I realy liked the way the 1/1's built up really quick.  Some people use fire/ice but the 1/1's add up so quick the opponent has to do something now to stop them.  Just my thoughts. good luck.

Ok I just got done testing this and it seems like it should have 1 slot in the sideboard.

[term]

Quote (Cedric @ Dec. 10 2003,17:04)Since you are already running 2 shaman, and 2 stifle, why not add some strip effects?  You also need fetch lands to go along with your brainstorms...i would suggest:
-3 islands
-1 tundra
-1 volc
-1 wish
-1 orim's chant/abeyance (which ever you prefer)

+4 delta/strand
+1 stripmine
+2 wasteland

If your meta has lots of non-basic lands, i would try to find room for the other 2 wastelands.

I don't encounter dragon or mud and friends so I don't really have a lot of use for strip effects in this meta. However I will add a stripmine for sure. Also Library of Alex slipped my mind, I have one and have no clue why it wasn't in the list because it was in the deck.

Orim's Chant can go, its a descent wish target if someone has a deck that can't deal with it, other than that abayance is better because of the cantrip effect.

As for the deltas, they are great hands down, I just don't have any. I should put them in the listing anyway.

[Comrade Seraph]

I'm getting the impression your meta doesn't have many other control decks either? The reason being that 1) waste/strip effects are gold vs. most control decks, and 2) DoJ is too. DoJ is better than morphling because when you've both got 12 land down, but they're the one with scepter/library down and you can't win a counter war... you just win anyway. That's 'some good'.

I'd personally remove two tundras, add the fetchlands, leave swords/abeyance/chant in the SB as wish targs and go to 3 stifle/3 f/i main deck. The reason being that your main competitive advantage vs. a 4C control deck is fewer non-basic lands, and more counters. More counters is ok, but  winning the land destruction game and color screwing them is how you win- otherwise they're just more broken (will, superior tutoring etc).

[Lord Soth]

I like the deck with the changes to the mana base that Cedric suggested; fetchlands rock!  Also have you considered putting Boomerang in you main deck to use with the Scepter?

[BreathWeapon]

Your deck has some rather big problems with it. You will get ROLLED by Goblins with extreme prejudice. 3 Fire/Ice is mandatory in Scepter control to prevent this, and 2 STP is a requisite against FAT aggro like Spoils-Mask and Stacker. The Abeyance/Orim's Chant locks are "cool," but they aren't practical MD inclusions. They are both pretty worthless vs Aggro on their own, Fire/Ice and STP are not. Nifty Scepters tricks should be relagated to the SB for C.Wish to set up. Speaking of nifty Scepter tricks, Raise the Alarm has no place in Scepter control for a number of reasons. First, if your going to Cunning Wish for a card to Imprint on Scepter, why not STP, Fire/Ice, Hurkyl's or Abeyance? STP effectivley neutralizes FAT Aggro and Dragon, Fire/Ice PWNz Weenie Aggro and draws cards, Hurkyl's = I win vs Workshop and Abeyance smashes classical control. Why Cunning Wish for a rather slow Win Condition when you have already made a concession in your MD for 2 Decree, and better alternatives exist? You can't rely on Scepter as your win condition in the face of the ridiculous amount of Hate Jan 1st will bring with it vs Scepters.

4 Cunning Wish is 1 too many. Its better to diversify your utility by using 3 Cunning Wish and 1 Mystical Tutor.

Morphling is sh!t compaired to DoJ. DoJ can be Mystical Tutored for. DoJ can be played at Instant speed. DoJ is immune to counter wars. DoJ can provide a faster clock. DoJ even nets you a card.

That manabase is a little whack. Fetch Lands? Strip/Wastes are broken. I can't think of any justifiable reason to play the Manabase your using without atleast 3 MD Bloodmoons and a Plains, as seen by Arther Tindemans. Your also really short on Mana Sources, this ain't Hulk.

Word of advice, Mystical Tutor -> Balance or DoJ is broke. It has to be better than an Impulse.

Stifle is Worthless in your deck. Without any form of additional pressure against the opponents manabase, Strip/Wastes, they don't serve a viable funtion in the MD over possible alternatives.

If I had to play U/w/r Non-Bloodmoon Scepter.dec, or 3 Color Chronic, it would look like this:

Control (8)
4xForce of Will
4xManadrain

Engine (4)
4xIsochron Scepter

Search (10)
3xCunning Wish
4xBrainstorm
1xTimewalk
1xAncestral Recall
1xMystical Tutor

Utility (7)
2xSwords to Plowshares
3xFire/Ice
2xGorilla Shaman

Kill (2)
2xDecree of Justice

Bombs (3)
2xFuture Sight
1xBalance

Mana (26)
7xSoLoMoxen
1xStrip Mine
4xWasteland
1xTolarian Academy
4xFetchlands
4xTundra
4xVolcanic Island
1xIsland

Sideboard
2xTormod's Crypt
1xFact or Fiction
1xMisdirection
1xRack and Ruin
1xHurkyl's Recall
1xAbeyance
1xSwords to Plowshares
1xDisenchant
1xStifle
4xRed Elemental Blast
1xBlue Elemental Blast\n\n

[Cedric]

I like the list Breathweapon has posted, however i still think stifle can good MD.  Of course they are wonderful along with the strip effects/shaman for mana denial, and we all know they have solid targets in prison decks, dragon decks, and keeper.  One huge card stifle will help protect you from is pernicious deed.  The deed can single handedly screw you over if it gets by your counter wall.  I tested the original list a little today, and i think 4 scepters are too many.  So for tomorrow i'll test breathweapon's list with the following changes:

-1 scepter
-1 fire/ice

+2 stifle

[BreathWeapon]

The problem with adding Stifle into the Chronic is that there is a serious lack of room, and the primary goal of the deck isn't Mana Denial. Believe me, I love Stifle to death, but the card doesn't fit the deck.

It is however the crown Jewel of U/r Scepter

Cutting Scepters are never an option, FYI.

[Comrade Seraph]

Breath - the 5 strips aren't valid in his meta, apparently... but yeah, I can't think of any T1 deck that shouldn't be running them in most metas.

I guess I appreciate that you're trying to build off the deck he presents, but how is 3C Chronic anything but strictly inferior to 4C Chronic?

What about making the deck Urw - run 1 tundra, 1 plains MD, Balance + 1 decree MD, and chant, disenchant, swords and abeyance as wish targets - that maximizes the white splash, but we can still run blood moon with hardly any loss of function. Run the mystical but maybe also the 4th wish, if we're making this deck so extremely scepter-centric (beyond even the Chronic).

term - what *do* you see much of? If you don't see Dragon, MUD or multi-color control... and your list doesn't seem very teched for scrub aggro... ?

[Cedric]

Breath weapon--I think mana denial should be one of the primary goals of this deck.  I think a strong focus of mana denial will keep opposing decks at bay until you can set up wish-scepter board control. How aggresively do you try to play scepters when you play the deck?  Are you tapping out ASAP?  The way i have been playing the deck is to focus on the mana denial, and try to have enough board control to set up wish-scepter.  I only have a small amount of experience with the deck so I can't really argue the right way to play, or amount of scepters, but from what i've seen so far 3 has been enough. Hopefully i'll get a chance to play a few more games with the deck tomorrow.

[BreathWeapon]

Cedric, believe me I know exactly what your preaching friend, but I have already tried it. The problem isn't putting the Stifles into the deck, its what cards to take out for them. The only reasonable choice is STP, which doesn't work for a couple of reasons. 1st, you can't fit 3 Stifle no matter how hard you try, so your going to be playing Stifle half assed. 2nd, You will lose your best card vs Mask ... that is not acceptable.

Seraph, actually, 3 Color Chronic or Patriot.dec is possibly the strongest Scepter build. Lets get the obvious out of the way, you lose Demonic Tutor, Yawgmoth's Will and Mind Twist MD. You lose the SB Vampiric Tutor and Coffin Purges. Now, lets look at what you gain; Future Sight, DoJ and Shaman at 2x. This redundancey is incredibly strong. The extra Shaman will prove invaluable vs the Control Mirror and Workshop.dec. The DoJ will give you added resources vs Aggro, and a second Future Sight is easily just as broke as Yawgmoth's Will or Mindtwist, even if it is a bit slower. Is the redundancey factor better than the loss of the restricted cards? Probably not. Is it any worse? Not significantly, if at all. What about the SB? Coffin Purge can be easily replaced with Tormod's Crypt, which has its own strengths and weakness'. I'm actually glad the Vampiric Tutor is gone, it makes space for another Hate card in my SB ... which is showing promise vs my opponents, depending on whether or not I do 3xCrypt or Another Hurkyl's or the full set of REB.

So, I think we can conclude that the Improvements or Disadvantages to the MD and SB are minimal either way, depending on how you see things. Now for the sweet part, we can't forget the changes to the manabase. Playing only 3 colors decreases your chances of Color Screw, and it allows the deck to play Tolarian Academy comfortably. I really like the Academy, it should say, " Tap to play Future Sight."

As far as playing Tindemans set up, I can't argue for or against. I already play a Bloodmoon deck in U/r Scepter, and I prefer that over Tindeman's list because its my own deck. In this deck, you'd be hard pressed to find space for Bloodmoons and you would lose valuable tempo vs Workshop decks. I suggest you try and answer this for yourself. I don't care for it, but that doesn't meen its bad.

[term]

Quote (Comrade Seraph @ Dec. 11 2003,02:11)Breath - the 5 strips aren't valid in his meta, apparently... but yeah, I can't think of any T1 deck that shouldn't be running them in most metas.

I guess I appreciate that you're trying to build off the deck he presents, but how is 3C Chronic anything but strictly inferior to 4C Chronic?

What about making the deck Urw - run 1 tundra, 1 plains MD, Balance + 1 decree MD, and chant, disenchant, swords and abeyance as wish targets - that maximizes the white splash, but we can still run blood moon with hardly any loss of function. Run the mystical but maybe also the 4th wish, if we're making this deck so extremely scepter-centric (beyond even the Chronic).

term - what *do* you see much of? If you don't see Dragon, MUD or multi-color control... and your list doesn't seem very teched for scrub aggro... ?

I see lots of MBC, Hulk, Misc "I won't copy a netdeck and like horrible cards" decks, Land destruction. Its pretty random really.

Moxlotus asked about Abayance and Chant, I can totally see dropping chant but abayance is pretty descent IMO, it cantrips and can mess up my opponents turns. I would still keep at least 1 chant on the sideboard as it can shut mud and other decks that can't handle it down.

Comrade Seraph I see lots of MBC, Hulk, Misc "I won't copy a netdeck and like horrible cards" decks, Land destruction. Its pretty random really.

Moxlotus asked about Abayance and Chant, I can totally see dropping chant but abayance is pretty descent IMO, it cantrips and can mess up my opponents turns. I would still keep at least 1 chant on the sideboard as it can shut mud and other decks that can't handle it down.

Comrade Seraph : No I see a bit of MBC with 4 drain/counter/fow/other counters so I end up in counter wars a lot, they also run 4 scepters. This is probably why I was running more counterspells.

BreathWeapon : I think your totally wrong about 3 cunning wish, very rarely do I not find a use for a cunning wish or think I would have rather had a different card. I said earlier that I bumped my F/I count to 2 MD, and I may do the same with STP as well, although I don't think creatures are that popular. (BTW, F/I also seems to be a pretty big help shutting down wMUD).  And you are absolutly right about mystical tutor, I need one main deck for balance.

Cedric : Your right, I would never cut stifle, it has won more than one game for me. Espically vs Hulk.

[BreathWeapon]

Something I have been considering for awhile, and this is really radical, is whether or not Red Elemental Blast can be replaced in the SB with a full set of Stifles. REB has just gotten weaker and weaker as a SB card. Its still a good card, but it just isn't the great card it used to be. I think being able to pull in a full set of Stifles may have more uses than REB across the field. I honestly believe that is more important to protect your Manabase than to win the Counter War vs Fish and Landstill. Stifle is even a hard counter in the Scepter Control mirror. Having a billion and 1 other uses also makes it a rather formidable SB card.

Abeyance vs Chant, this is really your call. I like them both, and Chant may very well be the better card. I like being able to Lock and Draw with Abeyance, but its probably win more. The extra W for the Kicker really isn't much to ask for against Aggro either.

[term]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 11 2003,13:56)Something I have been considering for awhile, and this is really radical, is whether or not Red Elemental Blast can be replaced in the SB with a full set of Stifles. REB has just gotten weaker and weaker as a SB card. Its still a good card, but it just isn't the great card it used to be. I think being able to pull in a full set of Stifles may have more uses than REB across the field. I honestly believe that is more important to protect your Manabase than to win the Counter War vs Fish and Landstill. Stifle is even a hard counter in the Scepter Control mirror. Having a billion and 1 other uses also makes it a rather formidable SB card.

Abeyance vs Chant, this is really your call. I like them both, and Chant may very well be the better card. I like being able to Lock and Draw with Abeyance, but its probably win more. The extra W for the Kicker really isn't much to ask for against Aggro either.

I really don't like REB in the current format over stifle, and not running any stifle main deck? There are very few games where I don't find a good use for stifle which is why I made my choice.

What are your reasons for not using any in the main deck? You don't think there are enough targets?

[BreathWeapon]

Stifle is a great card, and by no meens did I leave it out on account of its kick ass goodness. The problem isn't adding Stifle, its cutting cards for Stifles from my presented list.

Stifle is fighting for the place of STP, and STP is simply necessary for the deck more than Stifle is against the field. STPs are necessary vs Mask, or you'll just die. Stifle is also a rather poor Imprint for Scepter in comparison to STP. Stifle on a Stick doesn't win you the game vs any deck, while STP does.

I also dislike running any less than 3 Stifle in my MD. Only using two seems non-commital to me. I don't like adopting any strategy, LD or not, thats half assed. Thats not to say that only running 2 Stifle MD is bad, its just not my preference.

[term]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 11 2003,15:09)Stifle is a great card, and by no meens did I leave it out on account of its kick ass goodness. The problem isn't adding Stifle, its cutting cards for Stifles from my presented list.

Stifle is fighting for the place of STP, and STP is simply necessary for the deck more than Stifle is against the field. STPs are necessary vs Mask, or you'll just die. Stifle is also a rather poor Imprint for Scepter in comparison to STP. Stifle on a Stick doesn't win you the game vs any deck, while STP does.

I also dislike running any less than 3 Stifle in my MD. Only using two seems non-commital to me. I don't like adopting any strategy, LD or not, thats half assed. Thats not to say that only running 2 Stifle MD is bad, its just not my preference.

You think cunning wish is too slow to win the first game of a mask matchup? And stifle is good there too.

Lets say they get a mask on the board turn 1 and don't have the mana to play it, you don't force it. You go and with either stifle or swords to plowshares your looking good, but with stifle your more likley to be able to cast it with the mana base.

At that rate it shouldn't be a problem to hold off the mask for 1 or 2 turns while you get the mana to wish for the answer, various answers could be STP, Disenchant.

Also I think stifle is very good versus brainstorm fetchland decks, not only do you mess up there turn because they expect to have the mana they need, but you make them draw probably crap they put on top of their library.

How much testing have you done with stifle?

We should also consider what other matchups Stifle can be useful in.

How about Dragon, when dragon comes into play all the permenants are removed from the game including the enchantment bringing it back, and when it leaves everything else comes back, right there you have a pretty solid screwing for a dragon player.

wMUD, I don't know how much stifle can do in this match, about the most useful thing is stoping them from doing a weld at a critical time. I play wMUD and don't really think a stifle will shut it down, but there isn't too much that will. a H.Recall would probably be my biggest fear. Another note here is that wMUD builds seem to run 5 strips, stifle will be useful for protecting my own lands. This applies of course to all decks that run strip effects.

Hulk, I have already talked about this with the fetchland section. It just comes down to land and draw disruption. this is a match where 5 strips stacked with the stifles is going to put the hurt down on my opponent long enough to secure a scepter and win.

Agro, not too much here, it could be a totally dead card and probably a first sideboard out choice.

[BreathWeapon]

Lol, how much testing have I done with Stifle? A lot. In fact I have an entire article written on the effects of Stifle on the Jan 1st meta ready to be submitted to Starcity Games, along with a comprehensive Primer on 4 different Scepter control decks.

Do a little fishing around and look at the U/r Bloodmoon Control thread in the Vintage Forum, the U/r Fish thread in this forum and the Misdirection vs Stifle thread at the top of page 2.

I know exactly how good Stifle is, and how well it performs against the field. I have logged a ridiculous amount of games with U/r Scepter, a deck that has 3 Stifles and no Plows, vs Spoils-Mask and it simply doesn't work the way you hope it will.

Check out the stuff i've already written on Stifle, it should answer a lot of your questions.

[term]

Quote (BreathWeapon @ Dec. 11 2003,18:00)Lol, how much testing have I done with Stifle? A lot. In fact I have an entire article written on the effects of Stifle on the Jan 1st meta ready to be submitted to Starcity Games, along with a comprehensive Primer on 4 different Scepter control decks.

Do a little fishing around and look at the U/r Bloodmoon Control thread in the Vintage Forum, the U/r Fish thread in this forum and the Misdirection vs Stifle thread at the top of page 2.

I know exactly how good Stifle is, and how well it performs against the field. I have logged a ridiculous amount of games with U/r Scepter, a deck that has 3 Stifles and no Plows, vs Spoils-Mask and it simply doesn't work the way you hope it will.

Check out the stuff i've already written on Stifle, it should answer a lot of your questions.

No need to be hostile, it was just a question.

I guess part of my logic comes from never actually crossing a spoils mask deck. To date I have encountered 1 mask deck which was a under buget build that didn't perform very well and got owned by my totally unpowered r/b deck.

I'll have to do some more research on stifle to see if I should cut it.