Im getting a bit tiard of hearing people talk about the s...

[ampeg21]

Im getting a bit tiard of hearing people talk about the same teir 1 decks all the time.  I was wondering if anyone out there tries to compete competatively in their play enviornment with a deck that is totaly differient that the common net decks you read about today.  A deck that you have playtested and tried to perfect.  If so, what kind of quality rogue decks do you use, have you had success with them?  Do they hold up agianst the defacto net decks that are often encountered.  i ask this because i have always played rogue or sui black.  i come from a time and place where it was looked down at to copy someone elses deck and that you should try and make your own creation.  however the mentality has shifted and net decking is the social norm.  but i think most would agree that it is much more enjoyable to win with a deck you made on your own, than to win with one you copied and 10 other people you know play.  So does anyone want to discuss competative rogue decks, or is it just the standard belief around here that they dont exist???

[ampeg21]

ps, im not just talking about budget decks.  rogue decks that sport hella power are nice to see to.  for some reason people who have power feel as if they have to play a "preconstructed" type one deck.  anyway...

[Smash]

All decks are rogue at one point or another... if they don't suck, they become mainstream. If they do suck, only the fanactical worshipers of the deck will play it (*leaves out ABM comment*)

[bebe]

Quote
All decks are rogue at one point or another... if they don't suck, they become mainstream. If they do suck, only the fanactical worshipers of the deck will play it (*leaves out ABM comment*)

This holds true to a degree but I must mention that some decks take much longer to gain acceptance then others. I will for example cite Fish. I wrote the first primer long before the deck was universally played. Then PTW took up the gauntlet almost six months later. Azhrei even mentioned early on that the deck was a potent force. Despite this it never became a universally accepted deck for almost a year.

Landstill is another prime example. Although rich and other Ontarians have been playing the deck for over a year and a half it took a fourth place at Worlds before people gave Rich's deck some consideration - this despoite the fact he played Dragon at Worlds. I could mention Dragon as well as Dicemanx and Rich played a good six months before it was considered a top deck.

With this in mind I will present a deck we arfe currently trying hard to tweak. Carl ( author of Venguer/Mask ) does not see the advantage of this deck over his - he might be right - but our testing and tweaking is proceeding non-the-less we the hope it becomes another force in Type 1 ...

Originally played at Barcelona with a different makeup ...

T. Micol
Maindeck:
3 Mesmeric Fiend
1 Royal Assassin
1 Cabal Interrogator
1 Carrion Feeder
1 Withered Wretch
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Gorilla Shaman
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Monk Realist
1 Anger
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor

4 Cabal Therapy
2 Academy Rector
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Day of the Dragons
1 Regrowth
1 Worldgorger Dragon

1 Armageddon

mana
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Land Grant
3 Llanowar Elves
3 Quirion Elves
3 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Tropical Island
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills

The deck has two win conditions ... Dragon combo and a horde of hasted Dragon flyers. We put the deck together and found that it was gennerally to vulnerable to quick combo and even control could cause problems. We looked at a few of the decks that use the engine and decided to streamline the build and add some strong enchantments to tutor for ...
Pernicious Deed
Yawg's Bargain
We then put Seals in the side as another good tutor target.
We wanted more disruption in the form of counters or removal - Mesmeric Fiends and Royal Assasin were not as efficient as we liked so StPs joined the mix and Meddling Mages.

 so this the latest build ...

search - 8
4 Brainstorm
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg's Bargain
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Ancestral Recall

Utility creatures - 9
2 Meddling Mage
2 Quirion Ranger
1 Tradewind Rider
1 Xantid Swarm
1 Devout Witness
1 Genesis
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob

Combo elements - 15
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Academy Rector
1 Day of the Dragons
1 Dance of the Dead
1 Ambassador Laquatus
1 Worldgorger Dragon

utility - 5
3 StP
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Time Walk

mana - 24
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Tropical Island
3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet

[Riggy]

I'm playtesting a rogue that uses Raven Guild Masters and fire shriekers to deck an opponent. It's mono blue control, usually has a guildmaster down with a shrieker and swinging on third turn. The mechanism to get him through any defenders was Shadow Rift on a scepter (which usually came around turn 4 or 5 - far too slow). For those who don't remember, Shadow Rift was a 1cc blue instant that gave target creature shadow until end of turn and cantripped.

I'm also working on a B/U version to see if it's any stronger. Adds Shadowmage infiltrators, demonic tutor, yawg will. A U/w variant was already tried and scrapped. White added nothing too spectacular and the build began to look more and more like a rector build. If I can settle on a decklist and I don't get flamed off the board for suggesting it, I'll post it by the end of the workday.

I wasn't originally going to post a decklist, but I figure it can't hurt to get some help with it. Also, we're proxy 5 here, so the power I've listed (minus the Library of Alexandria) is all that I have.

Lands: 27
1x Library of Alexandria
1x Mox Sapphire
1x Black Lotus
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
4x Flooded Strand
4x Wastelands
1x Strip Mine
13x Islands

Kills: 5
4x Raven Guild Master
1x Morphling

Draw: 10
4x Accumlated Knowledge
3x Brainstorm (or Impulse, the jury is still out)
2x Intuition
1x Stroke of Genius

Utility: 18
4x Isochron Scepter
3x Fireshrieker
4x Force of Will
4x Mana Drain
3x Shadow Rift

All the choices are fairly standard. I chose not to include Brain Freeze in the deck due to the prevelance of dragon decks in my meta. However, it may go in as a sideboard card and I'll MD some cunning Wishes. I haven't decided yet.

I'm contemplating playing some off-color moxen for acceleration, but the need for double blue has prevented me from doing so as of yet.

My other variant that kind of worked was U/r
-4 Islands
+4 Volcanic Islands
+2 Gorilla Shaman
+1 Wheel of Fortune
-3 varied/whim

I've tried various other cards in here as well, such as Standstill, and haven't been overly happy with them yet. Anyway, that's my rogue deck that I'm building. When Scourge came out, I fell in love with the guild master and Mirrodin gives it the boost to actually have a use.

[BreathWeapon]

I like to play anything that can support Isochron Scepter or Workshops, even if it is funky looking.

DicemanX's "Skull" is a lot of fun if you wish to fead your inner Timmy. ReAnimator is still a blast to play as well.

Unrestrict Entomb!

[Robert the Swordsman]

I play what one may call a "rogue" deck. I don't know if it is exactly competitive, but it has been doing quite well for me.

Here it is...

//NAME: Politics
//Artifacts (16):
     1 Zuran Orb
     1 Mox Sapphire
     1 Mox Emerald
     1 Mox Pearl
     1 Mox Jet
     1 Black Lotus
     1 Sol Ring
     1 Mana Vault
     3 Winter Orb
     3 Tangle Wire
     2 Ivory Tower
// Blue (14):
     4 Trade Routes
     4 Force of Will
     1 Fact or Fiction
     1 Mystical Tutor
     1 Gush
     1 Ancestral Recall
     1 Time Walk
     1 Timetwister
//White (7):
     4 Land Tax
     1 Swords to Plowshares
     1 Balance
     1 Enlightened Tutor
//Black (3):
     1 Demonic Tutor
     1 Mind Twist
     1 The Abyss
//Green (2):
     1 Gaea's Blessing
     1 Regrowth
//Multi (3):
     2 Iridescent Angel
     1 Vindicate
// Land (15):
     4 Flooded Strand
     4 Plains
     3 Island
     1 Swamp
     1 Forest
     1 Tundra
     1 Tolarian Academy

//Sideboard (15):
     4 Meddling Mage
     3 Tormod's Crypt
     3 Hurkyll's Recall
     2 Swords to Plowshares
     2 Seal of Cleansing
     1 Rule of Law

The deck is basically Land Tax / Trade Routes drawing engine with some artifact lock components for control and other good cards thrown in to top it off. Some of the cards may seem a bit subpar, but believe me when I say that this has been thought out for many months and, for the time being, they are the more optimal choices. I have been playing it since July of 2003 and have been altering it ever since to try and get it its best.

I had some very long and thought out card explanations, however the last time I tried to edit the main post, they were all accidentally deleted due to my computer being terrible. Any suggestions would be awesome, and there is a link to it in my signature if anyone would like to see the main thread.

Also, I'm glad you put this thread up. I, too, would like to see what original ideas others have come up with.

Thanks.

[Sytupal]

I must say working for The Gathering here on Cape cod has it's advantages.  One of them is that i can build decks any time i want with pretty much any card i choose.  It's type 2, but still a strange build.   There's recently been talk about long type 2 and i've come up with a version of my own that's being playtested and is a lot of fun to play with.  Let's see if i can think of this off the top of my head...


4 Frogmite
4 Myr Enforcer
4 Welding Jar
4 Ornithopter
4 Thoughtcast
4 Talisman of dominance
4 Talisman of Success?( w/u one)
4 Future Sight
2 Chrome Mox( would be 4 if i the store had 2 more extra)
4 Tendrils of Agony
2 Spoils of the Vault
4 Chromatic Sphere
4 Aether Spellbomb
4 Seat of Synod
4 Great Furnace
4 Vault of Whispers

Ideally I'd run 4 Chrome Moxes and NO spoils of the vault.  It's very situational and not worth it. i end up removing too much of my free casters haha.  It works well... as of right now Mind's Desire is still a thought but mostly this is how the build primarily looks.  It works like affinity with a big bang at the end of an explosive turn.  It works pretty well.... suggestions? anyone?

[Meddling Mage]

Sytupal:
The biggest problem with this deck that I can see is the ornithopters and the welding Jars, you also seem to be missing a solid win condition, I don't think 4 Myr Enforcer and 4 frogmites are going to get the job done all that well, maybe you should add Broodstars, big cheap fliers win games sometimes in type II I hear.

[Crater Hellion]

Tendrils of agony wins games in decks where it's the kill card I hear. However, Rich's deck isn't really something new to T2  

[Brutha]

@ Riggy: Why is Raven Guild Master/Fireshrieker/Shadow Rift better than Goblin Charbelcher/Mana Serveance?

@ Sytupal: Why not Tormod's Crypt over Ornithopter?

[Brutha]

-sry double post-

[Crater Hellion]

@crypt- it's because his deck is t2, where crypt isn't legal.

edit:
http://www.themanadrain.com/cgi-bin....4;st=20

it's really just a weaker version of a weaker build of a good deck  

[Sytupal]

i did make note that it's type 2 and im also aware it's not hugely rogue      however it's different from other builds and i felt i should post it up.

[Motrax]

As Keeper was my favorite deck at one point, I modified it (old version, from 2001 or something) to win with Time Walk, 2 Gaea's Blessing, and a Jester's Cap. The "combo" works when you have no cards in your library, so you just keep recurring Walk, Blessing, and Cap with the other Blessing to get infinite turns and Cap your opponent's library away.

The reason this could conceivably be better than a regular win condition is the fact that each of the combo pieces can all be used seperately - none of them are solely in the deck for winning. Cap is good against combo; the 2 Blessings, although sub-optimal, are still not completely dead draws, and Time Walk is an inclusion in most blue-based control decks anyway.

Here was the old decklist, from 2001 or early 2002:

//NAME: Untitled Deck
// Countermagic
        4 Force of Will
        3 Counterspell
        2 Duress
        2 Mana Leak
// Win
        1 Time Walk
        2 Gaea's Blessing
        1 Jester's Cap
// Draw/Search
        1 Demonic Tutor
        1 Future Sight
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Ancestral Recall
// Utility
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        3 Seal of Cleansing
        2 Fire / Ice
        1 Moat
// Mana
        4 Helm of Awakening
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Black Lotus
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Ruby
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Mox Emerald
        2 Underground Sea
        4 Tundra
        3 Tropical Island
        3 Volcanic Island
        1 Plains
        2 Polluted Delta
        4 Flooded Strand

Aside from the fact that this is nowhere near a great build, the combo is too vulnerable to graveyard hate. Where Dragon can rely on winning before too much hate is played, this deck always goes into the late game when it wins. But this is about rogue concepts, so here're my 2 cents.

[ampeg21]

Its good to see some interest in this thread.  for a site that wants to increase the seriousness and viability of the type one formant, i think that looking at competative rogue decks is one of the best ways to make that advancement.  sometimes when i read this site i feel as if its a bit inbread with everyone discussing the same 5 decks.  As Smash said, "all decks are rogue decks at once before they come main stream."  If this is the case, which i most agree, you would think a site like this would have more focus, if not a whole forum dedicated to the development of rogue decks that could at one point become main stream.  Instead all we get every now and then is the random person who feebily posts a deck they are working on hoping to not get flamed.  I think that this community needs to support more "rogue" deck development.

anyway...

Riggy,
COol deck, i think that you should add a vampiric tutor, that way you can make sure that you have a fireshrieker, guildmaster, or shadow rift in hand, since those are the cards you need to win.  ps, does placing doublestrike on your guildmaster make your opponed mill 20 cards?  i assume this is the case otherwise the card would be pointless in your deck.
I would go with impuls, if its on a sceptor its going to cost two anyway, plus it seems like a better search tool which your deck needs anyway.

Robert the swordsman,  you too should be playing vampiric, since you only have two win conditions, it can also be  great to get out your abyss or a balance when you really need it.  nice build, its kind of like a wierd keeper.

Motrax- i think id have to see your win condition first before i believed that it was at all realiable.  how do you get your deck down to such a small number of cards for it to work?

Sytupal-  cool type two long build, however id like to keep this thread focused on type one.  thanks.  

breathweapon, why dont you show us one of your funky workshop, sceptor builds???


thanks to everyone who responded, lets keep it up.

[ampeg21]

People,  when you respond to this thread, or even post your own deck list, PLEASE RESPOND TO SOMEONE ELSES DECKLIST AND PROVIDE FEEDBACK.  (not trying to sound like im yelling, just want people to read that).  YOu dont have to respond to everyones post like i tried to do, just one that you think you can provide critical feedback to.  the point of the tread is to not only see other peoples rogue decks but to help them with them as well.  THANKS



Bebe-  like you said, im not sure if i can see how this alternate build is better than the standard dragon.  it seems like its trying to do the same thing, just in an alternate way that may or may not be more efficient.  with that said id really have to see the deck operate in order to give feedback.  if you put in bizars your deck would pretty much be dragon and no longer rogue.  but good luck with the build, only play testing will tell.

[Riggy]

I actually took 2 minuets to pull my welder deck apart and build the Raven guild master deck last night before the draft. I added all of the cool cards I didn't have in the above list (Fact or Fiction being most important). We came to several conclusions after playing about a dozen games.

1) The Fireshrieker was a "win-more" card. It does indeed make them mill twenty instead of 10, but all too often it just sat in my hand.

2) A second morphling did wonders for my games against sui-black. Morphling with a fireshrieker does wonders against negator. =P

3) The black splash for Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, and 2 Spoils (since my win condition is a bunch of unrestricted cards) was great.

The deck wasn't supposed to be better than Mana Severance/Charbelcher. The question asked in the first post was who plays rogue decks. My standard type 1 deck is a slaver/stacker 3 deck. My second choice is a new variant on Star Spangled Slaughter (or at least that's what one of my friends said it was - I've never heard of the deck before). This is a good casual deck b/c it's great for laughs.

In all my games, I only managed to get a greaved Raven first turn once, and on the second turn maybe 4 times. We didn't get to play much after I added black, but I don't think this deck will ever be anything more than casual.

[Hi-Val]

Not that it would be very viable, but I would love to see someone make a T1 Battle Of Wits deck, possibly with Arc Slogger as another win to it. The card has that "could be broken" status about it. However, with 250 good cards in T1, it may be a deck that only the eleven richest kings in Europe can play!

Btw, I love to see all the rogue decks here. There seems to be a lot of rogue combo. Why do you think that is? Have all the aggro decks already been built? Even Food Chain Goblins is combo masquerading as aggro. What cards will need to be printed to make successful new aggro decks? The same with Control, be it LD or Disruption or blue-based, there seems to be little innovation in that field.

Sorry if this is off-topic!

[bebe]

The question never was whether or not it is better than dicemanx's or my spoils dragon. I corresponded with dicemanx as we have developed decks together before. His comments ...

Quote
It's my kind of deck. It's full of random powerful cards and effects, which makes the game quite interesting. It's hard to offer many comments on it, as it's hard for me to gauge just how effective some of the cool tricks are in the deck. I'd really like to see this deck in action.

It is not meant to play like standard dragon but it needed a same turn win condition. Day of Dragons often is my method of choice for finishing. What the deck does is incorporate a number of effects that change the game play dramatically in the course of a turn. It can sit back and be very defensive or go aggressive.
What we question is whether or not this deck has any advantages over a Venguer Masque build. Carl does not believe it does and needs a lot more evidence to justify playing this over hois deck - I developed it because I do not own four Masks and was looking for an explosive deck in the same mold as his.

[Ephraim]

Rogue Type II

This is a goblin based-deck. I'm always looking for a budget build, so some of the choices 1) are suboptimal and 2) led to some interesting interactions with other cards that I initially put in to shore up the weaknesses of said suboptimal cards.

Mana Sources (22)
15 Mountain
7 Plains

Goblins (20)
2 Sparksmith
2 Spikeshot Goblin
4 Rock Jockey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Goon
4 Goblin Psychopath

Artifacts (8)
4 Pyrite Spellbomb
2 Scale of Chiss-Goria
2 Loxodon Warhammer

Spells (10)
4 Awe Strike
2 Shatter
2 Pyroclasm
2 Circle of Protection: Red

The two big concessions I made, to make this a budget deck, were the inclusions of Goblin Psychopath and Rock Jockey instead of better, more expensive cards like Siege-Gang Commander or Goblin Piledriver. Goblin Psychopath is particularly difficult to use, and it led to the inclusion of Circle of Protection: Red. I was pleased with this interaction, because it not only shored up the Psycopath, but it made Sparksmith incredibly good. Instead of being selective about which creatures I killed, I could shoot at anything with impunity. Later, Awe Strike and Loxodon Warhammer helped make both Goblin Psychopath and Sparksmith even better (yielding a net life gain for their use). With the Warhammers, I also decided to use Spikeshot Goblin. The two cards together have proven invaluable. Finally, because the average size of my creatures is well above that of a normal Goblin deck, and because small creatures often pose a large threat, I maindeck Pyroclasm. To help counteract this, I also use Scale of Chiss-Goria to keep a Spikeshot Goblin or a Goblin Warchief alive. The Scales have proven useful in deflecting shocks and spellbombs from my smaller creatures as well.

~~~~~~

@ Sytupal:

Have you considered more card drawing in the Type II deck you described above? It looks like you're trying to lay down a bunch of zero casting cost artifacts before dropping a Tendrils of Agony. I tried the same concept (but monoblack), and I found myself consistently running out of cards before I could do anything with the Tendrils. Something to refill your hand, once you've got the Tendrils, so you actually have spells to fuel it, might be worthwhile.

[Crater Hellion]

At the beginning of the summer I got 9th place in my first power tourney with a B/W/g Rector Dragon build. I think I might bust it out for another tourney soon- I'll let ya know how it goes.