Shapeshifters and multiple imprints (and other problems)

[Jacob Orlove]

I'm not 100% sure what happens here, so I figured I'd ask the experts:

First, I have a vesuvan doppelganger, copying a death-mask duplicant. I use its ability to imprint three creatures: a Grizzly Bears, a Hill Giant, and a Phantom Monster. Then, I change my Doppelganger to become a Soul Foundry (upon which I had earlier cast animate artifact). What happens if I try to activate the foundry for 2? for 4?

Second, if I have a Volrath's Shapeshifter that's copying a Dominating Licid, which is controlling a creature of my opponents, what abilities does it have? What if the top card of my graveyard changes? And what if Humility is in play? Can it still change back into a creature?

Also, please help me with the following: "What if I cast Replenish with 2 Humility, Opalescence and Angelic Chorus in my graveyard?"

[jpmeyer]

While I'm genuinely interested with finding out what happens with the first question, you're just trying to be difficult with the second.

[JSexton]

I'm not 100% sure what happens here, so I figured I'd ask the experts:

Oh, good. Easy questions.  I'm going abbreviate cards as much as I can get away with.

First, I have a vesuvan doppelganger, copying a death-mask duplicant. I use its ability to imprint three creatures: a Grizzly Bears, a Hill Giant, and a Phantom Monster. Then, I change my Doppelganger to become a Soul Foundry (upon which I had earlier cast animate artifact). What happens if I try to activate the foundry for 2? for 4?

Okay. The rules for Imprint say that if a card has more than one card imprinted on it, then each of those cards counts, if the type matches. Soul Foundry is looking for a creature card of CMC X. Activating the VD/SF for 2 gets you a Bear token. Activating for 4 gets you both a Giant and a Monster token.

Second, if I have a Volrath's Shapeshifter that's copying a Dominating Licid, which is controlling a creature of my opponents, what abilities does it have? What if the top card of my graveyard changes? And what if Humility is in play? Can it still change back into a creature?

VS is no longer a copy card. It just sets a whole bunch of characteristics based on the top card of the 'yard. In the first case, it is just as though it's a real Licid, plus the line: "(2): Discard a card from your hand."

If the top card changes, then the VS will set all of it's characteristics to match the new card. This includes overwriting the type, so it will no longer be an Enchant Creature, just a Creature, so you'll lose control of your opponent's creature.

If Humility is in play? VS isn't a Creature at that time, just an Enchant Creature, so Humility won't affect it.  If you use the ability to change back to a creature, it will do so, then immediately become a 1/1 with no abilities.

Also, please help me with the following: "What if I cast Replenish with 2 Humility, Opalescence and Angelic Chorus in my graveyard?"

David Delaney (the official usenet netrep) has said that technically, Humility doesn't work right. Play as though it does, anyway. So, since Hu depends on Op, and AC depends on both, apply them in the order: Op, Hu, AC. You end up with Op as normal, and Hu and AC as 1/1s with no abilities, and no life is gained. Remember, stuff that triggers on "When ~ comes into play" doesn't get trigger until you figure out _exactly_ what comes into play.

Adding another Op to this mix makes both the Ops into 1/1s as well, with no other changes. I _think_ this is right, although it's gone back and forth a few times.

In other words, punch anyone who uses these cards in the same deck. Seriously.

[JSexton]

While I'm genuinely interested with finding out what happens with the first question, you're just trying to be difficult with the second.

Oh, I dunno. A FEB variant could theoretically run Dominating Licid. It's a valid question. Besides, it's always fun to poke around under Magic's hood. You never know what you might turn up.

[Tristal]

1) 502.34.Ruling.4 - If a permanent gains an ability that refers to an imprinted [type] card, it refers to any cards of that type that are currently imprinted. It does not mean that you get to imprint something new at that time. [WotC Rules Team 2003/12/01]

This seems to imply you can activate it for 4 and get either a Hill Giant, or a Phantom Monster, and not both, and not Grizzly Bears.  Exercising common sense is good here.

2) Text (EX+errata): 1/1. ; {1}{U}{U},{Tap}: ~this~ loses all abilities, becomes an enchant creature enchanting target creature. It gains "{U}: End the effect that created this ability." ; You control enchanted creature. [WotC Rules team 2003/12/01]

The only abilities it has are "You control enchanted creature." and "U: End the effect that created this ability."  The cards in your graveyard are totally irrelevant.  Humility is irrelevant because it only affects creatures, not Enchant Creatures.  Just pay U to end the effect and make it a creature again.
(What scares me is that somehow when you combine Volrath's Shapeshifter with the Licid effects, the ruling gets EASIER than most.)

3) There's another thread that Jaap responded in which outlines Humility/Opalescence interactions.  Suffice to say that if you are playing Humility/Opalescence/Replenish in a sanctioned tournament and don't know the rules for it hands down, you are so totally getting a Match Loss (Unsportsmanlike Conduct - Severe, playing retarded cards) ;)

[JSexton]

1) 502.34.Ruling.4 - If a permanent gains an ability that refers to an imprinted [type] card, it refers to any cards of that type that are currently imprinted. It does not mean that you get to imprint something new at that time. [WotC Rules Team 2003/12/01]

This seems to imply you can activate it for 4 and get either a Hill Giant, or a Phantom Monster, and not both, and not Grizzly Bears.  Exercising common sense is good here.

Where do you get the implication that you can only get one creature and not both? (emphasis mine)

[DEA]

Text (MR): Imprint - When ~this~ comes into play, you may remove a creature card in your hand from the game. (The removed card is imprinted on this artifact.) ; ,{Tap}: Put A[/i] creature token into play that's a copy of the imprinted creature card. X is the converted mana cost of that card.

singular, my dear, singular

[Tristal]

DEA spelled it out - form the text on Soul Foundry itself.

[JSexton]

Hmm. It's written in the singular form, since there will normally only be a single card imprinted. Why confuse players by putting wording to accomodate strange corner cases? I'm not certain, however, that the wording actually _prevents_ multiple tokens from being generated.

The logic here is not unlike asking for the P/T of a Duplicant that has somehow had more than one creature imprinted. You literally get multiple values that apply separately.

I'll check with David Delaney and get an official answer.

[DEA]

yes, you go do that  :lol:

[JSexton]

OK, I retract my answer about Soul Foundry above. You just get the one token, for the reasons mentioned by DEA and Tristal. Mea Culpa.

[DEA]

it's only confusing when certain strange, unlikely situations occur (wtf~?? vesuvans and animated soul foundries??)
normally i file them under humility/opalescene/angelic chorus/pandemonium qns  :lol:

[TimeBeing]

Humility Oplencance is easy now with 8th rules.

Sept 2003 Rules team ruleing.

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting
with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of
layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying
Objects"), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4)
type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous
effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or
toughness-changing effects.
     Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities
first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from
characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and
dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).


* If a single ability creates multiple different effects and those effects
could be applied in more than one layer (such as an ability that creates
effects that set permanent type, color, and power/toughness), apply each of
the effects in the appropriate layer.


* The revised rule means that nearly all continuous effects work as players
expect them to.


* Some effects, such as Humility's effect, have been clarified by this
change. Humility doesn't affect any type-, supertype- or subtype-changing
effects at all, so the scenario of Opalescence + Opalescence + Humility,
which had been really confusing, is now simple to handle. Opalescence
creates a type-changing effect. Humility creates an "other" effect and a
power/toughness-changing effect. Opalescence's effect is always applied
before Humility's effects. As a result, all enchantments are 1/1 creatures
with no abilities if Humility and one or more Opalescences are in play.

[Jebus]

Humility Oplencance is easy now with 8th rules.

Sept 2003 Rules team ruleing.

418.5a The values of an object's characteristics are determined by starting
with the actual object, then applying continuous effects in a series of
layers in the following order: (1) copy effects (see rule 503, "Copying
Objects"), (2) control-changing effects, (3) text-changing effects, (4)
type-, subtype-, and supertype-changing effects, (5) all other continuous
effects, except those that change power or toughness, and (6) power- or
toughness-changing effects.
     Inside each layer, apply effects from characteristic-setting abilities
first, then effects from all other abilities. For power- or
toughness-changing effects, apply changes from counters after changes from
characteristic-setting abilities. See also the rules for timestamp order and
dependency (rules 418.5b-418.5g).


* If a single ability creates multiple different effects and those effects
could be applied in more than one layer (such as an ability that creates
effects that set permanent type, color, and power/toughness), apply each of
the effects in the appropriate layer.


* The revised rule means that nearly all continuous effects work as players
expect them to.


* Some effects, such as Humility's effect, have been clarified by this
change. Humility doesn't affect any type-, supertype- or subtype-changing
effects at all, so the scenario of Opalescence + Opalescence + Humility,
which had been really confusing, is now simple to handle. Opalescence
creates a type-changing effect. Humility creates an "other" effect and a
power/toughness-changing effect. Opalescence's effect is always applied
before Humility's effects. As a result, all enchantments are 1/1 creatures
with no abilities if Humility and one or more Opalescences are in play.

Actually, the Humility-Opalescence combination still doesn't work the way it is supposed to.

However, until this is fixed, play it like this ruling describes.

[DEA]

we have a very good way of dealing with situations like this in our group games
the dumbass who came up with it gets kicked and is banned for the next round  :lol:  :lol:

[TimeBeing]

Actually, the Humility-Opalescence combination still doesn't work the way it is supposed to.

However, until this is fixed, play it like this ruling describes.

how doesn't it work? everything is a 1/1?

Timebeing
Dci level 1 judge.

[JSexton]

Actually, the Humility-Opalescence combination still doesn't work the way it is supposed to.

However, until this is fixed, play it like this ruling describes.

how doesn't it work? everything is a 1/1?

It simply Doesn't Work. It tries to set characteristics in the wrong places, and ends up getting overwritten when it isn't supposed to. The intent is for everything to be a 1/1 with no abilities, and That's What Happens, Darnit.

Not to mention the fact that its ability takes away its own ability...  ::boggle::