Thoughts on this deck?

[Robert the Swordsman]

This is a more competitive version of a deck that I had built some time ago. In fact, it was the first deck I ever brought to a power tournament, but, like I said, it's been updated for the better.

This is it...

WhiteKnightsAreBetterThanNinj as.dec

Creatures:
4 White Knight
4 Black Knight
4 River Boa

Draw / Search:
1 Demonic Tutor
2 Sylvan Library
1 Regrowth

Disruption / Removal:
4 Duress
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Balance
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Diabolic Edict
4 Vindicate
3 Null Rod

Other:
3 Rancor

Mana:
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Windswept Heath
4 Scrubland
4 Savannah
4 Bayou

Sideboard:
2 Seal of Cleansing (would Naturalize or Disenchant be better / worse?)
1 Swords to Plowshares
3 Meekstone
2 Absolute Law
2 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Ground Seal
2 Choke

...for the time being, this is what I'll be playing. It's somewhat of a hate-deck.

In the past, it proved to work somewhat well. Black Knight avoids Swords, White Knight avoided The Abyss (which was pretty popular at the time) and smashes Negators, and Boa is just a generally awesome guy. The fourth Wasteland and the Null Rods are actually new additions (I removed Necropotence due to BBB casting cost and Mind Twist due to it being only effective when I have alot of mana available, which almost never happens, and one Edict and one Swords), and I think they'll work out for the better.

Thoughts?

[Fëanor]

null rod........................wi th power...........um........... ....?

well i think thats the only thing that ive seen wrong with this deck. everytime i see it played, rod sits useless in hand. if you ask me, id put in Meddling Mages, but i know you wont go for that....

worried about artifact beatdown? theres always disenchant. i just dont think the rod would be helpful except in artifact heavy decks (which for people not in the area, there are quite a few of). why not at least sideboard them and use the maindeck room for something more offensive?

there isnt really a replacement for rod in b + w. but anytime i see you playing the wrong deck with it, youd have been happy to not have it burn a hole sitting in hand.
maybe thats just my observation.
you have a reason to play enlightened tutor, but only if you think the resource is worth it...idk...im just a lowly type one player

Peace

[Plainswalker]

The only thing that stood out to me Rob is the threats. Your not running very "strong" creatures nor very many of them. The Rancor helps, but I think to make this more competitive you need to be able to put them on a clock. No ideas for you right now on this, I'll talk to you later about it.

@ Feanor: Lots of decks run power and null rod, it's to improve his bad match ups, losing a few moxen to it if you hurt your opponent more isn't so bad. At least thats the way I see it  

Hope I didn't kill your thread Rob, I seem to have that effect of late.

[rmn]

First, I worry about playing a three color deck with double-colored CC creatures.  Are you always able to put out a White or Black Knight from your opening hand by the second turn?  Are your Moxes being used to their full extent if they cannot help pay for colorless mana costs to bring out a creature turn one?

Second, the threats themselves aren't really that threatening.  Facing down Juggernauts is facilitated by your removal, but a White Knight usually won't kill them before they can recover.

To help on both counts, the first creature that comes to mind is Quirion Dryad.  Playing it turn one is easier and it is easier to get one green than double black.  And it will be a lot bigger.  I have also seen some trying Forgotten Ancient.

If this is a theme deck, sorry for spoiling the fun.  Incidentally, Rancor + first strike is some cool.  But effective ninjas will always be better than shiny White Knights.

[Fëanor]

Bah, theme deck or no, hes got quite the juicy thing going.

@rmn: yes first strike is sexy with rancor, and dont forget it.  

when ive played against the deck, my sligh was devastated. there was only a certain amount of beats i could get rid of. if you dont think the threats are imposing, you havent played against it. 4/2 first strikers can kill you as fast as Blasts and Angels.

its true the deck concept is somewhat outdated, which he mentioned. idk whether thats a good thing or not..........

@Rob: you shouldnt have mana problems with this deck, all seems to have been working quite well, but dont forget, you need some sort of defense against the mountain maker (BM). Having Sylvan almost always ensures you the right mana when you need it, so,  fear not the color of their skin, play them anyway

Peace

[Ephraim]

I'm not sure if it would help any, but Naturalize maindeck or sideboard (I don't know where Blood Moon usually shows up) would help you deal with that particular threat. To make it possible to use the Naturalize, even when under Blood Moon lock, you might use Elvish Spirit Guide. Would the deck benefit from the extra green acceleration?

[Robert the Swordsman]

After testing, I'm pretty happy. The overall success rate is pretty high.

Things it doesn't like:

Blood Moon
Creatures bigger than it

I tried some basics for a bit, but firstly, Swamps can't be fetched, and secondly, the non-basics for WW and BB are pretty essential. Sideboard can probably find an answer.

Yes, it doesn't like seeing big things across the table, but like I said, sideboard could probably handle that... Meekstone, maybe?

Thoughts?

[JACO]

Hey there, since your colors are Black, White, and Green, don't you think that Spectral Lynx could find a home in here? With all the green creatures running amok in the current metagame, it seems like it would be better than pretty much any other creature in the deck. It just seems like the creatures in here aren't much of a clock, and if you are going to run double casting cost creatures that are black, I would much rather have them be Withered Wretch (because of it's ability to devastate the strategy employed by numerous decks right now, i.e. abusing the graveyard), or Nantuko Shade (which is just a beating).

If you're worried about things like Moat or Abyss, you could drop in a couple of main deck Naturalizes, which are never a dead draw. It's not like there's a deck that doesn't run artifacts and/or enchantments. Or you could possibly take a page from the Euro Green/White stompy decks and run Wax/Wane, which could serve as a Giant Growth or blow away a problematic enchantment. Or, if you see a LOT of problematic enchantments, Ray of Revelation usually will get through that disruption and counter wall.

What I like about this deck is the removal, but I would drop the Diabolic Edicts in favor of Chainer's Edicts. I am aware that you would be sacrificing the possible instant speed of Diabolic, but the possibility to kill two creatures, or go 2-for-1 card advantage, I think outweights that. With Misdirection semi-absent from decks right now, Vindicate is beautiful in here.

EDIT:

Things it doesn't like:

Blood Moon
Creatures bigger than it

Blood Moon gets cleaned up by Vindicate, Naturalize, Ray of Revelation, and Wax/Wane. You might want to run one of each of the basic lands in here to fetch in case you suspect a pending Blood Moon.

Also, you don't really care about bigger creatures too much with 2 Swords, 2 Edicts, and 4 Vindicates. Just clear them out of the way and continue to enter the red zone.

[?ISuck@MTG?]

Is there a reason why you chose Prot. from Black over Prot. from Red? (White or Silver Knight)

Prot. from black gives protection from what in the Mono Black decks arsenal? Just creatures? Negator can be chump blocked by River Boa, which then Regens... Silver Knight = Win vs. Sligh, but the deck is already a house vs. Sligh, so is that why you chose White Knight over Silver Knight?

[airwalk]

Negator seems like a nice fit.

[theorigamist]

The reason you're having a hard time fitting in basics for Blood Moon is because your creature base is double-colored.  Here are some other bigger creatures you could be using:

Negator
Exalted Angel
Masticore

You also probably want more card drawing.  Rancor is unnecessary with the bigger creatures, so those could become Scrying or something.  Or you could splash blue for drawing, and that would also give you Meddling Mages, but four colors might be spreading it too thin.

Regrowth isn't that powerful in this deck.  Your removal is pretty redundant anyway.  Why not use Vampiric Tutor?

[Fëanor]

@JACO: Hm...BM...yeeeees you could run naturalize or disenchant or any of those things you mentioned, except YOU WOULDNT HAVE THE RIGHT COLOR MANA TO PLAY IT....ahem, sorry.........try seal of cleansing

@?ISuck@MTG?: first of all, it took a hell of a long time to spell your name. second, he said, abyss was pop back when he last played this, so pro-black means pro-abyss, plus if someone is newb enough to play terror/dark banishing, it works there too. Silver knight is also not a win against sligh, its just a real pain in the ass :lol:

@theorigamist: nice ideas you got, however Rob's got the sweetest looking knights youve ever seen. if he does something like you suggest, it means his pretty cards go back into the binder

@Rob: this is only a suggestion, but how would you feel about outing the scrubs (or maybe something else) and putting in forests and land grants? that way if you do have to deal with something unexpected, you have a way to deal with it in green. i say take out scrubs b/c you cant grant for them. You could do that or you could simply throw in some seal of cleansing, which would rid you of blood moon probs. happy playtesting, feel better.

Peace

[HuntedWumpus]

Ohh this looks good. I think some seal of Cleansing might be a very happy thing. As far as big creatures... Rancored White Knight Should deal with that, how big are we talking here?

[firebird365]

You should keep in mind a couple things: first, he has 4 non-Vindicate creature removal, which is enough for most big creatures that he can't handle. Second, he has the 4 Vindicates to use on anything. Big creatures, enchantments, etc. Personally, I think the only thing that should be changed is the creature base... the BB and WW are looking sort of iffy.

[Androstanolone]

I saw someone mention that your threats "weren't very big or intimidating, and not especially plentiful",  I paraphrase.  If this is a problem, exalted angel and phyrexian scuta are good, big threats.  Scuta only has B in his casting cost which makes him easy to cast, the angel has WW but you can morph her until you gain WW.  Both are considerations if you're looking to beef up your creature base.  I'd probably go with scutas since they splash better, but damn angel is scary even 4th turn and causes rather dramatic tempo swings.  Of course, 4cc is probably simply too high anyway without dark rituals.  I see someone already suggested angel, and others are reccomending negator.  Negator was my buddy, my all time fav fatty for a while but now almost everyone likes to run burn.  Even control decks are packin' fire/ice.  So, I'd say go with a less risky albeit 1 turn slower creature like scuta.  

It should also be noted that rancor is only good if you have a creature.  None of your creatures are untargettable, or have >3 toughness, and the one that regenerates doesn't have 1st strike + rancor sekziness.  So yes rancor + first strike is a beast, but your creatures are relatively easy to get rid of and rancor can sit dead in your hand.  For rancor to be maximally effective I think you need at least 15 good rancorable creatures.  That's a minimum.  Fatties aren't entirely necessary, as long as you have enough threats and enough disruption/protection.  Overall analysis, I'd test this with -3 rod, -2 diabolic edict, +4 scuta, +1 rancor.  Good luck.



- Androstan


- Androstan

[Robert the Swordsman]

The deck is playing well.

I use the stupid Knights because...

- first strike is actually much more useful than many make it out to be.
- pro-black isn't bad versus The Abyss (though I know it does not see much play nowadays), it's good versus Shades and Negators (alas, these don't show up very much anymore either). I'd rather sideboard for red than for black (i. e. Absolute Law, COP: Red)
- pro-white is good against Swords. It doesn't need to be good against anything else.
- Rancor + first strike = t3h 4w3s0m3.
- the double-mana cost is rarely a problem thanks to Fetches, though I do have to worry about Wastelands.
- they are relatively powerful creatures with built-in defense mechanisms, and that's an A+ in my book.

...I use them over these creatures because...

- Negator: As great as this guy is (yeah, he is ridiculously good), in the current metagame where Fire/Ice and big green / artifact stuff is everywhere, I'm not so sure I'd feel safe with him.
- Spectral Lynx: Not bad at all, but I prefer the Knights for the reasons seen above. Maybe I'll test it out.
- Exalted Angel / Phyrexian Scuta / Masticore: Too big and vulnerable, not to mention that Masticore isn't a big fan of Null Rod.

...I've tried out running one of each basic, but the fact that I could not fetch a Swamp and, at times, couldn't get the right colors out of them was enough to make me not want to run them. I'll rely on Duress and sideboard for that (which has been added to the original post, by the way).

Thanks.

Thoughts?

[Androstanolone]

Overall I'd say you made the right call, but I still think you should run 4 rancors to make sure all your creatures are really scary.  *ph34r*

[Mephistopheles]

This deck seems kinda...random.

As was pointed out earlier, you're running twelve creatures.  Four are  {B} , four are {W}, and for are  {G}.  That means you'll need {B}, {W}, and all by the second turn, and that is not the epitomy of consistency.

You have only nine one-mana spells, none of which are threats.  Duress is the only first turn cast worth mentioning, and you'll still need to have the black mana for it.

Null Rods again seem random.  Artifact lock components aren't activated, and you are running four artifact mana.  Fish made good use of Null Rod because it ran very little artifact mana (just Mox Sapphire, I believe), so it would be nasty to powered decks, especially combo, which usually needs lots of artifact mana.

Speaking of Combo, how do you fare against it?  Except for Duress, you have no weapons against it, and your clock seems rather slow.  You have absolutely no hope of racing combo, which Sligh and Stompy could at least try.

Sylvan Library/Regrowth/Demonic Tutor: I don't see the point of any of these.  This is an aggressive deck, and thus should be redundant.  All three do nothing more than clog your two-mana slot.  You have no game-breakers to Tutor for or use Regrowth on.

Back to mana curve, you're running nine one-mana spells, twenty-two two mana, and four three-mana.  And the three mana slots are Vindicates.  Maybe it's just my own personal dislike for Vindicates, but they cost three mana, in two different colors, and do nothing more than destroy a single permanent.

Your sideboad tells me that you're worried about red (Sligh?  Or maybe just burn.dec?), and big creatures (Meekstone).  You also use Ground Seal.  Why Ground Seal?  It makes your Regrowth useless, although it is anyway.  There's no reason for you to protect your own graveyard, so could you be worried about Welders?  If that's the case, I can't see any decently built Welder deck that would have any problem beating you anyway.

You do say that it is "somewhat of a hate-deck," which means it would be very metagamed.  However, these forums are not about metagames, so I'll ignore that.

In conclusion, the deck looks inconsistant, slow, and unreliable.  I don't see why you would ever use this over Sligh, Gobbos, WW, or even plain old Stompy.

But I haven't actually played it, so what do I  know?  



I love being able to use mana symbols!  {G}  GO TMD!

[Robert the Swordsman]

First off, I'd like to thank you for all the excellent suggestions you offered that could help me improve on this build; they were plentiful and helpful...

... oh, wait...

...in any case, I'll start here:

You mention Duress being my only one-drop. As true as this is, the card is excellent. Besides this fact, three moxen have a tendency to help make things with a casting cost of two get dropped on turn one.

Null Rod is by no means "random", as you put it. The card is simply astonishing, and, if nothing else, acts as more mana-denial.

You say I have no weapons against combo directly after you state that "Null Rod is nasty versus combo". Strip effects, Null Rods, and Duress; if I'm not mistaken, that's roughly twelve cards that can help me race against combo. Not only that, but after sideboarding, it's a race I definitely have a good chance of winning.

Sylvan Library: Great with Fetches and, while up against combo, I don't have a problem with paying life to get more cards.

Regrowth: Vindicate / Swords / Edict / Wasteland / Duress #5 at the very least, but obviously carries ridiculous potential. I can't see why you think this is bad.

Demonic Tutor: See above, only it's even more versatile; it can grab Necro', the creature appropriate for the situation, Rancor if I'm looking to end it, and various other awesome things. I can't really even begin to see why you'd suggest I don't run it.

Besides the fact that Vindicate comes down on turn two more often than you think, it is an amazing card, especially when four are being run. A truly powerful card.

You tell me Ground Seal is useless, and yet you say I'd have quite a bit of trouble with combo. If I'm not mistaken, the only combo that sees play right now is Dragon, and this is definitely a Dragon-screwing card, even moreso than Tormod's Crypt or Coffin Purge (besides the fact that maindeck Swords / Edict fights Dragon pretty well). 'Slaver is considered a combo as well and is also pretty devastated by this card.

I haven't tested versus MUD of any sort, so I honestly can't say whether or not "any decently built Welder deck wouldn't have a problem beating me", though I'd like to prove you wrong.

If you'll take a closer look into the current top decks, you'll realize that Wasteland and Null Rod are not merely metagame choices. That comment of yours really holds no ground.

As far as I can tell, the deck is fast and tends to do what it sets out to do quite often and quite well.

--

Now that I've covered all the issues you've presented, I'd like to say that I'm never this negative, especially when I give responses to people who took the time to reply to my thread, but I think the way you went about it was pretty terrible; you were condoscending and offered absolutely no help other than "go play something else".

In any case, I'm still open to suggestions.

Thank you very much.

Thoughts?

[Dj Nohayritmo]

I think that my thought is a little out of the box..

Why don't you test Drinker of Sorrow? it's kinda good with Rancor.. well that was just a random thought but you could try.

Sylvan Library: Great with Fetches and, while up against combo, I don't have a problem with paying life to get more cards.

I have an issue with that, it is indeed pretty good agaisnt control, because you have enough time to set it up and go nuts with the drawing if you want, but against combo, you don't have time to set it up, you will see results only the turn after you play it, and you don't have too much time to spare against combo.

well that was my grain of sand

[rvs]

and to add to DJ's post: against Tendrils combo based decks, Sylvan doesn't seem like such a bomb to me, since it'll just make the kill a LOT easier.

[mouth]

I don't see where people get off telling you that you have a poor game against combo. You have 4 Duress, 2 StP, 2 Edict, not to mention the sideboard Seals (Ground and Cleansing).

Your aggro matchup is decent as well, with the afforementioned StP's and Edicts along with Vindicate and sideboard Meekstones. Plus, your creatures either have regeneration or first strike and limited protection.

Your toughest matchups in the aggro department would likely be Goblins and TnT. Goblins because they just have so damn many threats, and they can deal with your creatures via direct damage. TnT because they have a dedicated draw engine, and their creatures are just bigger.

Exalted Angel's been suggested, but I think that you've overlooked the fact that it works in tandem with Sylvan to create a partial draw engine. At least card advantage. Beyond that, it blocks phatty's all day, and can get pretty sick with a Rancor on it. I suppose that's counteracted by it's relatively high CC and the fact that Meekstone shuts it down. Maybe you'd consider trying the Angel in place of Meekstones?

[Dj Nohayritmo]

I don't see where people get off telling you that you have a poor game against combo. You have 4 Duress, 2 StP, 2 Edict, not to mention the sideboard Seals (Ground and Cleansing).

I'm not saying that he has a poor matchup, but he can improve it to make more winneable (is that even a word?)

What I like about this deck is the removal, but I would drop the Diabolic Edicts in favor of Chainer's Edicts. I am aware that you would be sacrificing the possible instant speed of Diabolic, but the possibility to kill two creatures, or go 2-for-1 card advantage, I think outweights that.

I stay with the instant speed, it has too many uses, and besides he has a pretty slim manabase, and if he even gets to the necesary mana he is already losing

[Rapterrant]

Well, why are you only running 2 Swords to Plowshares? You might also consider running Silver Knight, and Savannah Lions. also I didnt see Duress in the deck list.. however I may be blind... I'll get back to you about that one.

[Robert the Swordsman]

The deck is still doing pretty well...

@DjNohayritmo and mouth: I really liked the synergy that Drinker held with Rancor and Exalted held with Sylvan, so I tried out...

-8 Knights
-4 River Boa

+2 Exalted Angel
+4 Drinker of Sorrow
+4 Troll Ascetic
+1 Rancor
+1 Mind Tist

...essentially, I was trying out a "bigger" version of the deck.

It worked somewhat well, but it appeared that two was really the magic number; all three of the creatures I tried out were simply too big to come down fast enough to cause problems for the opponent, so the list still stands as it was prior.

Instant speed removal > big fat re-usable removal, sorry.

@Rapterrant: Savannah Lions is kinda' out-in-the-open, and I believe White Knight is better versus most decks in the current metagame than Silver, and yes, Duress is in the decklist.

Thanks for the comments.

Thoughts?

EDIT: The deck is still how it was originally (meaning I'm still running Knights and Boas, not what is shown above); no changes have actually been made, that was only something I was testing.

[RoadTrippin]

-8 Knights
-4 River Boa

+2 Exalted Angel
+4 Drinker of Sorrow
+4 Troll Ascetic
+1 Rancor
+1 Mind Tist

...essentially, I was trying out a "bigger" version of the deck.

It worked somewhat well, but it appeared that two was really the magic number; all three of the creatures I tried out were simply too big to come down fast enough to cause problems for the opponent, so the list still stands as it was prior.

Why not cut the exalteds and the mind twist as they seem to be the big "slow downers" here..? I think Trolls are where it's at, and Drinkers are also great. Exalteds and Twist don't seem to fit however :/ Another critter to consider might be Arcbound Slith? At least worth giving it a try imo.