Restricting number of restricted cards. Pros/Cons.

[DEA]

Yet even then you have done nothing but quote other people.

i feel very strongly about this too
if you have a point to make then do it yourself and stop asking people to read some article which the author isn't around to defend
this is ****ing irritating

I edited in responses to the false statements many of you have made. They can be found here...

and what the hell is this supposed to mean?

you think WE are the reason you don't get honest civil discussions here?

[jpmeyer]

And if the point is that some day the restricted list will no longer be useful, it's hard to figure out now what we would have to do based on the abilities of cards which do not yet exist.

[GodzillA]

I think Dr. Sylvan's point is by far the most important made in this thread so far. Rancor is making an argument for impending Critical Mass, and yet there is absolutely no data do support the notion. Before Jan. 1, there certainly were tournament results to qualify his argument, but the simple restriction of 2 cards (LED and Burning Wish) have all but eliminated combo from the current meta.

Yes, TPS and Long variants still exist, but tournament results don't lie, and those results show that TPS and Long are essentially non-existent in Top 8's since Jan 1. Being that Dragon was one of the only remaining viable combos, and that it is so easily hated, the meta quickly adapted and has made Dragon almost completely unplayable in the face of all the hate.

It's hard to say it with a straight face, but tournament results show that the fastest, most viable combo deck right now is Food Chain Goblins - an almost entirely aggro deck with a combo element. A deck which can (and does, in each of the 2 Top 8's mentioned) compete with a complete lack of inclusion of the Power 9.

The bottom line is this: right now is absolutely the worst time to be making arguments for the need to radically rewrite the rules under which Type 1 operates, because all relevant data show that there's nothing that needs to be fixed. Budget and aggro decks are making more appearances in Top 8's now than perhaps any other time in Type 1's long history. This is an extremely strong argument against the Critical Mass Theory. Until tournament data shows otherwise, I feel this debate is unnecessary in its entirety.

[defector]

The desire for the sky to fall is alive and well in type 1.  I've waffled back and forth on critical mass, I've stood for the idea of a restricted number of restricted cards and against it.  The second order element of control would surely save the game, right?  But maybe the game doesn't need to be saved.  An uncontested combo deck going offf turn 1 75% of the time means bad news for magic, as soon as one comes along this discussion will have more merit.  Thank you Dr. Sylvan for prividing te Litmus I was looking for in this thread and the others that are coming and going and coming again.  Until the deck that laughs at restriction comes along we have no problem, why do we assume it will?  T1 is fine, inhospitable to budget players, too much fun to not do.  Demonic tutor is better than Black lotus because I have one and can play it   .  As soon as 1.5 get changed, i'll start playing there, until then sfw.  
defector
if we getanother seven sets of legions, this won't even be close to a discussion  

[Pago]

I think we'll all be laughing rather uproariously when the January results are compiled. Here's your sneak preview of decks that T8ed more than once:

Quote:
5 Madness (1,3,4,6,7)
4 Keeper (2,3,7,8)
3 Slavery (3,8,8)
3 Stacker (1,4,8)
3 Hulk Smash (1,5,7)
2 Stax (1,3)
2 TnT (2,8)
2 Oshawa Stompy (aka GPR2)(4,6)
2 Food Chain Goblins (5,5)
2 Landstill (5,6)
2 Goblin Sligh (5,7)

The only combo there is based on Food Chain! Hah!

SOMEONE'S been reading play or draw  

BTW, if you want to make an argument Rancor, stop making stupid ass quotes. Try making up your own argument, instead of using other's peoples quotes to do the work for you. Format your own argument from what you read, not just grabbing and reposting material that might not even be right.

The suggestion that wizards should errata moxen and lotus to read legendary artifact is beyond retarded. Theres no reason to suggest that moxen is technically dominating the format in combo decks, where they need speed the most. As Dr. Sylvan suggested, combo is NOWHERE near close to dominating the metagame right now. The closest thing to combo is budget food chain goblins.

[Xhad]

The only reason to "restrict" restricted cards is so that players, who don't have the money or the desire to buy/sell/trade into Power Nine or other such cards, can be lazy and log into www.deck.dec, make their budget versions of the top decks, and enter tournaments that are now down to their level. If you can't compete in an environment such as Type 1 solely based on the inability to get the Power Nine then you are just a poor player. See here: How to take 1st Place at a Type 1 Tournament with No Power. After checking out the 1st place deck make sure you page down enogh to view the environment he topped in.

All other things being equal, the player with full access to the card pool will beat the player who doesn't.  Yes, you can beat worse players with a suboptimal deck, but you're also handicapped against equal players and even some worse players if said opponents are fully powered.  Just because Tiger Woods could beat me at golf even if he had only like a 1-wood to my entire set of clubs doesn't mean you should go around telling people they shouldn't have an entire set of clubs when playing tournament golf.

Regarding errata on WGD: Why, pray tell, is tacking stupid errata onto a card to make it unplayable any different from banning it?  If a card's going to be banned, I'd rather it be banned on the B&R list, not functionally banned as a footnote in the Oracle where casual players won't know about it.  Also, Wizards has pretty much said they don't errata cards anymore unless they're accidentally worded in such a way that they don't work at all (i.e. Grip of Chaos).

EDIT: Looking at the link, it's probably unfair to write that off as a good player beating bad players, more like a good player making a great metagame deck.  Still, it's undeniable that every Type I deck ever conceived could be improved with at least some power, meaning he's still working harder than he would have to without power cards.

[Mon, Goblin Chief]

I think we'll all be laughing rather uproariously when the January results are compiled. Here's your sneak preview of decks that T8ed more than once:

Quote:
5 Madness (1,3,4,6,7)
4 Keeper (2,3,7,8)
3 Slavery (3,8,8)
3 Stacker (1,4,8)
3 Hulk Smash (1,5,7)
2 Stax (1,3)
2 TnT (2,8)
2 Oshawa Stompy (aka GPR2)(4,6)
2 Food Chain Goblins (5,5)
2 Landstill (5,6)
2 Goblin Sligh (5,7)

The only combo there is based on Food Chain! Hah!

SOMEONE'S been reading play or draw  

BTW, if you want to make an argument Rancor, stop making stupid ass quotes. Try making up your own argument, instead of using other's peoples quotes to do the work for you. Format your own argument from what you read, not just grabbing and reposting material that might not even be right.

The suggestion that wizards should errata moxen and lotus to read legendary artifact is beyond retarded. Theres no reason to suggest that moxen is technically dominating the format in combo decks, where they need speed the most. As Dr. Sylvan suggested, combo is NOWHERE near close to dominating the metagame right now. The closest thing to combo is budget food chain goblins.

Actually, afaik, he not only read those articles, he actually wrote them.

I agree that there is no plausible reason for restricting the restricted cards, looking at tournament results. As long as the format can be kept healthy by simple restrictions, let's stick with them, mkay?

[Dr. Sylvan]

***SPEAK NOW UNTO THE TMD ORACLE***

SOMEONE'S been reading play or draw

TMD ORACLE: "You're devolving into the Japanese!"

Actually, afaik, he not only read those articles, he actually wrote them.

TMD ORACLE: "The quarter pool is like a consolation prize. The person with the lowest quiz grade at the table gets a quarter from everyone else. Normally, this ends up fairly even, since everyone has his good and his bad days. Then Phil comes along. It's impossible to compete with Phil, and he's robbing us blind."

//Yep. I came, I saw, I counted. Yay for Mon knowing I wrote my article!

[Pago]

Thats something to add to my list of "things learned today"