Stax in need of Answers to Aggro

[defector]

Here's My Stax:

Mana Base-25-
Mishra's Workshop X4
Tolarian Academy
Polluted Delta X4
Volcanic Island x4
Underground Sea X2
Badlands X2
Island X1
Lotus Petal
Sol Ring
Mox Jet
Mox Pearl
Mana Vault
Mana Crypt
Grim Monolith

Lock-17-
Tangle Wire X4
Sphere of Resistance X4
Smokestack X4
Chalice of The Void X4
Jester's Cap X1

Red Spells-5-
Goblin Welder X4
Wheel of Fortune

Black Spells-3-
Demonic Tutor
Yawgmoth's Will
Entomb

Blue-6-
Meditate x3
Fabricate x1
Tinker
Fact or Fiction

Artifact Draw-1-
Memory Jar

Victory Condition-3-
Triskellion X1
Karn X2

Sideboard-15-
Red Elemental Blast X4
Blue elemental Blast x4
Tormod's Crypt X3
Blood Moon X3
Open Slot X1

OK, the two cards that don't belong main are Fact or Fiction, and Entomb.  I've been running the Entomb as my 4th Tutor, with the disadvantage that it requires an active Welder.  In my testing so Far, it has proven itself, we'll see after some tourney play.  The other, Fact or fiction, is just the best place holder that I can find for Recall.  It will get cut sooner or later, I hope.  I'm running it in place of Meditate #4 due to the fact that I belive three is the ideal # of meditates, drawing into those before the lock is a problem.  
So, I expect to see Sligh and Oshawa Stompy on the aggro side of things, combo will be rector/tendrils-trix, and Dragon and control will be Tog, Keeper, Slaver.  There will be some probable mirror matches as well.  My biggest trials have been in the aggro match up.  Can anyone give me any advice to improve these match ups.  I feel comfortable against the control/combo environment to the point that the sideboard could be overhauled to improve the aggro match ups.
thank you,
defector

[Smash]

Fire/ice as well as lasting effects like propaganda and chill can be added if you need more help with the aggro matchups. You can even get into stuff like masticore...

Is the 4x BEB just for moon? If it is to help with sligh, I would rather just see chill or such...


Honestly, your maindeck should do pretty good vs aggro (CoTV game 1 is a near autowin vs many decks).  I played stax more back in the last gencon era, when the current stompy wasn't around, so I may not be 100% correct. But, I never really needed anything else to beat aggro. It was mostly

aggro = bye
control = a good fight
combo = the suck

[defector]

You could very well be right, I haven't had as many tests vs aggro as other decks styles.  The BEB is my counterspell for atrifact mutation and Fire/Ice vs my welders.  It's also counterpell/kill vs the damn Monkey.
thank you for your reply,
defector

[JACO]

Smash was pretty accurate in how the deck plays out. Some of the guys in Europe have been running cards like Ensnaring Bridge, Caltrops, Goblin Charbelcher, Powder Keg, Damping Matrix, Serrated Arrows, and/or Fire/Ice to help deal with aggro over the past couple of months.

Looking over your build, I think you should be able to abuse Fire/Ice the most. You can Fire aggro decks and Ice (cycle) against control decks, so it is never a dead draw, unlike some of those other cards. So where do you fit them in? I would cut the Entomb, Fact or Fiction, and the Fabricate for 3x Fire/Ice. You would be losing some of the neat tricks of Entomb and Fabricate, as well as the raw drawing power of Fact or Fiction, but you would be gaining consistency and a way to deal with early threats. If you only want to play 2x Fire/Ice, leave the Fact or Fiction in the deck, but I would recommend running 3x. Good luck.

[defector]

I think I have three fire/ice.  I've got a tourney tomorrow, so we'll see how it goes.  I will miss the fabricate the most I think, hard to say.  i'll post a report on how this deck performs sometime next week.
thanx guys,
defector

[thorme]

First of all, I've had some good luck with Pyrite Spellbombs (instead of Fire/Ice)   They can still cycle in the matchups you don't need them, and they are reusable via Welders.

You state that the aggro you're expecting is Sligh and O. Stompy.  That could be rough.  

For Sligh, Fire / Ice is pretty good stuff, and I would definitely SideBoard those old staples, BottleGnomes!   Sligh really does not like seeing them, particularly if you can recur them.

O. Stompy is the problem.   Neither Fire / Ice nor Spellbombs nor BottleGnomes will help, as they have 4/4s, pumpable 2/2s and 1/1s that grow to 3/3s.  Against that kind of aggro, you'd really love a Pentavus.  He provides limitless blockers against non-tramplers, and a fat 5/5 body against the Arrogant Wurms.  He also is quite abusable w/ Welder.  You're #1 issue will be dealing w/ Null Rod though.  I see this as a tough matchup  (haven't played against it myself though, so this is a guesstimate).

Good luck!

[defector]

The O stompy is a tough match up.  I've faced it twice already in prevous tournements and lost each time, I think i have a pentus, i'll put him in the side if I do.  My strongest game is chalice to 2, which gets null rod and naturalize, but means that REB as a counter is my only solution to the monkey.  We'll see, on the other hand, no one really likes to play against stax either  
thanx,
defector

[FireFall26]

if you are really having trouble with sligh you can try crumbling sanctuary sb

[DavidHernandez]

since you really have very few creatures, you might be able to abuse Pyroclasm along with Fire/Ice.

I tried Serrated Arrows and had good success, until opponents started dropping Null Rods...

also, with only 25 mana sources, i think you are going to have some serious problems dropping what you need (when you need it).  Expect to 1st turn mulligan a lot.

dave.

[Smmenen]

Your lack of full power has seriously negative consequences for a deck like this.  Stax is one of the most difficult decks to properly execute among the upper tiers now that knowledge of the deck is fully dispersed.  Beating aggro generally begins with a) knowing what you need to beat aggro, b) mulliganing hands away that are significantly antithetical to that need, and c) getting good mana.  Without good mana, you cannot acheive your board lock as quickly as Stax needs.

Against Aggro specifically, as opposed to Control or Aggro control, the most important permanent to resolve first is a sphere.  But this is partially contingent upon a) who went first and b) how many permanents your opponent already has.  If your opponent has already dropped multiple permanents you goal is simple: Try to get as many Tangle Wires down as possible, which means you need to abuse draw 7s.  Then you supplement the wires with 1-2 Smokestacks which you ramp up quickly.  If your opponent has not dropped many perms, then Spheres are more powerful and you can use them to slow them down and eventually get around to acheiving your hard lock.  I've played Stax many, many, many times so I hope that helped you out.

Steve Menendian

[Toad]

If the only Aggro decks you fear are Sligh and Oshawa Stompy (ie no tubbies decks), you can consider SBed Terrors. I've never played with them because I don't feel I need that to deal with fast Aggro (as Smmenen said, a good knowledge of your deck and on how to deal with Aggro is crucial here), but It seems to be interesting. Terminate is more versatile but requires both Red and Black which can be hard against decks that pack a full set of Wastelands.

That being said, you should cut Entomb and Fact or Fiction for Fire/Ice. These wreck Sligh, can deal with Welders and Shamans, and you can still Ice a fattie against O'Stompy, turning it into a cantripping life gain.

I don't understand why you are running 4 Blue Elemental Blasts in your sideboard. If It's for Sligh, then Fire/Ice is better. If it's for Dragon, then add a fourth Tormod's Crypt in your sideboard before you use these. Mind Twist is a nice SB card against Combo.

[DEA]

actually steve raised a very good point
your best hope to to ramp up tanglewires and get an active smokestack in play
follow that with meditates and you should have them

another thing about meditate is that when the situation looks desperate, you can meditate to draw into answers
2 tanglewires is hard to break out of when you're losing stuff each turn
i've won at 2 life by popping out 2 tanglewires with an active smokestack and a time vault out
once i cleared them of permanents, i took my next turn to drop trinisphere :lol:

[mtgmooner]

i think the new card Trinisphere can be looked at for a spot here potentially as well.  

I admit due to the lack of power it makes the negative almost as great to you, but it can definetly by you enough time to set-up the lock against an aggro deck when you have workshops on the board...

[Razvan]

Oshawa Stompy has a couple of very key weaknesses against Stax.

1) Chalice of the Void for 2. Killing Null Rod, Ground Seal, Wild Mongrel, Survival, Naturalize, etc...

2) Smokestack. Not as much a weakness, but as your solution. It can kill Troll Ascetic and Null Rod primarily.

3) Tange Wire. The strong anti-aggro solution.

Entomb is a nice idea, incidentally. Very well suggested.

Fire/Ice, of course, will still be a staple card, against aggro. Use it well.

[dicemanx]

The battle between O.Stompy and Stax/wMUD comes down to two key cards:

1) Null Rod
2) Survival (to chain out 4 Rootwallas asap)

Stax/wMUD will have an excellent chance if it can set a Chalice for two early, but wise Stompy players will change from Naturalize to Oxidize to get around this potential problem.

Stax/wMUD can help its cause if they use Ensnaring Bridge. With the unkillable Welder you can lock out Stompy, as long as they don't see Oxidizes and Ground Seals early. Also, if their Null Rod cramps your mana base, then Bridge won't help you. But then again, nothing will, so you just have to hope and pray that you either get a quick Smokestack down before they find Null Rod or lock them out with Trinisphere before they can get going.



All other cards like Fire/Ice, Powder Keg, Serrated Arrows are a waste of time, unless you're expecting other forms of aggro.

[Smmenen]

I disagree with both of you.  

The key card in the matchup is actually Trinisphere.  Trinisphere shuts off Rootwallas.  Tangle Wire and Smokestack are generally too slow to stop the Survival + Rootwalla engine unless you have someway to shut that stuff off, OR unless you randomly play Karn.

Steve

[dicemanx]

Steve, I think that is stating the obvious - getting Trinisphere down quickly (especially trun 1) is key in a lot of match-ups. At that point, it almost doesn't really matter what deck you're facing. In any case, Trinisphere can pre-empt the two cards that are to be feared: a quick Survival and/or Null Rod.  
 
So the question becomes: is there another option, aside from those 4 Spheres, that would help out in the match-up.

[Smmenen]

Yes, what you said.  But I thought it worth mentioning that a) i've tested the matchup quite a bit and b) trinisphere is key becuase it shuts down the Survival + Rootwalla plan, which is Big O's best shot.

Steve

[dicemanx]

I've in turn tested O.Stompy vs wMUD quite heavily, and I noticed that it's usually a slaughterfest for one side without too many "swingy" type games. The match-up is about 50/50, and usually comes down to whether Stompy can establish a quick Null Rod or Survival before getting shut out by Sphere(s) or Smokestack. Post SB the Bridges can buy time until you get either a Chalice out for one (if they run Oxidize), or more typically for two to stop Naturalize and/or Ground Seal.

Honestly, I wouldn't want to be on either side of this match-up. It's scary for both sides.

[Cpkrug]

I have been playtesting with trinisphere a bit and in my build i am using three main deck and one in the side.  Is this the ideal way to go or should i have more or less main?  In my area i see it all, from combo to aggro, land D to stax mirror.  Thanks

[dicemanx]

Trinisphere is an automatic 4-of if you are playing first. You want to maximize the chances of seeing it first turn. I'd run all four of them MD because I'd expect to be playing 1st half the time in game 1. Post SB, if you're going second, you might take some or all out depending on what you're facing.

[Aeneas]

If you are hard pressed by O Stompy's Null Rods and by their larger creatures that Fire/Ice cannot handle, I would recommend Ensnaring Bridge.  It can be dropped as quickly as nearly any other solution to O Stompy, it shrugs off Null Rods, and it shuts off their most threatening creatures until they can find removal.  Also, it is not hurt by Ground Seal the way Pentavus, Triskelion, and Bottle Gnomes are.

[Razvan]

Smokestack is the true ace in the hole for this match-up, I find. If you ramp up to 4-land mana, you can still buy time by dropping a smokestack and letting counters accumulate, while killing everything. At some point, Oshawa Stompy's low mana count will come back and hurt it severely, whereas Stax, with 28 or so mana sources, can fairly easily recover.

At least that's what I think. Trinisphere and Chalice are good to lock them, but if they have the lock down, Smokestack is your only hope.