[Single Card Discussion] Mystical Tutor

[Eastman]

A few nights ago, talking to Smmenen, he brought up how much he had disliked mystical tutor in Hulk lately. I couldn't help but agree as I'd been feeling the same way.


The next day I was playtesting in Hadley when Bowers held up a mystical tutor and said (I forget exactly what) something maligning the card.


Just now I was reading the awful article up on StarCity with the living wish rector deck. The author of that article felt necessary to make a parenthetical reference after Mystical Tutor in his list that he really wanted something else for the slot.


Suffice it to say that top players across the country have independently begun questioning the card. Is it time to stop including it in decks automatically? Should Mystical Tutor leave the proud team of Demonic, Ancestral, Time Walk, and Yawg Will that make up the 'broken autoplays' ?

We know the weakness, it's card disadvantage. This is often outweighed by the powerful cards you fetch with it. Forget going in for Ancestral, Mystical Tutor fetches Yawgmoth's Will.

But is Yawg Will's brokenness enough to warrant playing Mystical?

Discuss!

[ill_Dawg]

Mystical tutor is really only good in control when you either want to pump a dryad or have future sight in play.  This makes it seem like a win-more card.

Mystical tutor is really only good in combo when you really need to up your storm count and already have a way to draw the card you tutor for, even in combo it is only really good when you are unable or unwilling to run Lim-Dul's vault, which is usually just better.  It's always just sort of unsatisfying, and it usually eats up mana on my upkeep in TPS so that I can draw into something that might resolve on my main phase.  It has always had horrible synergey with Xantid Swarm, since it is more of an EOT or upheep effect than a main phase effect that can be protected by Swarm.

Generally, it is just one of those cards that I just don't like seeing in anything.  That's just me, though.  My opinions could be somewhat influenced by the fact that it is hard as hell to find a pimp version this freaking card, and I have stacks of mundane ones clogging up my trade binder.

As always, completely disregard my statements on the place of this card in control since I never play control.  I'm one of those bad players that plays with draw-7's, and I love using memory jar to get rid of the card that my opponant has told me they really need.  Revealing the card you want to your opponant before you have a chance to put it in your hand?  I love it when the control player does that.  It's always nice to know what a control player has in their hand, and what is missing from it.

Hope this helps,

-=ADAM=-

[Kowal]

Just a quick post before I head on off to clean this dump--

Keeper's place is as a control deck that can be broken.  Hulk may or may not be taking its place in this department, but as long as one can go grab Yawgmoth's Will and just win, Mystical will be an auto-include.  Whether or not Hulk players need the extra tutorage with all the draw they utilize is no concern of mine.

[Kerz]

Here is my thread I started at the old TMD:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11772

There is a lot of insight on this topic there, although it was a few months ago.

I'm not going to say the obvious (Mystical tutor can get X, X, X, and YAWGMOTH's WILL!!!!!!!!!!)

The card advantage can hurt, but it usually doesn't effect the game that much. The spells it fetches are powerful enough to neglect it, in my opinion.

I play control near exclusively, and I wouldn't consider seriously cutting it. In short...

But is Yawg Will's brokenness enough to warrant playing Mystical?

Yes. In Hulk, at least. In Keeper, it isnt as "I win now", but on the flip side, you can get all of Keeper's bombs with it.

[MaxxMatt]

I don't think that I could swap this card with a Better or at least Equal 1cc Spell that would  grab me anything in my deck ( Keeper ). in my mind, it is compared to a beatiful box where you can find Drawers, Counters, Winners, Solutions...

But, talking about Hulk's player and his playing strategy around Mystical tutor,  I noticed that he NEED Intuitioning faster than my opponent into D.A. vs. Control or into AK Vs. Anything Else. How many ways I have to do this job on my first or second turn? They aren't a lot or at least, there aren't a lot of  ways to do it without losing a bit more compared with a so cheap spell that in other situation could exchange itself for 80% of other cards in the deck.

Comparing strategies talking about Control Decks, Keeper is usually Mistycal for Ancestrall or FoF or Skeletal or Decree and  all the other choices are a not so hot only because they are simmetricals ( 1 card lost, 1 card acquired ).

Hulk has more Non Simmetrical targets that usually could improve, in a better and cheaper ways, your hand size after having mistycally tutored for one of them. You could have tutoed for a spell that maybe could't resolve, but at least with Mistycal tutor you could have been able to do it in you first turn and it is one of the ways to get around a Drain+FoW wall of counters.

I'm sure that Lim Duul's Vault is an Unabused Tutor, but in my opinion it should be considered a Winning Spell to resolve when you have acquired a strong hand and board position from you first 2 or 3 turns. I'm testing it maindeck in my Hulk Build and it fits perfectly the redundant and strong strategy of this deck BUT WITH Mystical Tutor in it and not substituting it.
I swapped Merchant Scroll for it and I haven't missed it at all.
My test build is really close to Smemmen's one but with only a bit different mana base, this tutor ( for one fo his 4 Duress ) and a different sideboard

A point that should not be ignored and that usually help a lot recovering from bad positions is the effect that Mystical have after an Heavy discard effects ( maybe followed by a Counter War that could force each other to an heavy topdeck. During the early game grab Ancestral, in the mid-game grab AK and in the late game grab your Winner.. Y.Will.
 
<3


PS. I totally agree about the lack of "Pimpness" of Mystical Tutor in decks that usually are all "Shining Bright" or "Indecifrable"  ..

[Zherbus]

Quick Note:

While I'm with those who would cut it from Tog, it's a necessary evil in Keeper. That is until Yawgmoth's Will, Balance, Decree, and Mind Twist are all cut.

[jpmeyer]

It's too important in Tog for fetching Time Walk and Will.  Time Walk is so important in Tog that you really need that extra way to find one.

[Eastman]

Quick Note:

While I'm with those who would cut it from Tog, it's a necessary evil in Keeper. That is until Yawgmoth's Will, Balance, Decree, and Mind Twist are all cut.

I didn't post my actual thoughts in the original thread because I wnated to just see where disucssion went.

Zherbus' thoughts are identical to mine. Tog has better choices (I'd run a 3rd Intuition in builds running Deep Anal) but Keeper, well... Keeper just has too many targets.

[Gabethebabe]

In B2B Hulk Mystical is easily replaced with vamp, because vamp can get you B2B (and Tog and Lotus and ...) as well as all the cards that Mystical can get, at the price of 2 life and unpitchability to FoW.

[jpmeyer]

Actually, in Tog decks that run B2B the casting cost is a lot more of a problem since you won't necessarily have been fetching out Underground Seas.

[Grand Inquisitor]

My thoughts on Mystical Tutor are similar to MaxxMatt's & Kerz.  I've tried in four color versions of GAT to squeeze it out for more utility or card draw.  However, I kept finding that when I was under pressure or needed to combo out faster that, without it, I ended up using so many resources to find the cards I needed.

Even in Hulk, it fills a niche roll that isn't matched by Intuition.  Vampiric is an interesting idea to substitute in Hulk, but Mystical is much more convenient in that it pitches, and most of all doesn't require a black source.

I'm as big a fan as anyone about Lim Dul's Vault.  However, with Slaver becoming so prevalent I had to cut it, even from my sideboard.

[DavidHernandez]

I agree that Mystical cannot be cut from certain decks.  It's also important to look at when Mystical (and V.Tutor) are NOT card 'disadvantage', specifically in the case of Future Sight.

A Keeper or GAT or <<insert deck here>> build using Future Sight can take immediate advantage of these cards.

Dave.

[Smmenen]

You'll notice that my Twister deck does not have a Mystical.  I hate that card.

Steve

[Grand Inquisitor]

I agree that Mystical cannot be cut from certain decks. It's also important to look at when Mystical (and V.Tutor) are NOT card 'disadvantage', specifically in the case of Future Sight.

A Keeper or GAT or <<insert deck here>> build using Future Sight can take immediate advantage of these cards.

In spite of my respect for Future Sight (and DavidHernandez) I don't think this should really be part of the argument, since it means that you've resolved a 5cc spell during your main phase.  This means that you've got a sizable advantage already, or have exhausted your opponents defenses with other business spells.

The fact that Future Sights effect should ensure victory against anything except combo, makes it irrelevant when trying to discuss mystical tutor on its own.  Obviously because its a tutor, much of this discussion will circle around what it will target, but Future Sight is not on this list, and even if it were, the effect is retro-active.

[The Atog Lord]

In many respects, Mystical Tutor’s power in a control deck is a function of the metagame. In my experience, Mystical is not amazing in control  on control matches in which both decks support heavy counter elements. The ability of a counter deck to use a single card to counteract the two card investment which has been placed into the card fetched by the tutor is a strong disadvantage. For example, if I use Mystical to fetch Yawgmoth’s Will and then you Mana Drain it, you’ve just gained card advantage by stopping a spell in which I’ve invested two cards.

On the other hand, in a control deck facing an aggro deck, the Mystical becomes considerably stronger because the spell being fetched by it will almost certainly resolve. For example, against aggro, I’m reasonable certain that the balance I fetch will resolve, and net me more card advantage than I’d have to invest in finding it. Therefore, in many ways, the power of Mystical in control is a matter of how much counter magic is in the metagame.

As for combo, Mystical again is strong against aggro decks and not as powerful against control decks. Again aggro, combo can use Mystical to fetch a game-ending spell; however – and I know that I’m over generalizing here – combo tends to have a decent game against aggro decks anyways. So, while Mystical is good against aggro in a combo deck, it may well be overkill.

As for the Mystical in a combo deck against control, consider how combo tends to deal with control decks. Either the combo deck throws out more threats than the control deck can deal with – such as playing a Timetwister once the control deck is out of counters; or the combo deck plays more threats in a single turn than the control deck can handle – casting that Timetwister once the control deck has tapped out. In either instance, is the Mystical useful? In both cases, Mystical is not useful because it itself is not a threat; it is a spell which control can allow to resolve without fear for what it would fetch. This may have been different in the era of Desire decks in which it would fetch uncounterable threats, but that era has (mostly) passed. Further, the one-turn delay is especially hurtful in what is so often a tempo-dominated match.

Finally, I have not been running the card at all in control-slavery, nor have I ever missed it.

[Eastman]

I think that the sheer versatility of the card in keeper warrants its continued inclusion. As far as other decks, I don't see the need.

[DavidHernandez]

I've been looking to add a card to a deck that Tony Soto and i have designed, but we weren't sure what to cut.  The weakest of everything seemed to be the Mystical Tutor, which we finally replaced last night with a different card.

Having played this game for so many years, there are some cards that almost automatically go into a deck, and to remove them seems somewhat sacrilegious.  For me, Mystical falls into this category.  Braingeyser and Stroke of Genius were two others.

After replacing the Mystical, I find that the deck we're building runs better (that is, I tend to have what I am looking for) and I don't miss the Tutor.

My point is, I found it difficult to decide on removing Mystical Tutor because I had conditioned myself to believe that it was a "must play" card.  I no longer look at it that way, but it makes me question what other cards I hold as "required" that probably aren't.

dave.

[Matt]

I no longer look at it that way, but it makes me question what other cards I hold as "required" that probably aren't.

Library of Alexandria.

[Kowal]

Holy mother of fucking sanity.  Yes, brilliant, let's cut the card that just wins if left alone.  Even if it's not, the tempo shift of forcing your opponent to waste it just so it can replace itself is huge.  Cutting it in Hulk or Keeper are both incredibly bad for your chances of winning, especially against other blue spells.

But to keep the topic on-topic.

Mystical is still an incredible card, and without knowing what this mystery deck David Hernandez has assembled is, we can't conclude anything from his input.  Care to explain, Dave?

[DavidHernandez]

I'll be playing it for the first time tomorrow (Monday) night. What we're doing is taking the concepts of an established deck and trying to make it something else.  I'll post right after i go 0-0-5.  

I'll PM you the list right now, since you're interested, though I don't really think anyone needs to see it to get my point that, sometimes, we hold a card to be sacred when in fact it's time is past.

I think Mystical is still required in Keeper because it can tutor-up just about anything important, but after having made changes to my own decks, and reading what others have posted in this topic, I'm going to be replacing Mystical with 3rd-ofs, 4th-ofs, or Cunning Wishes in more decks and see how it goes.

Edit on 4-7-2004: I played GAT on Monday the 5th and was undefeated.  I ran Mystical, Vampiric, Demonic, and Merchant Scroll.  The ability to go get what I needed with Mystical was game-breaking.  A couple of times, I mystical'd for Force of Will, and was able to protect Dryad/Tog to finish games.  While Mystical may not belong in every deck, I retract my comment that it's "...time is over..."

It is situational.

Dave.