[Deck Discussion] The Solution

[mtg_player_2004]

Once again, I was running ideas through my head.  I was toying with the idea of the 12 creature rule deck, and trying to ignore red.
Well, anyways, for those of you who go to tournaments, you usually run across at least one rogueish deck with decent creatures and some utility, but they usually lack two things: a smart player, and enough removal.  
The biggest thing about these are there are 3 colors for them (usually) (I mean 3 colors that work, not a 3 color deck).  I try to avoid red and blue, as red turns into stax or mud or sligh, and blue counters aren't what I'm looking for.  So that leaves white, black and green.  With StPs and disenchants, it can give TnT or similar decks a run for its money.  Duress and negators are good against combo or control, and of course savannah lions, but the 3rd creature type was hard for me to chose.  I finally broke down and chose Phyrexian War Beast for lack of innovation.

4 Savannah Lions
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian War Beast

Next was utility, where I think this deck shines more than most rogueish or 12 creature decks.  Being BW gives vindicate, which I definetly wanted to include.  Originally I ran Diabolic Edicts (2 and 2 kegs) but I have been using kegs lately for mox control.

4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Powder Keg
4 Duress

And finally the single copies, included for mostly obvious reasons.

1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Mind Twist
1 Balance
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Disenchant (tutor target if necessary)

So, in the end, this is what the deck looks like

Creatures (12)
4 Savannah Lions
4 Phyrexian Negator
4 Phyrexian War Beast

Utility (16)
4 Vindicate
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Powder Keg
4 Duress

Singles (6)
1 Disenchant
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Balance
1 Mind Twist
1 Yawgmoth's Will

Mana (26)
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Dark Ritual
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Sol Ring
1 Strip Mine

Sideboard (15)
4 Diabolical Edict
3 Disenchant
3 Coffin Purge
3 Funeral Charm
1 Worship
1 Masticore

[Zherbus]

What's this supposed to beat? It's old PT Junk without green (though you have Savannahs over Scrublands), with Kegs instead of Deeds. I mention this only because it's been done quite a few times and there are two reasons why it doesn't work against the higher tier decks:

1) There is no fuel, therefore no late game.

2) The threats, as efficient as they may be, don't give it fast enough of an early game (which would could be worked around if item #1 was remedied - and vice versa).

[kirdape3]

I honestly have no idea what this is supposed to beat.  You have creatures that don't survive very well or are not easily replaced, thereby making it bad at aggression.  Your control strategies are inferior since you lack any means of protecting your threats nor drawing into new ones - let alone stopping their threats from becoming active or damaging.

In short, this deck is absolutely a jumble and needs a focus in the metagame.

[mtg_player_2004]

I thought the creatures were fast kill.  4 Attacks with Negator or 4 attacks with 1 lion + 1 beast.  The control is for after it hits the board, as is anything without counterspells.  It does have some lock (5 wastelands, vindicate, duress), but I don't know how to get draw out of these cards.  Well, I would appreciate some suggestions, and I think you are underrating this personally, so if you want to play apprentice give me a time and your IP please.

[theorigamist]

If you guys actually play on Apprentice, could you please post the game logs?  I would love to see them.

mtg_player_2004, four attacks is at best a turn 5 kill, which is not that fast.  Savannah Lions is meant for a weenie deck, which this is not.  Phyrexian Warbeast is meant for Pox, which this is not.  5 Strips, Vindicates and Duresses are not a lock.  They are a speedbump.  And you don't have the speed to take advantage of the extra tempo.  This decklist looks very tossed-together and untested and random.  This should probably be in a different forum.

[Zherbus]

I thought the creatures were fast kill.  4 Attacks with Negator or 4 attacks with 1 lion + 1 beast.  The control is for after it hits the board, as is anything without counterspells.  It does have some lock (5 wastelands, vindicate, duress), but I don't know how to get draw out of these cards.  Well, I would appreciate some suggestions, and I think you are underrating this personally, so if you want to play apprentice give me a time and your IP please.

Who decides whether a deck is good based on (backwash) Apprentice?

It's easy to play around you're disruption with Tog since they have Brainstorm to protect spells from your low discard amount and card draw to draw into two counters for every one of your removal spells. Not to mention that Tog eats every one of your critters without batting an eye in combat.

Your kill isn't fast enough to beat combo, and if combo can stand with control decks packing hate, it can certainly get past the weak disruption you're packing.

Your deck has very inefficient ways of dealing with Stax and/or Slaver. You're likely to be exhausted on resources before they lock you out because while you have the solutions in your deck, you have almost no way to gain card advantage.

Let me re-enforce this: While you have solutions in the deck, you have next no nothing that gains card advantage. You can't trade one for one all day without having some way to replenish your resources or win before you run out of answers (5 turns for a deck like this is too slow).

There is your reasoning, and I'm not sure how much more basic I can get without being as complete at the same time.

[Redman]

I used to run a deck similar to this, however, as only black and white, I don't beleive it can succeed.  Blue really makes (or made) the deck, becasue it gives you a couple of very important things: card drawing, Meddling Mage, and to some extent Force of Will and Serendib Efreet (Though Dibs aren't what they used to be; hell they weren't what they used to be in 2001). Even with the blue,  the concept is somewhat iffy. Here's the decklist I ran about this time last year (and its age shows):

//Mana
      4 City of Brass
      4 Underground Sea
      4 Tundra
      4 Scrubland
      4 Wasteland
      1 Strip Mine
      1 Sol Ring
      1 Mox Sapphire
      1 Mox Pearl
      1 Mox Jet
      1 Black Lotus
//Fun
      1 Yawgmoth's Will
      1 Fact or Fiction
      1 Demonic Tutor
      1 Skeletal Scrying
      1 Mind Twist
      1 Time Walk
      1 Ancestral Recall
//Games
      3 Psionic Blast
      4 Duress
      4 Vindicate
//Someone losing an eye
      2 Masticore
      3 Phyrexian Negator
      3 Serendib Efreet
      4 Meddling Mage
      4 Savannah Lions

SB:  1 Masticore
SB:  1 Balance
SB:  3 Crystalline Sliver
SB:  1 Aura Fracture
SB:  2 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  3 Samite Ministration
SB:  4 Swords to Plowshares

I played the deck (it was called "Clubber Lang," if you want to do a search) to a Top 4 a T1ToC 6, and there should be a few reports in the archives here, along with an old thread:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11260

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12065



As fun as Vindicate is, it is very slow, and is horrible if Misdirections are floating around.

I don't think Balance belongs here, except as a sideboard option.

This deck unfortunately sucks against omnipresent bad red decks, as you'll notice from the 14 cards in the side devoted to that matchup.

Vampiric Tutor doesn't belong here, both from the life loss, and (more importantly) from the tempo loss. Top of the deck tutors really stink in aggro decks, especially those that can't draw cards well.

I do think it might be worth toying with this deck a little nowadays, as there were a few cards that looked like they might be helpful in the newest sets. Chalice of the Void and Trinishpere were things I thought of off the top of my head, perhaps there are a few others.

Lastly, if you really want to go with a B/W creature deck, the most successful one was a white weenie variant (so already you can tell just how successful it was) that used that cleric that reduces mana costs by BW. There is also no reason to play Lions when black already has Sarcomancy and Carnophage.
In fact, now that I think about it, your deck ends up looking a lot like old Suicide Black, but with Powder Kegs instead of Null Rods and 4 removal spells instead of additional discard, one of which is extremely clunky, and the other of which hurts your cause by giving the other player life.  Edict can serve pretty much the same fucntion.