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Author Topic: [Deck Theory] My Keeper  (Read 4042 times)
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« on: March 23, 2004, 10:45:40 am »

I'm listing this as theory and not discussion because while I'd love to get feedback on specific card choices I've made, I'm most interested in getting thoughts on where the Keeper archetype is going right now.  Since Keeper is a metagame deck, let's assume for this thread that you play somewhere in the northeast and see Control Slaver, Green, Tog, Control, and Control Slaver.  But, since tournaments around here have high turnouts, the first few rounds can be wide open.

Right now, the two Keeper decks around here are Eastman's Chains:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14986

and Zherbus' latest version:
http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=16009&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I don't expect either of those decklists to remain 100% accurate for too long, but the critical distinction here is how both those decks are built and what they try to do.  

Eastman's deck sacrifices the ability to put cards in hand but focuses on cycling through the deck to increase card quality.  It also has a slightly stronger counter base.  Obviously, Chains are huge in a lot of matches around here as well.  Some weaknesses include a slightly higher average casting cost and the notable difference between having Brainstorm and Impulse in your opening hand.  Also, cards like Stifle and Isochron Scepter in the maindeck (although I understand the rationale in having Scepter in there) can sometimes be dead.

Zherbus' deck is probably more convential in most people's eyes.  Exalted Angel adds a clock that, in my experience, Keeper really needs.  Plus, none of his win conditions are a good Mana Drain target for Slavery or Tog, which is huge.  This deck has a decent draw engine, assuming that Hulk's engine is the benchmark, and the greater reliance on Cunning Wish allows the tutor chain to find bombs.  Of course, that's also a problem if the other deck can keep the Wish from resolving or if they're fast enough that the deck (with 26 mana sources) can use the Wish reliably.

And now for the most interesting part of the thread, my own deck:

4x Mana Drain
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
2x Cunning Wish
2x Impulse
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Time Walk
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Fact or Fiction

2x Skeletal Scrying
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Mind Twist

2x Decree of Justice
2x Exalted Angel
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Balance

1x Gorilla Shaman

1x Fire/Ice

6x SoLoMox

4x Polluted Delta
3x Tundra
3x Underground Sea
2x Volcanic Island
1x City of Brass
1x Island
1x Library of Alexandria
4x Wasteland
1x Strip Mine

//sideboard//
2x Coffin Purge
1x Perish
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Blue Elemental Blast
1x Stifle
2x Rack and Ruin
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Disenchant
1x Swords to Plowshares
2x Open (was Damping Matrix, but it looks like that's on the way out)

Clearly, this bears a lot more similarity to Zherbus' deck than Eastman's.  I have Impulse in there because I want to find answers and while Cunning Wish->Vampiric Tutor->Answer is strong (and this deck can obviously do that), sometimes it's better to dig and get a card in-hand.  In essence, I'm trying to take the best problem-solving aspects of both decks and eliminate dead cards from just about any matchup.

Perish, I suppose deserves a comment.  In playtesting Big O and Madness, I've found that winning games relies on: a) getting Sword to Plowshares and Stifles often b) casting Balance or c) getting the mana to morph angel.  I'm down to 1 Stifle, so that's a weaker option.  Balance is nice, but vs. these decks it kills my hand and manabase.  Getting the {W}{W} in a deck running fetchlands vs. Root Maze and Wasteland is tough in the early game.  Hibernation buys time but is better in other decks.  Acid Rain might be worth testing, but it's not really an answer to threats on the board.  There was a lot of green in Newington and Perish actually served me pretty well.
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« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2004, 11:45:56 am »

Re: Perish, try Hibernation and +1 Cunning Wish main deck instead. I also thought I needed it to control Big O, but I've found that Hibernation is more than enough. It's available game 1, and gives you another shot at countering SotF, as well as retarding their mana production by sending vineyard back to the hand - and doing it off their own vineyard mana is classy. Just watch those mongrels with both spells - I've been killed by a 14/14 mongrel before =/.

Can't say I've ever been a fan of impulse in Keeper - I always seem to want to keep 2, 3 or even all of the cards - but YMMV.
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« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2004, 11:51:52 am »

Andrew, a big thing I think you want to reconsider is a 2nd Maindeck Shaman. I really think Slaver forces us to play 2.

...and HOLY HELL! I was totally going to add 2 Perish! I didn't because I think Angel plus not getting land-fucked can beat Stompy and Madness. Smile
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« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2004, 12:44:04 pm »

In terms of theory about Keeper, I've noticed that what it comes down to is that Keeper can't be the best blue deck. Hulk is way better at abusing blue as a base color. What Keeper does is maximize abuse of white and red. (It can't really claim to be maximizing black without using either Duress or Tog.) In this light, I'd wonder if it's possible to shift to even more of these colors. Has anyone tested more than two Exalted Angels?
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« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2004, 12:59:41 pm »

----ChainsKeeper or NonChainsKeeper
I think that a NoChainKeeper version is superior (or at least less Metagame Dependent ) because it can let you do the only thing that always win games in magic: Draw Cards.

During my test of Eastman's Keeper, I was forced to mulligan more than my usual version of Keeper and not always the silver bullets resolve me the game or the match them selves. And, nost of all, if the don't resolve, I have NO WAY to recover over Impulsing over and over my 1-for-1 spells.

Of course,the Eastman deck has a great card quality but IMHO it is a bit more fragile than the "Normal" keeper for the same reason.

If the meta is focused around 2 or 3 archetips that can be smashed more consistently with Eastman's Keeper, then I would take it wih me and play it of course.
If I expect some mixed, unpredictable metagame ( in less words.. a REAL one... ) and a larger variety of decks, I'm sure that Zherbus's one would perform better.

Eastman realized this deck for a Standstill-'Tog-Bazaar-based metagame and it works perfectly in it. maybe in a different meta he would have found more difficulties on performing so well with ChainsKeeper


---Note: Against BigO
IMHO, even if producing an istant that can get rid of all the "Green Creatures" is more focused and "ready to use" than a Crazy Angel that as the only Cons on being a Creature-like Spell, i think that Exalted can gave you the Board control and the Life points control that until now lacked in this deck.


Even if Zherbus take out his CoP:red some weeks ago, I didn't feel confident on going to a tourney XYZ and not playing it for an obviuos reason:
I can't Win ( unless broken shits happened ) against a well played MonoRed --> So I can't be sure of Top8 only for a random loss --> So, I wasted an ENTIRE DAY on playing with Cards instead of having good sex and without winning any P9 ONLY because Budget Players still exists in the real world ( .. and we have NO proxy tourney of course... )

Angel instead, can fill the gap and I cut without any problem Cop:Red after having added 2-4 Exalted between Maindeck and Sideboard.


Non green Aggro, Tnt and Monobrown can be scared by a single Exalted and any single spell I can think ( pernicious Deed maybe is the only one but ... Green has gone for now.. ) against any Aggro, Aggro-Control decks haven't a so positive impact in the game as Exalted always have.

if their creatures sits down without attacking, I'll survive enough to win
if their creatures attacks I can eat a creature any turn and gain 4 life as special gift  for having crushed one of opponent's pets.

2 month's ago Combo was too much frequent to let me guarantee maindeck spot for a creature as Exalted, but, if "Smmemen would not broke the metagame again", I feel very confortable with my Angels and Soldiers. Smile

Because WW is really hard to obtain I think that mabe my lone Island could be swapped for the 4th Tundra. Thinking about other possibilities, I think that adding a land and having 27 mana and 61 cards would not be that bad .

<2 cents


Dr. Sylvan wrote with me.
I have 2 Exalted in the Maindeck and 2 Exalted in the Side. The ones in the side shifted from day to day with 2D.A. or 2 Damping MAtirx or 2 Aura Fracture and so on..

If my meta would be less Combo and Control and a bit more AggroControl  i think that 4 should be a good number.
 It win games agaisnt: TnT, Any Aggro bad or good doesn't count,  Monobrown, L&S,
It isn't stellar agaisnt other Keepers game 1 but it is better than Decree during game 2 and 3.
It is really good against Tog, because every attack is an "AK for 2" that you can let him resolve...
It is shit against Dragon and Storm Based Decks, because they win faster than you.

Against the latter categories I think that anyone playing Keeper with too many Stp, Disenchant,Angels,Soldiers, would have feeled that bad sense of dejavu of being the wrong player who is playing the wrong deck that can produce ONLY white cards forcing you to lose as if you are playing the worst of the Parfait.dec Smile
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« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2004, 01:33:39 pm »

@LOA

In terms of theory and evolution, this what I believe.  

I think that decks should be looked at from 2 perspectives within strategy.  That is to say that if I have a deck with a strategy, in order for me to gage if that strategy is viable it must be seen from 2 ways.  

A. What is this strategy within the metagame?

B. What is this strategy NOT in the metageame?

For B, another way of saying that is, If my opponent lets me do what ever I want, what would that be?  For most decks this is very clear - Hulk, berserk a Tog, Slaver- slave and get the kill.  But for Keeper, there really isn't an answer for B and that is where I think it needs improvement.  Before it was simply play Morphling and win.  But now with the format being so fast and varied, that is not a viable strategy.  Zherbus gave a new answer for B with mana denial, but even that is not always good because of mono-colored aggro and the inherent lack of consistency.  This is where Keeper has the most problems because when Keeper has the chance to capitalize on its opponent's problems, it doesn't.  Decks with the forementioned B strategy carry this out when they have the opening or are the aggressor.  Keeper gives your opponent time because it has no general strategy B, its totally reactive.  Think about it, if your opponent does nothing, so does Keeper.  

Zherbus's newest build is much closer to answering this and when a new more general and proactive strategy is found which has a good general application for question B, keeper I think, will be tier 1 again.
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« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2004, 01:43:29 pm »

My big question has been, how does one successfully pilot keeper say in a place where the metagame is too mixed/unclear, or where it is too large to succesfully have the answers.  
The dual lotus for instance, everyone came from everywhere, would you just not wanna run keeper (Yes i know Zherbus in fact did) or would you just want to know what is going to be there ahead of time?
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« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2004, 02:18:12 pm »

Thanks for the replies, guys.

Quote

Re: Perish, try Hibernation and +1 Cunning Wish main deck instead. I also thought I needed it to control Big O, but I've found that Hibernation is more than enough. It's available game 1, and gives you another shot at countering SotF, as well as retarding their mana production by sending vineyard back to the hand - and doing it off their own vineyard mana is classy. Just watch those mongrels with both spells - I've been killed by a 14/14 mongrel before =/.

Can't say I've ever been a fan of impulse in Keeper - I always seem to want to keep 2, 3 or even all of the cards - but YMMV.


Hibernation strikes me as better in a deck like Fish or something else that can reallly pounce on the tempo shift.  Loading up their hand runs a lot of risk through madness.  And, while you can't rely on mistakes to win games, I killed some Wild Mongrel with Perish last weekend simply because of the level of distraction it caused.  Impulse has been nice in testing, not as much as Brainstorm, but well enough.  I like to think that I've got 60 good cards in my deck  Very Happy  , so making tough choices goes with the deck.

Quote

Andrew, a big thing I think you want to reconsider is a 2nd Maindeck Shaman. I really think Slaver forces us to play 2.

...and HOLY HELL! I was totally going to add 2 Perish! I didn't because I think Angel plus not getting land-fucked can beat Stompy and Madness


I think one of the open sideboard slots will become a Shaman.  If I can squeeze one into the maindeck, I'll see what I can do.

And Perish rocks..Wink  If anything, it replaces the Rebecca Guay slot in my sideboard that removing Aura Fracture left.

Quote

In terms of theory about Keeper, I've noticed that what it comes down to is that Keeper can't be the best blue deck. Hulk is way better at abusing blue as a base color. What Keeper does is maximize abuse of white and red. (It can't really claim to be maximizing black without using either Duress or Tog.) In this light, I'd wonder if it's possible to shift to even more of these colors. Has anyone tested more than two Exalted Angels?


Well said, I agree completely.  I haven't tested more than 2 angels, but I'd be concered that would require tweaking the manabase and that would, at the very least, make me even more vulnerable to Blood Moon.  However, it might be worth digging through some red cards to see if anything strikes me as useable.

Quote

If I expect some mixed, unpredictable metagame ( in less words.. a REAL one... ) and a larger variety of decks, I'm sure that Zherbus's one would perform better.


I agree, but I can't deny that Eastman's deck fits very well in my metagame.  If I was going to a tournament blind it would really depend on a few factors, but I probably wouldn't play Keeper at all and default to something like Hulk or Draw7 (ctthespian and I brought Draw7 to a sanctioned mini-tournament a few weeks ago--that defined guilty pleasure for me).

Angels are nice vs. monored, but don't overlook how amazing Decree is either.  I got matched up vs. Sligh and Decree ended up being a one-sided Wrath of God/Shock for me in two games.  CoP: Red is good insurance, but I'm not sure you need it now.

Quote

His newest build is much closer to answering this and when a new more general strategy is found which has a good general application for B, keeper I think will be tier 1 again.


I'm biased I guess, but I hope so.  To some degree I suspect that Keeper's ability to win will depend on its capacity to not lose.  This is both a strength and a weakness.  On the one hand, Keeper doesn't have an auto-lose matchup.  Even KeeperHate decks from a year or two ago had a pretty spotty record vs. Keeper.  The downside is that you might have to blow $30-45 on tournaments before you really tweak your local build.  Eastman's deck serves as a good example of a Keeper deck with a clear application for B, which is one of the things that makes me like the deck.  

More general questions:

Is Keeper's lack of a clear goal a drawback?  

If it is, then how do we reconcile Keeper with other blue-based decks with very clear goals like Hulk?  

Can a slow goal be viable in Type 1?

I see Eastman's goal as pretty clear: neuter most of the good decks in his metagame and build up enough quality cards to win.  Zherbus' goal, and I suppose the goal of my deck, is to either draw enough cards to pressure the opponent's resources long enough to achieve overwhelming advantage or to eliminate their threats with far less investment then they expended in establishing them and go from there.  Should either/both of these be more clearly defined?

Quote

My big question has been, how does one successfully pilot keeper say in a place where the metagame is too mixed/unclear, or where it is too large to succesfully have the answers.
The dual lotus for instance, everyone came from everywhere, would you just not wanna run keeper (Yes i know Zherbus in fact did) or would you just want to know what is going to be there ahead of time?


Again, I probably wouldn't play Keeper blind.  But Newington wasn't blind.  5 proxy tournaments have a slant towards green, since Madness and Oshawa are easy to build after the Bazaars and Black Lotus for people with Odyssey-block cards.  10 proxy/unlimited proxy tournaments are a different animal.  You knew Slavery was going to be there because of the amount of press it was getting here (and let's guess and say themanadrain.com was at least glanced at by half the people there) and builds had been refined at Cape Cod tournaments leading up this one.  Sure, you can run into weird unexpected decks, but that's when jpmeyer's post about the core cards of Keeper being enough to win some games come into play.  My mistake was testing too much against combo Slaver and not enough against control Slaver.  Damping Matrix is good against one and so-so against the other.

EDIT: Added more of a response to Ultima's reply since I think he made some really good points.
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« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2004, 02:25:18 pm »

Quote from: Dr. Sylvan
In terms of theory about Keeper, I've noticed that what it comes down to is that Keeper can't be the best blue deck. Hulk is way better at abusing blue as a base color. What Keeper does is maximize abuse of white and red. (It can't really claim to be maximizing black without using either Duress or Tog.) In this light, I'd wonder if it's possible to shift to even more of these colors. Has anyone tested more than two Exalted Angels?


If Keeper starts to run many Angels, maybe it should be running Mana Crypt, too.
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« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2004, 06:15:12 pm »

Quote
Quote:

In terms of theory about Keeper, I've noticed that what it comes down to is that Keeper can't be the best blue deck. Hulk is way better at abusing blue as a base color. What Keeper does is maximize abuse of white and red. (It can't really claim to be maximizing black without using either Duress or Tog.) In this light, I'd wonder if it's possible to shift to even more of these colors. Has anyone tested more than two Exalted Angels?




Well said, I agree completely. I haven't tested more than 2 angels, but I'd be concered that would require tweaking the manabase and that would, at the very least, make me even more vulnerable to Blood Moon. However, it might be worth digging through some red cards to see if anything strikes me as useable.

This might just be a random idea popping up inside my brain, but as Keeper is having some problems with Madness-variants, might a good old red friend be an answer: Flametongue Kavu?
It kills an Arrogant and trades with another critter and it also allows you to capitalize even more of your Angels (the 4 life per turn might well allow you to attack with both and if not Flametongue might at least stall the ground while Exalted keeps pounding).
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« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2004, 06:23:23 pm »

Quote
This might just be a random idea popping up inside my brain, but as Keeper is having some problems with Madness-variants, might a good old red friend be an answer: Flametongue Kavu?


Hmm, it's a great idea. However, I can't say I've been having a rough time with Madness... :/
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« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2004, 06:23:25 pm »

As long as we're talking about FTKs and Exalted Angels, let me say a few words: Astral Slide!
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« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2004, 07:02:39 pm »

Quote from: Matt
As long as we're talking about FTKs and Exalted Angels, let me say a few words: Astral Slide!

I think this suggestion crosses the line from "let's be tolerant and use new cards" to "Type 2 causes cancer, stfu". :)
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« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2004, 02:26:27 am »

I've never played a game against Madness, but I've played a lot of Keeper vs. Oshawa, and Kavu isn't really what I'd want to see - Troll's untargetability and Mongrel's frequent ability to outgrow it make it a little meh.

What makes Oshawa special as an aggro-deck is how its slowness and free mana push the match into the late(r) game, normally control territory - but where Oshawa can bring its card advantage engines to bear. Squee is just better than anything Keeper's got.

Answers like swords, Exalted and Kavu are prequisites to not losing, but don't win the game themselves, either - the need to deal with early survival has made me consider Dismantling Blow main deck again.

P.S. No no, the Astral Slide suggestion is good! Think of it... Rune of Protection: Red and Green main deck... the silver bullet theory lives again!
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« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2004, 03:38:22 am »

I think Ultima pretty much summed it up nicely. The problem I have with keeper is that if you know your metagame, there is almost ALWAYS a better control deck to play. It's a purely reactive deck that really doesn't do anything else. The obvious comparison is with Tog, but even then, I don't see keeper being much better than a deck like landstill or URPhid. I'm not dissing keeper by any means, in fact, I love the new things keeper has acquired to become good...from chains to angel. At least with Angel out, Keeper can play pseudo-tog, ignoring smaller threats and countering bigger ones.

Keeper's slow play is it's biggest burden. Sure, it can stand up to random scrub decks, and even some good aggro decks like madness/O. Stompy. But the second it enters a good, developed metagame, it has troubles. When you give a broken deck like 10 turns to win, you'll see your fair share of losses. Sure, it has a better chance than Tog against Slaver and Dragon, but vs. almost any other deck, I would much rather play Tog, and even if you face lots of dragon and slaver, it's not like you can't metagame Tog to beat it. I think Smmenen put it best when he said that you should play the better deck and metagame against the field, rather than play a weak metagamed deck.

Basically, IMO, Keeper is a very old and worn out concept. It's a reactive deck by nature. If you try and tweak it too much, it changes completely into a new deck, but if you leave it the same, it's still not very good. I think thats the dilemma keeper faces. Anyways, just my 2 cents.

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« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2004, 04:31:22 am »

Because it's both relevant to the thread and I teased at it earlier: this is a breakdown of the twenty-one Keeper builds which have thus far made my analysis pages. It's still not necessarily a large enough sample to identify ironclad trends in, but I think it highlights some of the trends here, though without showing the Exalted Angels that I was hoping would appear more. (Hypothesis: Tech is still slow to circulate in T1.)
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« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2004, 05:08:23 am »

Congratulation on the great, great overview.

On Green: It has some uses in Kroathan-Keeper builds, which work pretty fine in aggro heavy metagames.

Again: Great read!!
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« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2004, 05:30:03 am »

@clown: I dont think that running old concepts, makes Keeper a bad Deck. There is no point why new concepts should be better.
Its slowlyness also isnt a disadvantage imho. It uses the Resource Lifepoints to the max, by often winning with a low life count and winning fast is not better than winning slow, as long as you are able to play your 3 games.
I still think its a good idea to focus on a reactive play using only a few card slots for the kill.
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« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2004, 07:48:18 am »

Interesting breakdown, Dr. Sylvan.  Looking at the numbers it's pretty clear that not only is tech slow to circulate but a lot of people who play Keeper are more hesitant to adjust than others may be.  Keeper players get criticized for suffering from nostalgia a lot and in some cases I think that's a fair judgement.  I remember people not wanting to remove Serra Angels for Jester's Caps.  And then Caps for Morphlings, etc. etc.  

However, I think people confuse faults with players with faults in decks.  Keeper does have weaknesses but sometimes I think saying "It's not Hulk" frames the debate in a slanted way.  Nothing out there can match Hulk's engine (alright, I guess Draw7 has it beat), but other decks remain playable.  Hulk is a great deck, but Keeper's strength, as noted earlier, is the ability to use broken cards from 4 colors.  My decklist was an effort to build a deck that can work in my metagame by tightening its ability to find and use those cards.
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« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2004, 09:16:43 am »

Quote from: LoA
Interesting breakdown, Dr. Sylvan.  Looking at the numbers it's pretty clear...


The numbers don't tell us anything clearly. There is not all that much hidden in them either. You can't figure out how to make a good keeper deck by counting how many counterspells random.players used in a bunch of different tournaments around the world. Such analysis is useless.

The way to help keeper by looking at card choices is not looking at keeper's card choices, but those in all the OTHER decks. The key to building good keeper is understanding your meta. The article misses that in a big way.
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« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2004, 10:10:17 am »

Yeah, I see this more as a look at what ideas have reached wide use and which have disappeared. Keeper is certainly always highly metagamed by a good player, so a consensus deck will miss things, especially using data from so long ago. It's by no means the best list and I say so. For one thing, no Angels, and no one has yet successfully hosed the metagame of a big tournament with Chains. In another several months, doing this again might hopefully show further evolution and reactions to the world metagame.
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« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2004, 10:35:34 am »

Fair enough, but my conclusion was how Keeper players are sometimes slow to change cards, not that cards XYZ should be in Keeper.  When you see cards like Dismantling Blow in decklists, you can discern that that build is based off the older models.  I'd wager the same is true for the guy still running Braingeyser.  Mirari's Wake...I can't fathom other than the guy ran a Wake deck in Type 2 and liked the card.

One of Keeper's strength is that there are enough "open" slots that it can adjust to the local metagame.  The problem is that people who don't want to put effort into playtesting and research will either netdeck a Keeper for a different metagame or plug weird/subpar card choices in those slots.
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« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2004, 01:42:44 pm »

I think that with The best Angel ever printed, the Moat is in order for keeper again.  It's time to return keeper back to the days of The Deck.  I don't like Decree that much anyway.  Besides dropping 2 decree adding the Moat, and possibly another draw card might be a better build for Keeper.  I just love Exalted too much not to play 2-3 in my keeper.  Very Happy

Not to mention tog must cunning wish for the enchantment removal, it would be a surprise.  Furthermore, Keepers bad match ups are vs stoopid aggro decks, besides with exalted and moat, I think that leaves most aggro decks feeling less than aggro.  Exalted can just ignore 4 critters on the ground, and when moat hits, it makes exalted more powerful.  I like 2 skeletals in my Keeper also.  Good luck.
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« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2004, 02:47:32 pm »

The Angel is marginal against alot of decks - if all we ever faced was Madness, TnT, and Big O, it would be great. Then we could all run Moat and pretend that Tog, Slaver, and Dragon never existed. Since decks exist where Angel isn't a great threat, it is not the time to go back to The Deck.

Moat is just terrible against Tog. You play Moat - Tog smiles because now you have 1 less card to fight the card advantage war with. Once they have won that war, they can take care of Moat/COP: Blue/Damping Matrix/Wall of Bone.. whatever while they have 4 more cards in hand.
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« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2004, 03:09:40 pm »

Excellent Point Zherbus, I have been thinking about the card advantage from hell tog runs, it's insane, and I just don't think keeper is going to find an answer to it unless it starts cutting stuff hard.  Yes, keeping it real is vital for keeper to live on as a great deck.  I sure hope Keeper can be revamped into a teir 1 deck.
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« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2004, 03:43:27 pm »

Well, that won't likely ever happen. It's not so much a deck as it is a strategy. I can split with Tog and that's probably about the best I can hope for.
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« Reply #26 on: March 26, 2004, 10:00:05 am »

I'm not Keeper expert, but I have played it a bit.  I think the answer control thrives on is the ability to outdraw its opponent.  The Keeper vs Tog match is a dogfight between who the agressor really is.  Keeper has conventional removal spells to deal with Tog/Swarms, but these threats can be counter-balanced by the draw engine/overall card advantage that Hulk can generate.  

This is a Keeper build I was working on after the release of the latest set.

Mana
4 Fetch Land
4 Tundra
3 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Library of Alexandria

7 SoLoMoxen (Yup, all of them)

Counter
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
 
Restricted
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Yawg Will
1 Time Walk
1 Mind Twist
1 Mystical

Draw (This is where it gets unconventional)
1 Ancestral Recall
4 Thirst of Knowledge
4 Brainstorm
2 Deep Analysis

Removal
1 Balance
1 Fire/Ice
2 Swords to Plowshares

Creatures
2 Exalted Angel
1 Decree of Justice
2 Gorilla Shaman

SB
4 ReB
1 Pyroblast
3 Annul
3 Stifle
2 Rack and Ruin
2 Coffin Purge

This was my attempt to add speed and draw to the deck.  I'm sure this build would benefit from Academy, possibly even more artifacts.  The glaring hole is the lack of Cunning Wish and MD Skeletal Scrying.  People who know me know that I've been a supporter of Cunning Wish since its conception, hell I played with it in my mono blue build.  

While I appreciate the utility of the card, my concern is that it's not quick enough, and most often you wish you had more in your hand.  (This is all speculation on the environment at the time I was playing) By replacing the Wishes, I was able to create a rigid sb.  This may lessen the versatility of the first game, yet I think it strengthens the chances for the 2nd and 3rd game.

Overall I like the deck.  I know that Keeper didn't run 4 FoF when it was legal, but I think something could be done to utilize Thirst.  This deck may not have merit, but I put it up hoping it could spur some new ideas.
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