[Deck Discussion] EBA

[Kerz]

This is for discussion of the thread found here:

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=275188#275188

What are your thoughts? Please, discuss!

[snachos]

I have not played this deck and what I say does not necesarily matter but my gut reaction is

-3 Phids
-2 decree of justice

+3 negators
+2 swords of fire and ice

Even against red it is still possible to play negator around burn.  Meddling mage, duress, and counter make sure of it.  Ophidian is really slow in this enviornment IMHO, and decree is neither as agressive or as fast as the Negator.  I think sword is a great compliment to this deck either being dropped on a flyer or a trampler making it more likely that its draw card and damage abilitys will be triggered.  It doesn't get shutdown my maindeck hate as often as it would in other decks simply becasue of the control element in this deck.  That is not to say that it can't be shut down.  Just my thoughts.

~Mike

[mouth]

If you go first turn Duress, second turn Meddling Mage, there's a good chance that you'll be keeping yourself off UU or WW for a few turns, the latter of which isn't much of a concern early game. Lotus Petal could help, but finding a spot for it isn't possible. Sol Ring, along with Mana Crypt, are both more important, simple as that.

You missed Skeletal Scrying in your card drawing options, which is kind of surprising. I get a big rubbery one for Scrying now, especially in conjunction with Exalted Angel. If you were to try and work them into the deck, Ophidian would be one of the top candidates for replacement. My logic is thus: you can Drain into both, yet Scrying provides immediate card advantage, can be cast EOT, and looks really good foily. The obvious drawbacks being that you have fewer bodies to throw around, hafta pay life, and diminish the power of a late game Will.

The EBA archetype is very reminiscient of Dump Truck or Fiends from extended, which have very little game against fast aggressive decks, unless an Angel sees play quickly. Possibly another reason to add more Angels, and umm, cut Decrees.

I'm biased towards Angels, and have a strong dislike of DoJ, so anything I say about either should be almost totally ignored...

[Smash]

"The EBA archetype is very reminiscient of Dump Truck or Fiends from extended, which have very little game against fast aggressive decks, unless an Angel sees play quickly. Possibly another reason to add more Angels, and umm, cut Decrees. "

Its the other way around. Dump truck ripped off EBA and called it a deck.

2 or 3 angels is all you ever need. With 2, they show often enough to make me happy.

Phids are a house in the deck. Still, even with a full set of moxen and drains, I do sometimes use shadowmages in the phid spot. 1 damage a turn helps vs a lot of decks, nevermind the fear.

[mrieff]

I agree that Decree seems out of place in this deck.

Im not sure i'm liking Sword of F&I. Angels will win you games quickly anyway, and a sword would be overkill. You dont have that many other targets. I would prefer playing more creatures, like Negator/Angel/Ophidian.

[FireFall26]

Aaron, also why 4 duress?  Even hulk doesn't run 4 duress, I dont see it being so essential.  

As for phids, I will test 2 scrying, and maybe something else, not sure yet.  I will give sowrds of fire and ice some testing as well, seemes mediacore.  I wouldnt try future sight, with this decks mana base, i can see it having trouble getting UUU. Do you still think it needs the 1 city?

Edit: What about mindtwist?  Maybe sb, because there needs to be sb cards to help out the control matchup, when swords are dead cards and should be sided out.  I like serenity on the side, it really is a house.

[Rico Suave]

Aaron, also why 4 duress?  Even hulk doesn't run 4 duress, I dont see it being so essential.  

1) This is an aggro-control deck, whereas Tog is a control deck.  
2) Synergy with Meddling Mage.
3) This deck needs a good number of first turn plays, and Duress is exactly that.

[FireFall26]

Ive tested this version somewhat, with the changes of -3 phids + 2 sword and fire ice + 1 scrying. The scryign has been awesome...The swords have been OK Ive had games vs keeper wheere i dont have creatures, and literally one sat on the board and 1 sat in my hand.  It was just a dead card, which is why i am reluctant to keep runnig it.  Has midntwist been considered?  I had it in the SB but it wasnt a final version.  The mana base is kinda harsh with wastelands.  I find a lot of 1 land hands.

[THENATE]

i like the negators in there instead of the decrees. i tested decree a little and didnt like it. i havent tried it yet but how do u think shadowmage would do instead of ophidian?

[Rico Suave]

Harder on the color of the mana base, and not able to be cast off Drain or Lotus.

[BreathWeapon]

I was testing EBA against a small gauntlet of Tier 1/1.5 decks and was very surprised at how well it did. This is my current version, and its the most "radical" build i've seen proposed so far.

EBA.dec

The Core Cards

4xForce of Will
4xMana Drain
4xMeddling Mage
4xDuress

IMO, this 16 card disruption base is what defines EBA as a deck. You could probably stand to cut a Duress for room, but 4 provides maximum Mage synergy. Duress followed by a Mage is an incredible play vs Combo, Prison or Control.

The Draw Engine

1xFact or Fiction
2xSkeletal Scrying

Two things i've discovered while playing this deck are that Sword of Fire/Ice and Ophidian are both slow and cumbersome draw engines that simply aren't viable in competitive T1. Skeletal Scrying has awesome synergy with Exalted Angel, and it becomes that much better to play with. I think once you seriously consider the deck's options in Draw Engines, you will always come back to Scrying as the best choice. Ophidian and The Sword are slow and highly conditional, AK will only benefit Tog, Standstill is dubious at best and Geyser/Stroke are out classed.

Search and Destroy

2xCunning Wish
1xDemonic Tutor
1xMystical Tutor
4xBrainstorm
1xAncestral Recall
1xTime Walk


The utility of Cunnish Wish is too good to pass up, and it is flat out necessary to combat cards like Blood Moon etc.

Bombs

1xYawgmoth's Will
1xMind Twist
1xBalance

Balance has performed admirably so far in testing. It is on the cutting board however.

The Aggro Control

3xExalted Angel

I am really enjoying 3 Angels right now, and the 3rd Angel makes one hell of a difference in the deck. The evasive ability and life gain make Madness, TnT and O-Stompy a solid match up for you.

Mana
Black Lotus
On Color Moxen
Crypt
5 Fetch Lands
4 Tundra
4 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Strip
4 Waste
1 Library

The presence of the Mana Crypt encourages the use of 3 Angels MD. By now you've realized that the deck doesn't use a single STP MD, and all I can say is that i'd rather use the Angels to keep Aggro in check. It can be a little uncomfortable vs Welders, but reducing the number of dead cards vs Combo is a key consideration. I'd probably even run Vindicate in the place of STP.

Thoughts and Flames?

[Elric]

BreathWeapon-
I haven’t actually been playing EBA, so take this with a grain of salt, but I was trying to put together an EBA list and found that the mana base gave me a lot of trouble.  

The deck has a lot of sources of colorless mana, but very few cards that require colorless mana.  Adding Skeletal Scrying, the third exalted angel, and cunning wishes definitely gives you more to do with colorless mana, but do you have enough colored mana?

Mana Crypt works great with Exalted Angel- as long as you can find two white sources.  JPMeyer suggested adding all of the moxes/mana crypt to power out early Exalted Angels, but I found that often the deck could play an early angel, but couldn’t find a second source of white mana.    

Meddling Mage, Mana Drain, Duress are great cards, but require a lot of different colors of mana.  Vindicate might have the same problem.  Have you had problems with finding colored mana?  I think EBA has a lot of potential and love the synergies in this deck, but worry about the mana base.

[BreathWeapon]

The Manabase will always be an issue for this deck. While its not unstable, aggressive use of Stifles and Shamans combined with Strip/Wastes can land you in color screw. I haven't found anyway to prevent this short of using Stifles of my own. Luckely, the only deck that packs Stifles/Shamans is Keeper ... and its in a massive slump right now. The full set of Moxen is a mistake, the deck rarely uses off colored Mana short of Angels/Scrying/Fact/Wishes. It simply doesn't have enough sinks for the added Moxen, and their presence greatly reduces your colored sources. The Manabase can be even more telling for alternative builds. Right now i'm working on a version that swaps the 2 Cunning Wish for Vindicates and the Balance for Vampiric Tutor, resulting in less Mana Drain sinks and more Gold cards to establish a manabase for. Despite these issues, I actually think Vindicate is the shit albeit janky. You wouldn't believe the look on your opponents faces when you destroy their Manabase with a Vindicate and fly in for the win with your Exalted Angel ... its priceless.

[Hi-Val]

Is it worth dipping down to 3 Wastelands for a maindeck Plains? Use Strands and you can pull it out, and it greatly increases your chance of keeping that second source due to the stability of basic lands. Vindicate fills the role that a Wasteland took. Stifle can do the same thing, albeit with a smaller LD role. It seems that this deck really, really needs white mana. Securing it is almost as important (more important?) than nabbing stable blue mana.

In conclusion, something must be cut for a plains. I just don't know what. Maybe one of the fetches.

[BreathWeapon]

Mana Denial is definately not one of primary focuses of EBA. I've contemplated cutting Wastelands and Strips entirely from the deck, but there is simply nothing better to replace them with. If you feel as tho' you need a basic plains to tighten your manabase, then by all meens cut a Wasteland for one. If your having problems supporting the WW in Exalted Angel, Decree of Justice is an alternative win condition that deserves consideration. It will weaken your Aggro-Match Up but will improve your Control Mirror and Stax.

[FireFall26]

Mana Denial is definately not one of primary focuses of EBA. I've contemplated cutting Wastelands and Strips entirely from the deck, but there is simply nothing better to replace them with. If you feel as tho' you need a basic plains to tighten your manabase, then by all meens cut a Wasteland for one. If your having problems supporting the WW in Exalted Angel, Decree of Justice is an alternative win condition that deserves consideration. It will weaken your Aggro-Match Up but will improve your Control Mirror and Stax.

Yea I definetly hhave to agree with that.  I have been testing the deck, and noticed there are many onpening 1 land hands, and generally there are wastelands to take care of it.  Here is the list I have been testing:
       1 Black Lotus
        2 Island
        4 Flooded Strand
        1 Polluted Delta
        1 Strip Mine
        3 Wasteland
        4 Tundra
        1 Plains
        1 Sol Ring
        1 Mox Sapphire
        1 Mox Jet
        1 Mox Pearl
        1 Library of Alexandria
        4 Underground Sea
        1 Ancestral Recall
        3 Exalted Angel
        1 Vindicate
        4 Duress
        3 Swords to Plowshares
        1 Yawgmoth's Will
        1 Mystical Tutor
        4 Force of Will
        4 Meddling Mage
        4 Mana Drain
        4 Brainstorm
        1 Demonic Tutor
        2 Skeletal Scrying
        1 Time Walk
SB:  3 Damping Matrix
SB:  2 Coffin Purge
SB:  3 Stifle
SB:  1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB:  1 Energy Flux
SB:  1 Mind Twist
SB:  2 Serenity
SB:  1 Disenchant
SB:  1 Swords to Plowshares
 
  I tested sword of fire and ice and I do not like it at all in this deck.  In pure aggro it would be good, but this is way too dependent on having a creature out in play.  Many games it sat in my hand as a dead  card.  Phids are meh, i dont think they deserve a spot, scrying is better.  I tried decrees too, but I cut them because of the mana issue too.  I maybe even want to fit in another vindicate, they are nothing but awesome.  This is obviously control eba, thats why the threat count is a little low.  Maybe a decree in for angel would be good.

[FreeSpace]

I've thought a little about card drawing in EBA, people removes 'phid for Skeletal Scrying. Well, I don't agree. I've thought about Deep Analysis, wouldn't it be great? It's a great sink to mana drain mana and the loss of life is well compensated by Exalted Angel. I will try 2-3 of them to see if they make the cut. What do you think about it?

[BreathWeapon]

I think it doesn't cycle, it can be Misdirected, it can be REBed and its Sorcery speed ... that pretty much rules it out of contention.

[FireFall26]

Yes I agree with Breatheweapon, I would rather run scrying over deep anal

[gregg]

The sword is a very good card, if anything, I'd play it sideboard.. at the least.  It's good vs the random creature matches.

This card is extremly good, and after playing (and winning) quite a few local events with it, I'd have to back it as much as possible

[FireFall26]

The sword is a very good card, if anything, I'd play it sideboard.. at the least.  It's good vs the random creature matches.

This card is extremly good, and after playing (and winning) quite a few local events with it, I'd have to back it as much as possible

Did you play the aggro version?  My version only runs 7 targets (4 mages 3 angels) so its a dead card too often.  I assume you had negators, or even phids too

[gregg]

[quote="FireFall26]Did you play the aggro version?  My version only runs 7 targets (4 mages 3 angels) so its a dead card too often.  I assume you had negators, or even phids too[/quote]

I had the phids, but not the negators.. there's a lot of sligh and stuff around here (yes, I know that sword beats sligh.. they just like to burn the crap out of the negator in response)

[Elric]

I noticed that EBA and Keeper lists seem to be converging more and more.  For example, BreathWeapon’s EBA is 13 cards off from Zherbus’s recent Keeper build (4-5 of these as primarily mana, although using Mana Crypt, for example, is a significant difference)

With that in mind, maybe people can take ideas from either Keeper or EBA and see how they apply to the other deck.  As Ultima point out on LoA’s Keeper thread, Keeper probably needs a game plan of its own.  Zherbus’s recent build has more of its own plan than most Keeper builds, and this is probably an improvement.  EBA seems to have even more of its own game than Keeper.  Are the builds going to get any closer, or is this about as close as the two decks can come?  

Breathweapon EBA:
+4 Meddling Mage
+4 Duress
+1 Exalted Angel

+1 Tundra
+1 Fetchland
+1 Underground Sea
+1 Mana Crypt

Zherbus Keeper
+2 Decree of Justice
+2 Gorilla Shaman
+2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Cunning Wish
+1 Fire/Ice

+2 Volcanic Island
+1 City of Brass
+1 Sol Ring
+1 Mox Ruby