Single Card Discussion: Fact or Fiction in Tog.

[CrazyCarl]

Ever since the 4 color version of Tog became popular after GenCon 2003, most of these lists haven't been running Fact or Fiction.  The biggest argument for this is it doesn't fit the mana curve.

I say mana curve shmamacurve.  Moxen and Mana Drains kinda break that in half.  It's soooo good to pump up Tog, and some of the splits your opponent will have to make are some hard(though not as bad as splitting a ComboSlaver's FoF... Soooooooo good).

Thoughts?

[Dr. Sylvan]

I think that a Hulk with three Wishes should have some hard instant card draw in the board (not just Vampiric Tutor), so FoF is perfect. I've found myself preferring it over a boarded DA often. I don't know that I would maindeck it, because it really is expensive. In the board, it's a way out of a situation where you aren't digging fast enough or you have too much mana. In the main it clogs up the flow of other spells.

[jpmeyer]

I just want to be able to have access to a card drawer in the SB to Wish for and I'd rather have the synergetic FoF there than the not-so-synergetic Skeletal Scrying.

If FoF were unrestricted, I'd figure out a way to play 3 maindeck.

[Clown of Tresserhorn]

I definitely LOVE Fact in the board for Tog. There are simply too many situation where you either: 1) drain a huge threat late game but have no real spells to cast exept for a wish or 2) win a counter war and get 5 mana off a drained force.

Wish -> Tutor is a bit slow so I would much rather pay UU and just win. It's not really that hard to fit into Tog lists as well. my SB looks like:

4 REB
1 BEB
1 Oxidize
1 Artifact Mut
1 R&R
1 Berserk
1 Deed
1 Fire/Ice
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Coffin Purge
1 Gush

I've got the lone gush in there in random/aggro matchups. Normally, 1 Gush and 1 REB would come out for 2 more purge, but nobody, and I mean nobody here plays recotr-trix or powered dragon (and by that, I mean no bazaars). Anyways, back on topic, I've wished for Fact on sooooo many occasions it not funny.

[rvs]

I just want to be able to have access to a card drawer in the SB to Wish for and I'd rather have the synergetic FoF there than the not-so-synergetic Skeletal Scrying.

If FoF were unrestricted, I'd figure out a way to play 3 maindeck.

you'd just cut deep anal for them if they were unrestricted.

I haven't been missing FoF at all, and in my SB, I'm using Gush. Ofcourse, I'm still hung up on the pure control version (decklist in the tournament report thread from Antwerp which I won.)

[Eastman]

I just want to be able to have access to a card drawer in the SB to Wish for and I'd rather have the synergetic FoF there than the not-so-synergetic Skeletal Scrying.

This is an argument I've heard several times that I take issue with. Many people run FoF in their boards to wish for and quite frankly, I've found it vastly inferior to scrying in that slot.

The 'not so synergetic' scrying pumps tog. There is this myth that it doesn't that I need to dispel. You trade cards in the yard (worth .5 damage each) into cards in hand (worth 1.5 damage each). While small scryings may not pump tog quite as much as FoF, the difference is usually academic. In a 3-2 split FoF will pump tog only 1 more point of damage than a scrying for the same cost. If you have 5 to pay for the scrying you'll match the 3-2 split FoF. More often than not, however, at this point in the game you've got 7 or 8 colorless available to you (between drain, moxen, and crypt/ring) and scrying fetches you an entirely new hand full of cards.

I've found that scrying is really insane in a tog SB, I wouldn't run tog without it.

On the issue of FoF, it is a strong card and like other must counter instants it can be a huge bomb when played on your opponents eot.  There are a lot of variants of tog and its going to depend on what you want your deck to do whether or not you run it. In highly aggressive builds (the kind I've found to be strongest against slaver, incidentally) it is a definite inclusion. Carls right in saying that sometimes, you DO have 4 mana in decks with mana drain and it's appropriate to put a few big bombs in your deck to take advantage of those moments.

[ELD]

In my version of tog (Accumlulated Knowledge, 3 Deep Analysis, 2 Intutition, 2 Cunning Wish) there is no room for extra card drawing in the main.  Tog really is just a ball of card drawing.  The question is what card drawing is most effective, and against what decks.  

Vs Control, DA's are a back breaker.  They can bring you back from hopless situations, in a nearly uncounterable way.  

Vs Aggro Instant speed card drawing is prefered, but not mandatory.  FoF may be a little expensive, but when it resolves you'll be pretty close to winning.  Now, I play a very controling version of tog.  In the past, pre-Deep Analysis, I have had some games where my opponents only had one or two turn because of a main deck FoF.  

Vs Combo instant speed is a must.  FoF is gold.  It is massive card and practically says "win target game"  

Vs Prision FoF is tough.  The instant speed is very solid, but having 4 mana up can be a difficult.  It's very similar here to the function it plays vs aggro.  

In the control heavy enviornments that I play in I feel that the best card drawing for the main is DA.  I could not replace one for a FoF.  For the most part, the function that FoF would fill is taken care of by Ancestral and AK.  Having it in the board works for me, as it can come in when you need it.  With the control match up often being so important, I'd rather have my maindeck configured to give me the biggest edge against it.    

One last point, if Cunning wish were to somehow get restricted, FoF would be there in a heartbeat.  If I were to run it main, I would still have gush in my board as a wish target.

[CrazyCarl]

I love Deep Anal as much as the next Tog player does, but there's one problem I have with it--It's a sorcery.

I hate sorceries.  This is why I generally go out of my way to play Duress and whatnot.  Deep is also a really good Mana Drain target.

I'm fine with running two, but three seems a bit excessive.  Just board in the third and run FoF MD

[Eastman]

I love Deep Anal as much as the next Tog player does, but there's one problem I have with it--It's a sorcery.

I hate sorceries.  This is why I generally go out of my way to play Duress and whatnot.  Deep is also a really good Mana Drain target.

I'm fine with running two, but three seems a bit excessive.  Just board in the third and run FoF MD

I was having this argument with phelon last night. The problem with deep anal is it forces you to try to win with brute force card advantage, which might not necessarily happen in the mirror, rather than trying to finesse a victory through careful play.

Mana Drain and Misdirection beat it up too.

[ELD]

Intution for DA when you run 3 is game over most of the time against control.  Especially the tog mirror.  They need to catch up in card advantage, usually with AK.  This means your AK's become ridiculous.  

In comparison to FoF, having a non-flashback DA is not a big deal.  I have no problem if my opponent is going to counter.  I usually won't fight over it.  If anything, I'd rather use the two mana to flash it back, or counter whatever they'll try and do on their turn.  Even if they counter it, it's still card advantage.  

Misdirect I love, but it isn't too popular right now, as there are alot of decks with zero targets (Big O, Mud, Dragon)  I wouldn't say that it's a huge deal if DA gets misdirected either.  You both break even on card advantage.  

I still feel FoF is a meta choice.  If control is huge in your meta, I'd rather have it in the board.

[CrazyCarl]

The problem I have with Deep Analysis is it's complete crap against aggro.  Not that aggro is good, but humor me.

FoF is much better as you really only need it cast once to be as good as Deep Anal is good against control.  It's metagame dependant, but I try to build all my decks for a more balanced metagame, like a Waterbury tournament or GenCon.

[Thug]

I played tog in Antwerp yesterday and I had 2 DA's maindeck and Gush maindeck, FoF was in the side to wish for.

Against control the Gush often left, and made room for DA #3.
Against Aggro, DA made space for Deed #2 and FoF.

What I'm trying to say it that these three cards all shine in different matchups and I think you want acces to all of them, one way or the other.

I can't Imagine battling Aggro without Gush, nor can I imagine battling control without at least 2DA's, nor can I imagine playing with Psychatog but without FoF.

My 2 Cents.

Koen

[Grand Inquisitor]

I ran a very similar configuration as Thug at the last Hadley.  I have similar sentiments on wanting access to all of them.  The reason why I board FoF is because I want access to three wishes, but at the same time, I don't want them to be dead weight against control.  If I could sideboard DA and wish for it (like in Your Mother) I probably would.

[Smmenen]

I played tog in Antwerp yesterday and I had 2 DA's maindeck and Gush maindeck, FoF was in the side to wish for.

Against control the Gush often left, and made room for DA #3.
Against Aggro, DA made space for Deed #2 and FoF.

What I'm trying to say it that these three cards all shine in different matchups and I think you want acces to all of them, one way or the other.

I can't Imagine battling Aggro without Gush, nor can I imagine battling control without at least 2DA's, nor can I imagine playing with Psychatog but without FoF.

My 2 Cents.


Koen

I think that configuration is correct.  You'll notice I have been fighting for Gush for Months when I added Mana Crypt to the deck for the first time ever.  I also think one shaman in the maindeck is a must, however.  And for some reason I like Merchant Scroll better than Mystical.

Steve

[Thug]

I think that configuration is correct. You'll notice I have been fighting for Gush for Months when I added Mana Crypt to the deck for the first time ever. I also think one shaman in the maindeck is a must, however. And for some reason I like Merchant Scroll better than Mystical.

Gush has been amazing in different games, not only as a kill-card with tog, but also to get the LoA (which I also loved) online.

A Shaman would be very nice against the current field, but the problem is that almost all of the Slaver decks have Blood Moons that will ruin your 4-colour mana-base. Thats why I opted for three colours.

I played with both Mystical and Merchant, and sometimes the Merchant was a little slow, but it also more than once got the drain/fow I needed to backup something, and when not getting a card that creates card advantage it's really nice to have a search card that doesn't lose cards if you get what I mean.

Koen