[report & discussion] ub- TPS top8 in a 40 people tourny

[Necropotenza]

http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18626
Yes, Tendrils based combo decks are underplayed in America.

After 4 days of extensive testing of the deck, I got the feeling that the deck could work well if I modified my MD according to the metagame i expected. What I feared the most were Landstill and Fish decks, MUD and decks playing MD Null rod. For this reason I used 2 Rebuild, 1 Chain of vapor and 1 Darksteel colossus.

This is the decklist I played:

4 Polluted Delta   
1 Tolarian Academy   
3 Underground Sea   
2 Island    
3 Swamp    
   
4 Brainstorm   
4 Force of Will   
4 Duress

1 Mind's Desire   
1 Mystical Tutor   
1 Ancestral Recall   
1 Timetwister   
1 Windfall   
1 Memory Jar   
1 Yawgmoth's Will   
1 Necropotence   
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain   
1 Diminishing returns   

1 Demonic Tutor   
1 Tinker   
1 Vampiric Tutor   
1 Time Walk

1 Black Lotus   
1 Lotus Petal   
1 Mana Vault   
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Sapphire   
1 Mox Jet   
1 Mox Pearl   
1 Mox Ruby   
1 Sol Ring   
4 Dark Ritual   
1 Cabal Ritual ---- I don’t own Emerald   

1 Darksteel Colossus   

3 Tendrils of Agony   

1 Chain of Vapor   
2 Rebuild   

Sideboard

2 Blue Elemental Blast ----> I don't have 4 beb
4 Tormod's Crypt   
3 Cabal therapy   
2 Hydroblast
2 Rebuild
2 Smother

The turnout for the July’s monthly Perra Comics tourny was 40 people, the maximum they can fit in the reduced play area. The top prize was a Mox Pearl. There are games were I don’t remember what really happened… On to the report:

1st Round (Oscar Basart with MUD)

He starts with double mox, shop, trini, which I FoW. He plays sphere of resistance. I lay a basic land to play a mox, with the mox I play another one and pass. He resolves tangle wire and on the next turn a winter orb which keeps me totally locked. When he can play sundering titan I scoop.

-1 Tendrils, -1 Diminishing, +2 Rebuild

I get the nuts draw. I start with sapphire, mox, swamp, ritual, Twister! I draw into lotus, ritual and d.tutor.

I don’t remember much of the 1st turns… He eventually tries a chalice for 2 when I’m already quite locked, which I let resolve I’ve got basic lands which he can’t waste so I’m happy. When I must rebuild I do it and now he knows which kind of bounce I play. After a few turns and a FoWed chalice for 3 he has a worker which reveals 5 artifacts. He starts with jar which resolves, he blows it instead of trying chalice for 3… ok. He draws into another chalice which I can hopefully FoW and he can’t much more of the cards drawn. Again, a few turns afterwards he has me quite locked with wire. In my upkeep, I play mystical tutor for rebuild, float mana and play rebuild in my draw step. This way I can play mox, ring and m.vault. Next turn I’m able to hardcast a darksteel colossus with double ritual, ring, m.vault and a land. I win in my last extra turn because time was called… phew!

2-1 (1-0)

2nd Round (Jordi Monraba with Drain slaver with s.titans)

He manages to counter a few key spells, I don’t draw very well and he seals the deal with a s.titan via thirst welder.

-1 Tendrils, -1 Diminishing, -1 Colossus, -1 Windfall, +4 T.crypt

He draws as I have never seen this game. I lay t.crypt and he a welder. Each time I try to resolve a key spell he counters it. He eventually hardcasts mindslaver and forces me to blow t.crypt. He can’t do a thing with my turn because I don’t have a black mana producer and all my hand was black. Titan beats kill me in a game were he plays 4 FoW, 3 Drain, 1 Reb, 1 Recall and 2 Thirsts.
Jordi would reach top 8.

0-2 (1-1)

3rd Round (Antonio Nieto with Void)

This is a matchup I fear because duress, hymn and void are very bad news for my deck, now I regret not putting misdirections in my SB.

I start with island-go. He plays ritual-something… At his eot I brainstorm into: lotus, ritual, whatever. Next turn I’m able to combo off producing mana, playing a tutor for y.will.

No SB changes, I can’t find anything that would improve the matchup.

I think I did mulligan to 6. He plays 1st turn shade. I play land-go. He hits me and plays a 2nd shade. I play land, lotus, ritual and bargain. I have a black mana floating but I draw into crap and loose �

My first turn is basic-go. He plays something irrelevant. I play bargain and this time I win, as you should always…

2-1 (2-1)

4th Round (Pez with Gobbo sligh)

I could’ve played bargain 2nd turn and won on my 3rd one, but I screw up my mana count and end up with bargain in hand and all my mana resources wasted. I loose.

-4 Duress, +2 Beb, +2 Hydroblast

Mulligan to 6. Basic-go. He plays a 1st turn Null rod, I’m ok with that. I eventually rebuild and combo him off.

This is a repetition of my last game.

2-1 (3-1)

5th Round (Esteve Bueno with Sui B-g-u)

This is Sui with green for pernicious deed and blue for walk and recall. Again, I didn’t want to face this matchup…

I mulligan to 6 and start. I combo him out 1st turn thanks to a fantastic brainstorm, gotta love the brainSTORM

I don’t Sb in anything.

He starts with ritual, hyppie. I can play a swamp and duress to see 2 land,  a strip and a shade. As I don’t have a broken hand and I don’t topdeck anything good I die to hyppie beatings after countering a necro and seeing him resolving a saucy y.will.

As I see he doesn’t SB out his diabolic edicts: -1 Colossus, -1 Diminishing, +2 Smother
You can see here that my SB must be improved, I put smothers because I feared m.mages and random creatures that f*** me.

This game it’s me playing first, I play a 2nd turn Necropotenza and go all the way with it. Paying 10 life 1st time, doing a 12 point tendrils (after protecting my hand with FoW from a hymn), and the next turn another tendrils to finish him off.

2-1 (4-1)

5th Round (Oliver Satizabal with 4cC)

We ID into the top8. I go to the bar to refresh myself because it was really hot in the store.

The decks that make into the top8 were (in no particular order):
2 MUD
1 4cC
1 Drain slaver
1 WTF - r
1 Rectal agony
1 Affinity
1 ub - TPS

1/4 Finals (Pablo Ambrojo with MUD)

I mulligan to 6. He starts with trini which I FoW and then resolves a sphere of resistance (I think). That sphere stops my start � After this he plays wire and the next turn a karn who eats my two moxen. Karn finishes me off quickly with the help of wire and sphere.

-1 Diminishing, -1 Tendrils, +2 Rebuild

This is my starting hand: delta, island, walk, twister, ritual, tendrils and REBUILD. I decide to keep it because if he goes 1st turn trini I can hopefully rebuild and then go nuts… I lay land and pass. He does a sphere. The match can be summed up in that every time I’d be able do Rebuild he topdecked another sphere so I can never cast it and die to a couple of workers and a m.factory.

This is it, I get 4 Darksteel packs for getting into the top8 of a 40 people tourney…

If you have any suggestion or any question about the deck or about the tourney let me know.

As of now the only change I’d do is in my SB, I’d swap 2 Rebuild for 2 Hurkyl’s recall. And then I’ve got 2 more slots (the ones that accupy Smother) that I don’t know what to fill them with.

I think all Italians play the deck with a Cunning wish, which I dislike because it bastardizes your SB and because I think a Chain of vapor can fill the role of the catch-all.

Discuss please.

[EDIT: my sideboard list lacked 4 cards]

[Marton]

while you can float mana during the upkeep and still have it during your draw step, I am pretty sure that you cannot play spells during the draw step. You CAN play abilities that triggers/can be played during the draw step, like minds eye, but thats pretty much it.

[Necropotenza]

@Marton: 304.1 First, the active player draws a card. This special action doesn’t use the stack. (This is a reversal
of previous rules.) Then any abilities that trigger at the beginning of the draw step and any other
abilities that have triggered go on the stack. Then the active player gets priority and players may
play spells and abilities.[/b]

[Smmenen]

[

I get the nuts draw. I start with sapphire, mox, swamp, ritual, Twister! I draw into lotus, ritual and d.tutor.


Discuss please.

If that's the nuts draw for that deck, you need to play a different combo deck.

[Kowal]

I second that.

[Marton]

indeed. its the only thing written for the draw step in the comprehensive rules. I was wrong on that. However I still don't see what advantage you get from playing the card during your draw step compared to the main phase.

[Necropotenza]

@Smmenen: I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If you mean that draw7 is far much broken than ub-TPS you are right. I went for the solid mana base and more difficult to disrupt deck rather than the one with more explosive openings.

[Klep]

indeed. its the only thing written for the draw step in the comprehensive rules. I was wrong on that. However I still don't see what advantage you get from playing the card during your draw step compared to the main phase.

If you have to tap down to a Tangle Wire, you may want to float mana and then cast instants after your draw.  That's what the advantage is.

[Marton]

damn, I could I have missed this. It's written just the line before my quote. I blame it on the long report I promise I won't scrub-out again and ask stupid questions like that. Particularly with the rules interactions stuff I also missed. Ill stay quiet for now

Other than that, good report

[MaxxMatt]

Necropotenza Wrote:

2-1 (1-0)
2nd Round (Jordi Monraba with Drain slaver with s.titans)
...
-1 Tendrils, -1 Diminishing, -1 Colossus, -1 Windfall, +4 T.crypt
...

I don't know if it is the best way of sideboarding against DrainSlaver with your sideboard configuraition.

He reasonably brought in ReBs and his goal would be slowing you a bit countering your draw7 and bluespell with them buying some time to kill you with some combination of Titan/Slaver.

I would have added 2 or 3 BeBs and some bouncers. The first ones kill Welders and can sometimes backup you against ReBs while the latter can buy one or two turns if a Slaver resolve but not activate itself immediately.

How the side works for you?
I think that you would have appreciated a lot more different cards in your side in place of Therapies. It seemed to me that you didn't bring them in at all during the entire match so I think that they could be substituted with something with a wider usage.

You have Crypts in.
Which siding porpouses they would have covered?

Against DARgon you are faster and a good mix of BeBs and Stifles should do the same job.

Against Slavery they can go around them by multiple Welders or by playing Titans or something nasty such as P.Angel.

Against Hulk, if they are winning against you, you can take out all his grave and they will kill you with the cards in his hand and a Berserkered Atog. On the other hand a correct stack's resolution of the Crypt/Atog pile of effects can give you a lot more damages too.

IMHO Crypts will slow the deck too much to be the right choice in some different situations.

What do you think?

You seemed to side out Diminishing Returns a lot.
It is of course the worst Draw7 of the deck ( expecially if played in a single copy ).

Try to tell me this thing. If you compared the times that you draw into it, would you remember if another Tutor/Drawer/Utility would be bettere in this spot?

Would have been LimDuul's Vault better as Istant End Gamer?
I have a lot of candidate in that spot that you may try to test a bit, because they all were used by my teammate and they all seemed to function well in different situations.

1) Lim Duul's Vault ( My pet card. It dig/search better than any other tutor AN ENTIRE SEQUENCE of spell. With the nearly untouchable mana base the double color issue would not be a great problem )

2) Frantic Search ( It is clearly card disadvantage -1, but it had extraordinary advantages if compared to some other cards commonly used. It is free, it can untap lands under Wire, it put in the grave two dead card if unlucky Brainstorms occurs, it multiply mana if Academy is in play, it is not overcosted and Pitchable to FoW

3) Fact or Fiction ( It is the worst suggestion but I saw one of my teammates really be pleased by this added drawer. It is an Istant Speed one and can be used to trade counters during opponent's EoT instead of playing ALL your key spells in you mainphase. It can reaveal broken spells and the crucial positive point about it is that OPPONENTS CAN'T USUALLY divide the 2 piles correctly because of the lack of the correct infromations about your hand. Forcing them to fail in some way is KEY to win. )



I realized with a lot of proud, that you didn't mulligan a lot during the entire tourney and you could be able to win games in which you mulliganed to 6. It is a really good test of the deck's consistency.

How worked for you 3!!!! Tendrils of Agony? I would have played 2 and a Collossuss. 3 Tendrils are always too many to be supported. When I test 3 of them they forced me to mulligan my initial hand much more than usual.

Smmemen Wrote:
If that's the nuts draw for that deck, you need to play a different combo deck.

You could have resolved the same sequence of spells with Draw7.
DT-->Y.WIll--> Some spells-->Lotus --> DT--> Tendrils is a common route for the victory, expecially against a counterless deck as
MUD. And IMHO is the Best/Safer/Cooler way of winning with a Storm.dec. Draw7--> into Draw7--> into Draw7 are not always a 100%SURE VICTORY. Bad Things Happens.

Which astonishingly and surprising broken plays can be done against an helpless MUD deck when Combo go first? I think that ANY play that involved some mana acceleration are game winning themselves.

The only broken plays that Draw7 can do to win consistently against MUD is to bring a modified Dice that let you always go first.  
Go second against MUD and you can't usually resolve a single spell.

On the other hand against an hate deck as MUD,if you are playing Draw7, your only other way of winning is going off during you first-second turn because Draw7 play 10-11 lands and they all dies to Waste. You can't go up to 3 land TO START winning with a deck with 11-wastable-lands. You can't safely go-off because you don't play any bouncer maindeck.

I'm not saying that Draw7 is a bad deck. Simply, I'm saying that there are too many things that can auto-kill the entire deck that are commonly played by the tier1 of the moment ( Rods, Trisohere, Massive-Denial+FoW etc. etc. ).

I like consistency and solid winnings more than random and extremely kitch brokeness.

[skecreatoR]

Wouldn't Dragon be a better choice with all the sui.black? It loses brutally to DeathLong, but yet again...

[Necropotenza]

@MaxxMatt: my reasoning to SB in crypts against D.Slaver was because their  fast way to put in play a titan or a slaver is weldering them in. I think that beb has limited targets (welder and SB rebs) and sets you in a more reactive way of playing. Crypts are free, which can add-up spells if you are comboing.

Cabal therapies in my SB were for the Landstill matchup which is a difficult one. I haven't had the opportunity to bring them in in the tourney, but I'm positive about them. As I told you the night before the tourney, I wanted to test them in place of Misdirections.

I didn't draw into Diminishing returns a lot this tourney. When I did, I couldn't cast it because of the double blue. This was due to my matchups, that all played Wasteland, and it is not very easy to be able to fetch double Island. In fact, I'd rather have double Swamp than double Island. I may try Lim-Dûl's Vault in its place, although I'd rather have a drawer than a card-disadvantage tutor in the deck.

I played 3 Tendrils because if you are trying to combo off with draw7 action you are more likely to see one (duh!) and you don't fizzle as much as if you play 2. I use the same reasoning when you go Necro route.

@skecreatoR: there were a total of 4 Sui or Void variants, I just got paired up against them. Dragon is good against Sui but it's not great against Landstill and 4cC which we have a lot.

[Matrix]

I made it to top 25 in a 150 man tourney, top 4 in a 53 man tourney and top 8 in a 25 man tourney all in the last 3 weekends! Pat me on the back and call me American baby!

My list is
           :lol:             Neo Tps              :lol:

            1 Wheel Of Fortune
            1 Demonic Tutor
            1 Necropotence
            1 Yawgmoth's Will
            1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
            2 Tendrils of Agony
            4 Duress
            4 Dark Ritual
            1 Ancestral Recall
            1 Tinker
            1 Windfall
            1 Timetwister
            1 Time Spiral
            1 Mind's Desire
            2 Chain of Vapor
            4 Brainstorm
            4 Force of Will
            1 Darksteel Colossus
            1 Memory Jar
            1 Sol Ring
            1 Black Lotus
            1 Mox Jet
            1 Mox Pearl
            1 Mox Sapphire
            1 Mox Emerald
            1 Mox Ruby
            1 Chrome Mox
            1 Lotus Petal
            1 Mana Crypt
            1 Mana Vault
            1 Lion's Eye Diamond
            1 Tolarian Academy
            1 Volcanic Island
            2 Flooded Strand
            3 Polluted Delta
            4 Underground Sea
            4 City of Brass

           Sideboard technologies withheld until post Gencon due to the death of Psychatog  

I don't know what else to say about Tps other than that it's easy to make mistakes with and not as bad as many would think. I like the results I've gotten.  I'll probably keep playing it until I salvage a win.

[Phele]

I don't see the benefits of adding red in the mix. Just Wheel and REBs in the sideboard are in my eyes not worth a color splash totally making your manabase vulnerable. I think you can compensate the loss of red with all the tools black und blue are giving you.

[Matrix]

Wheel is one of the best cards in the deck. Im 4-1 lifetime vrs decks that run wasteland and could never see myself wanting to draw an island or swamp in place of a City that will give me both.

[BreathWeapon]

Alright, I've brought this up a few times before on the boards and never had any feed back, which probably meens the idea sucks

Should TPS and Death Long converge?

Here is the list I'm currently working with,

Disruption (9)
4xForce of Will
3xDuress
1xHurkyl's Recall
1xChain of Vapor

Search (6)
4xBrainstorm
1xTime Walk
1xAncestral Recall

Tutor (3)
1xDemonic Tutor
1xVampiric Tutor
1xMystical Tutor

Wish (4)
4xDeath Wish

Draw 7 (4)
1xMemory Jar
1xTinker
1xTimetwister
1xWindfall

I Win (3)
1xMinds Desire
1xYawgmoth's Bargain
1xNecropotence


Kill (1)
1xTendrils of Agony

Mana (30)
4xCabal Ritual
4xDark Ritual
5xFetch Lands
4xUnderground Sea
2xIsland
1xSwamp
1xTolarian Academy
7xSoLoMoxen
1xLotus Petal
1xMana Crypt

Sideboard
1xYawgmoth's Will
1xDiminishing Returns
1xTendrils of Agony
1xBrain Freeze
1xHurkyl's Recall
1xChain of Vapor
1xDuress
4xPhyrexian Negator
1xDarksteel Colossus
3xOpen Slots

The deck seems to be incredibly solid, Basic Islands are tech vs 4cc and Fish. The Cabal Ritual -> Death Wish Engine gives TPS so much more versatility and brokenness. I don't see any reason why TPS should use so many sub-optimal cards when Death Wish adds superior dimentionality to the deck. I haven't missed Burning Wish, Wheel of Fortune and Xantid Swarms as much as I thought I would. Time Walk and Mystical Tutor have been sub-par, but I haven't found anything worthy enough to take their place.

Have any of you crazy Europeans tried this yet?

[g0tenks00]

I put your decklist together on apprentice and goldfished it about 20 times last night. I have mixed feelings about the deck: on average it goldfished and killed on turn 2.8 .... approximately turn 3, which isn't impressive by vintage combo standards. I often found myself drawing a lot of mana with not enough business spells early enough, and would have to spend a lot of spells and mana just to cast a draw 7, which didn't always draw me into the nuts. The only games that were turn 1 kills were when had bargain in my opening hand and enough mana to cast it. Necropotence in the opening hand meant turn 2 kill usually. Of course there were probably mistakes that I made while goldfishing it, and I'm sure it takes a lot of practice to play it optimally. Just wanted to give you my testing results thus far.

[Necropotenza]

@g0tenks00: my decklist and BreathWeapon's one are combo decks that can win against Workshop.dec and against control decks based in Mana drain and Fow. This means playing 9-11 disruption/protection spells and a mana base safe from Wastelands. The result is a goldfish of around turn 3.

[Whatever Works]

I have seen more and more builds running 1 Darksteel Collosus, and after testing it I have found it to be an incredibly good tinker target. It is amazing vs. so many matchups that can be problematic. Grabbing Jar is usually the better play, but Colosus offers a safe fall back option that opponents just cant deal with unless they run STP.

Comparing this deck I have found that alot of the benefits of the deck are maintaining consistency. I like this accept for the fact that if you were playing draw7 alot of these inconsistencys wouldnt exist. (mana base with wastelands... being to slow... welder (if welders out with a graveyard you didnt win fast enough)

Draw7 is overall much more explosive, and if you are worried about consistency the 2 extra colors doesnt really have any influenece on the consistency (Smennen made me flip flop but testing agreed with him.)

Draw7 can crap out, but the title of inconsistent combo decks is far far overdone. I believe its based far more on playskill then anything else. So many places you can screw up and never no it, and only the best players with alot of combo experience ever top8.

If your parenoid about consistency consider that draw7 can run just as many dissruptive sources (if not more then u/b TPS not that i would reccomend it.) Consider this as a slightly over the top control base for Draw7 to prove a point about how much any (non belcher) combo deck can protect combo.
15 cards
4 Xantid Swarms
4 Duress
4 Force of Will
2 Hurkly's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor

Now thats a bit over the top, but i run something along the lines of...

4 Force of Will
3 Duress
3 Xantid Sworm
2 Hurkly's Recall (Very Very Versatile can let you combo out with almost nothing in hand)

Thats 12 cards of hate but i can only really consider 10 of then true protection, because hurkly's Recall rarely target opponent unless they play something scary. Green adds crop rotation that can grab Academy and ESG can help to deal with first turn trinisphere.

A major arguement is running basics vs. nonbasic lands... Can anyone explain why this matters at all??? I mean really how??? Your going to combo off turn 2, and you got over 50% of your mana sources being artifacts. If their first turn wasteland makes your deck stall then you have much bigger problems then the mana base.

[Kerz]

Should TPS and Death Long converge?

No. TPS is a slower, but extremely consistant and resillient combo deck. Death Long is more resillient to hate/counters than Draw7, but it is still in the category of "balls to the wall combo", where TPS is more controlling.

[BreathWeapon]

God damnit, I just lost a page worth of commentary. Lets try this again.

I do not agree with the last 2 posts.

@Whatever Works

Utilizing Basic lands is an important aspect for Control. Force of Will inconjunction with Wasteland from Keeper or Fish is a massive blow to your Tempo, especially when your only using 11 Lands. This is highly relevant in regards to D7, because the UU for Diminishing Returns is extremely difficult to achieve with out Lands on the board. The same can be said for Death Long, however BB is significantly easier to achieve than UU. D7 is more "consistant," however consistancey is not the issue. D7 attempts to win by utilizing a strategy that has an inherent flaw, it gives your opponent 7 new cards. Even with perfect play, you can't be sure that the Draw 7 will be asymetrcial. TPS wins by setting up slowly into Necropotence, Bargain or Tinker->Colossus with Memory Jar, Timetwister and Windfall playing a secondary role, thus it curtails the dilemnas of D7 with added Disruption and Basic Lands.

Colossus is by far one of the best cards in Tendril decks, especially Tendril decks with FoW. For 1 card, you can single handedly defeat Aggro-Control (FoW/Waste/Rod). I have 1 in my current list and I have no intentions of removing him anytime soon.

Your list for Disruption in D7 definately made me raise an eye brow. I have never seen a D7 list with more than 8 slots of Disruption, 4 of which were always dedicated to FoW. I don't see how such a list is possible with out significantly harming the deck's focal strategy. D7 doesn't set up the win, it wins now. It is the logical extreme of Combo, and it should remain that way IMO.

@Kerz

I agree that Death Long should be categorized as a "Ballz to da Wallz" Combo deck, however the deck is not played solely in that mode. That's one of the most important realizations you'll make when playing the deck, you have to know when to go for it and when to accumulate cards in your Grave Yard. Unlike D7, Death Long can't simply play a threat and realisticaly hope to luck into the win, although it has the capacity to do so. Death Long seeks to play Death Wish more aggressively than TPS, but that doesn't meen that it can't serve similar purposes in TPS albeit at a different Tempo. I don't believe that the question is "Should Death Long and TPS converge?" anymore. Instead, I think we should be asking ourselves can TPS utilize Death Wish as a 2ndary Combo Engine and Control Measure? I believe it can and it should. TPS has the Disruption and the Manabase stability to play Death Wish in "Accumulation Mode" better than Death Long can. However, it sacrifices some speed and brokennes to do so. Think of it like Cunning Wish in Hulk and Cunning Wish in Keeper. Both decks use the card to equally good effect but differently.