[Article] Where All the White Cards At?

[Smmenen]

One of Ben Bleiweiss' articles kind of summed up that what white needs with creatuers is a creature set like the Onslaught goblins, where they're all pretty good on their own, but when they come together it's amazing.  That seems way in line with white's flavor.

I'll answer this while answering Steve.

White should never be conducting a blitz; that's way too Red and uncalculated. Instead, the army is based on a buildup of powerful logistical resources to an eventual overwhelming campaign.

I believe that the attempt to make White the strong weenie color is a part of that mistake. [...] White simply has nothing to complement the weenies to make White the best weenie color. Other colors do.

We are in agreement on this issue Steve, but I think black should be specializing in midrange creatures. As the mana costs go up, the color shift should go white, red, black, green, white, green (tokens, goblins, shades, fat, angels, jumbo). This makes white the second best creature color in some ways, but I think white weenie is a total mistake. Red is the color of the most aggressive attacking horde, black has to pay some other resource to make its guys big and effective (we expect large drawbacks), green gets both the best 4/4-5/5 range creatures (Ravenous Baloth, Blastoderm) and the uberfat, while white gets the token army and large angels/spirity-things. All the colors can have utility creatures with flavorful abilities, but those almost follow the design rules for other types of card rather than general creature rules.

Your close -  but your missing a key element in my estimation.  Red should have the 2nd best weenies - but they only seem best becuase of hte burn.  Jackel Pup is not objectively better than Savannah Lions, yet we know becuase of hte color that it is.

I think White (as you know) should have the best finishers and 4th best weenies.

BTW,  I think the KEY that only I have pointed out to my knowedge, is that the reason white sucks has nothing to do with any of this weenie bullshit - the key is what I said in my article:

The bottom line is that there is always going to be overlap in the color wheel. The reason White is continually weakening is because Wizards has realized this, but has continually expanded White's strengths in other colors because, on the surface, it makes sense to do so. For example, in Mirrodin, it is clear that Green despises the artifice. White opposes the artifice only if it is evil, aggressive against White's values, or lawless. Nonetheless, White still has an interest in good removal spells, but that interest doesn't seem as compelling as Green's in Mirrodin. By printing the best artifact removal for Green, you inherently weaken White for Constructed play. I'll explain why.

By giving other colors removal and mass devastation effects where Wizards need not, White is progressively weakened and seen as a less attractive Constructed option.

The point is that by having lots of "bleeds" you discourage people from wanting to play a specific color, and that White's abilities bleed out too much relative to other colors, necessitating greater effort to keep them within White.

That right there is the problem.  End that and White will return, over time, I promise.

Stephen Menendian

[Dr. Sylvan]

Oh I agree with that. That's the whole point of my constant harping that the enchantress mechanic is misplaced. Too much of white's enchantment power was lent out to green. I agree on the removal too. I think our opinions are closer than you think, I just emphasize different bits.

And Nantuko Shade doesn't make black the weenie color; neither do pump-knights. Goblins are clearly the best weenies--they don't even need support spells to be one of the best combo decks in Type One! Your point about the burn only applies to conventional Sligh, and has the counterpoint that black's discard makes its weenies seem better. If you have other examples of black-flavored cards which lend themselves to a weenie horde, I'd be interested. It seems more flavorful to me that black should aim to have more concentrated power in a couple of creatures than a horde. Black is selfish, so it should be inherently hard to work as a team.

[Ric_Flair]

One of the challenges that Wizards is facing right now, because of the surge in popularity of Vintage, is designing cards that cut against the traditional power scale of various formats.  For example, traditionally cards that were good in Vintage were better in Extended, great in Standard, and INSANE in Block.  The best example of this is cards like Moxen and the like.  If they were legal in any other format they would be dominant.  But we don't even need to go to that power level to see the problem.  Force of Will, Mana Drain, STP, and others all dominated smaller cardpool formats in their days.  Until recently there seemed to be no solution to this problem.  Then Wizards printed Chalice of the Void.  Chalice is a very different card from past cards because it is most powerful in Vintage, okay in Extended, bad in Standard, and likely awful in Block.  Trinisphere and other recent cards do much the same thing.  So this dispells the first problem, namely that if a creature is good in Vintage it will be busted in lesser formats.  Juggernaut, for example, is living proof of the possibility of designing creatures that are good in Vintage but not so good elsewhere.  

I chose Rebels for a number of reasons.  First, without rebel searchers in the format like Lin Sivvi and Ramosian Sargent, it is possible to print REALLY good rebels without fear of them overrunning smaller formats.  Second, they are very thematic (except for the name) for white.  It is an army of creatures that depend on each other for power.  Unlike chaotic goblins, rebels respect the chain of command (the ability to recruit "senior officers") and they work well in offensive AND defensive combat (see Defiant Vanguard, Blastoderm slayer of choice at the time).  Both of these characteristics seem to make Rebels a very, very white army.  Third, Rebels provide white with powerful mechanics that are usually found elsewhere on the color wheel.  For example, Rebels' searching ability is basically card drawing and tutoring combined.  Both of these things are traditionally non-white abilities, but because they are on creatures and the creatures are functioning as an army, the abilities are in color.  Another reasons Rebels could work in Vintage is that once one is in play the rest of the army can avoid the pitfalls that weaken other creature decks in the format, that is, once a searcher is in play, the rest of the Rebels are uncounterable.  Finally, because of the recruiting ability, Rebels ensure that white is more than just the weenie color, which as has been stated many times before, is a terrible theme especially in Type 1.  

I also disagree with the fact that creatures with activated abilities are either weak or broken in Vintage.  While certainly on the more powerful side, I think that Goblin Welder is an appropriately powered card for Vintage.  It is not quite as degenerate as Rector, but I think it shows that it is possible to make creatures with activated abilities that don't suck or are broken.  Goblin Recruiter is another card with an ability, that in the context of Vintage, does not seem that awful.    Granted, there aren't that many, but there aren't that many non-beatdown creatures in the format to begin with.  

Finally, the issue of shuffling.  In formats without so many Draw 7s, Tutors, and a less prominent role for fetchlands, I could accept this as a drawback against making good rebels, but Vintage is not that format.  The fact is that most decks run fetchlands, and given the amount of draw in the format, this means that shuffling every other turn is not that uncommon.  Furthermore, nearly every deck runs some battery of tutor spells, all of which force a shuffle.  In fact, in a metagame with Draw7.dec I would imagine that shuffling every turn is a regular happening for most decks.  So this final problem with rebels is a moot point in Vintage.  We shuffle alot already.

I am not sure what form the new rebels could take, but I don't think it is impossible to design some rebels that could make a Rebel deck have an impact on Vintage, especially if some of them had rules making type abilities, another white theme, that, as many people have pointed out, is woefully underexplored.  

As a last note I just want to say that many people who play Vintage may not have had a chance to play Rebels at their height in Standard.  That was an incredibly fun and powerful deck to play with.  It allowed for a lot of customization and required designers to count each slot as precious, much like Keeper does.  Rebels allow for a spectacular range of silver bullets.  In some ways, Rebels was a very Type 1 deck in its feel, play, and design.  This is not to say that is currently viable in the format, but just to point out that the rebel theme already has some parallels in the format.

[Dr. Sylvan]

My characterization of activated abilities as dangerous was in the context of searching cards out of your deck. Ramosian Sergeant is not good in Vintage; its ability costs too much for the result. So they would have to print a better searching Rebel to have it make a difference, and/or they would have to make rather overpowered 1-2 cc Rebels that would make the Sergeant's ability better. If Wizards makes a search card that's too good, we run the risk of another Rector-like situation, with unintended consequences. Limiting it to white creatures seems to eliminate this worry, but as usual we need to worry about the future: a good creature-tutor might discourage good creatures in the long run simply because they can be tutored. This is the problem I was referring to, perhaps unclearly.

Presupposing that it can somehow be a good searcher for Vintage without breaking something accidentally, I don't think this solves the fundamental problem of White Weenie: mass removal. Individually the creatures are interesting and some of them are even powerful. But as long as Balance is out there, investing in a creature board position is unwise. Rebel-searching makes it very hard not to overcommit to the board, and as a longtime WW player, I know that this is the most dangerous possible scenario.

[winnie]

I agree with Dr. Sylvan, white Enchantress's Presence is the card this color need's to boost it's draw.

winnie

[SpencerForHire]

My thought withs whites removal is for the most part, is that it is creatures now-a-day.  Creatures are only a little over 1/3 of all decks.  (mostly aggro then some kill conditions in control)  that isnot nearly worth it enough to run cards like WoG in T1.  They need cheaper forms of  A. Vengence to be worth it.

[Smmenen]

I'll say it again becuase its worth emphasizing.  The problem with White is not that it is weak inherently.  The problem is Color Bleed.  That's what I've been saying the whole time.

It is not about needing to print new goodies for White - its about the fact that they need to stop stealing from White's pie.  

Color Wheel overlap is inevitiable, but they need to make a conscious effort to reign it in for White becuase White invites the most overlap becuase it has the most utility in the strict sense of the word (artifact destruction, enchantment destruction, protection, etc).  Do that, and Slowly, but surely, White will return.

I think, for the most part, the damage is already done with cards like naturalize, Oxidize, Smother and the like.  Imagine if they never printed naturalize.  If Oxidize and Smother were White.  What then? I'll tell you what then, White would not necessarily see alot more play - but the other colors would see relatively less and over time it would lead to a marginal increase in whites usage.

Menendian

[Ric_Flair]

I don't think this solves the fundamental problem of White Weenie: mass removal. Individually the creatures are interesting and some of them are even powerful. But as long as Balance is out there, investing in a creature board position is unwise. Rebel-searching makes it very hard not to overcommit to the board, and as a longtime WW player, I know that this is the most dangerous possible scenario.

Philip, this sort of statement is true in a general sense but ignores the possibility of making a creature with the express purpose of limiting WW's exposure to mass removal.  Anyone remember [card]Planar Guide[/card]?  Imagine if they cheapened the ability, like say, saccing Planar Guide without the mana cost or for instead, and made him a Rebel?  I think that this would go a long way toward solving the problem.  Imagine turn 1 Sgt, then use the ability to get the new Rebel Planar Guide and sac it all while Balance is on the stack.  I am trying to use a really new card to show that doing something like this is not too remote a possibility.  

The Rebel mechanic is perhaps the best white theme to come along in a while, both in terms of overall power and in terms of flavor.  

@ Steve:

The problem with White is not that it is weak inherently. The problem is Color Bleed. That's what I've been saying the whole time.

It is not about needing to print new goodies for White - its about the fact that they need to stop stealing from White's pie.

I followed the argument you made in the article when it was written, but I am having difficulty in following it now.  The simple fact is there is a relatively large, but finite set of themes in Magic.  Taking one from one color and giving it to another will always be problematic.  Bleeding white cards into other colors is simply the opposite of not printing good white cards.  Disechant was lost to green.  Green is up one good theme, white is down one good theme.  White now gets good weenie flyers, blue is down one theme, white is up one theme.  There is only so many resources to go around.  Bleeding colors, barring the creation of a new mechanic, is really the same thing as printing new goodies.  This, seems to me, to be a distinction without a difference.  


White needs to a) explore its own themes better, especially the rules making theme; and b) it needs to get new goodies.  If these goodies don't come from a) then they must be bleeds or new cards entirely.

I also fail to see the logic in the last statement.  If Naturalize was never printed, this would do nothing to increase white's presence in the metagame.  If there were no bleeds, no Naturalizes, white would still suck right now.  Even when they can, who uses Disenchant?  Few people if any.  If the point is, without bleeds, people would be forced to turn to white, I think this does little to rectify the problem of white.  It would just lead to more decks that splash white for Balance and a few handful of cards.  And to cite this as a genuine increase in white in the metagame is a bit of slight of hand.  It may be true in the technical sense, but the problem still exists.  

There is another possible read of the last statement, namely that without bleeds into other colors, decks like GAT, which use a lot of white bleeds according to your argument (Naturalize, Smother, Oxidize), would not be possible.  So we would lose a whole host of decks.  But there is nothing making it necessary that white decks would fill this void.  Is it the case that GAT is keeping WW out of the metagame?  Or is it the fact that white has no good disruption that keeps WW out of the metagame?  I think it is the second issue.  I think it is safe to say that even if there were no bleeds and decks based on these bleeds left the metagame there would still be a dearth of white.  

Bleeds or not, white needs new cards exploring its current theme or new themes.  Perhaps I am missing your point.

[Smmenen]

I'll try to explain in more detail.  

One good card does not make a color.  Witness Green.  Why is green seeing play?  Certainly not simply because of Xantid Swarm or even Pernicious Deed alone.  What is going on is that there is an accumulation of playable Green cards which has meant that in deck desgin generally, there is greater incentive to use green over the next available color.

Moreover, that incentive grows every time a new decent green card has been printed - Oxidize is merely the msot recent in a long string of green playables.

Witness White.  Not only have there been fewer white playables, but those that have been printed have seen play.  But the problem is that while there are alot more good White cards than see play - the incentive to use the color has never been less.  Why?  Becuase over the last 3-4 years, Wizards has a) bled white into other colors more than ever: Mutliate, Smother, Naturalize, and so on and b) tried to make white good as a weenie color, or c) made White's good cards effectively unplayable outside of blue (Dismanlitng blow, Meddling Mage).  

Color Bleed is the problem.  If they would stop bleeding White's colors elsewhere and reign it in, then slowly White would build up enough of a good card pool that people would actualy play with it.  

Specifically, they have made a huge mistake in making Black the more removal oriented color with Smother, and the plethora of other great removal spells that black has been given over the last 3-4 blocks.  White should be the number one creature removal color - NOT black.  White should be the number one Finisher's color, which it still is.  But white should also be the number one Artifact/Enchantment removal color, not Green or even Red.  

If Disenchant specifically woudln't see much play - that isn't my point - I'm speaking on the margin here - there is less incentive to use what remaining card pool white might have once you give it to Green.  

Expanding White's part of the pie isn't the solution if Wizards would go back to basics and give white what it used to do best.

I disagree with your point about increasing White's presence as a tertiary color is slight of hand.  Rather, I think that is the GOAL.  White can NEVER function as a color unto itself - few colors can actualy do that - MAYBE BLUE, Maybe Black, and only Brown for sure.  Green's presence in the metagame has increased primarily as a Tertiary color and I say GOOD FOR IT.  That leads eventually to secondary color status.  But White, Green, and Red are likely never to be the best primary color unless there is a damn good reason for it.  It's not sleight of hand, its the facts.

Menendian

[cssamerican]

Smmenen: I understand what your saying, but it is too late. The bleed has already happened. This is Vintage, you can't fix bleed problems because they will exist forever. So we might as well forget that White had Disenchant all to intself until Onslaught, and began to focus on what White could be in the future. Green is seeing play because it is getting white cards printed in its color. Xantid Swarm a reusable Abeyance mechanic, Pernicious Deed is a symetrical removal spell, Root Maze is a cheaper Kismet. So Green is getting good because it is a combination of two orginal colors Green and White. Since we know this, the only way to fix it is to start giving White new mechanics/strengths that no other color has, or at least totally out of place in another color like the Enchantress. I do agree with you in that whatever you give White in the future, wether its rebels or enchantments you give it to white exclusively. And quit bleeding White dry. I just think they have bleed White so badly that they really have nothing left that makes you say I want to play a White deck. So they must give White its own niche.

[Dr. Sylvan]

Tony: The right rule-changing cards could immunize a hypothetical Rebel deck to mass removal. In fact we could assume a rule-changing card that hypothetically solves any problem. (Abyss repressing white? Pro black! Moat? Flying! Deed? Second-Sunrise-Guy!) White weenie can work around certain specific problems in this way, and given a Rebel search engine it might even be able to silver-bulletize its strategy. However, this returns to Steve's axiom about hate decks. The hypothetical deck sounds like it would be an attempt to hate the opponent rather than present a strong general strategy in opposition to his. This has been my experience with Control Enchantress: silver bullets cannot make a deck anything better than a tier-two metagame niche deck for Type One.

Steve: I think I understand the argument better now, and like your position.

[Jacob Orlove]

Stopping bleeds is important, but I don't think people understand just how much we can do with rules-making. These cards can do anything. Take a look at this idea I had earlier today: http://www.themanadrain.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15489
Ironically, it fits perfectly with the WW 2/2s that are the bane of white, but such is life.

Rules-making lets white do anything, and that includes proactive (as opposed to reactive) disruption, and provides generic utility as well as specific answers. Combine it with less bleeding, and white could become a real color in T1 again.

[Ric_Flair]

Philip:

     I think there is a difference between silver bullet decks and hate decks.  In my mind the archetypal silver bullet deck, like Rebels were, is a deck like Napster or Keeper.  These decks have a lot of drawing and a lot of search.  They generally finish with one or two hard to removal permanents and they can pack lots of 1 ofs because of the amount of draw and search they run.  Nevertheless, they are not simply hate decks.  Silver bullet decks have their own game plan, which, if left alone, they can run all day long and win with.  Silver Bullet decks are generally control oriented and simply take the control philosophy one step further.  Instead of controlling the game through general utility, because of the draw and search elements, they can pack powerful but limited hosers, like The Abyss, Balance, and Perish.  In Vintage these hosers might be less "narrowly tailored" than, say, Perish, but the difference is really one of degree and not kind.  

Hate decks, in my mind, are typified by decks like Fish or Ankh Sligh in that they focus solely on undoing the strategies of popular decks or playing on those deck's weaknesses.  They have a game plan of their own, but in the end that game plan is only good because it victimizes other decks, whereas Silver Bullet decks, left to their own devices can win on their own terms.  Ironically enough hate decks are generally aggro or aggro control.  Instead of one or two narrowly tailored hate cards, they pack lots and lots of the same cards, thinking that redundancy and aggressiveness will win the day.

As such I agree that a hate deck cannot be tier 1.  A silver bullet deck can be.  Furthermore silver bullet decks have been tier 1 in every format.  Vintage has Keeper.  1.5 has Trenches or Scepter Control.  Extended had Napster, Maher Oath, and Secret Force for a while and now has Dumptruck.  Tinker, in its less control form, veered into silver bullet territory.  As did Napster, both of which were good in Standard.  Rebels, with the ability to utility belt search for stuff to stop red decks, black decks, and Blastoderm were the epitome of Silver Bullet in Standard and in Block.  In sum, I think that Silver Bullet decks are substantively different and far more effective than Hate decks.   I think the Rebel mechanic, supported with enough good Rebels is powerful enough to see the light of day in Vintage as a control deck, silver bullet strategy based on creatures that can tutor each other.  Even if Rebels did not make it, I think the idea of a control deck with white utility and creature based search is a potent idea.  Of course execution is the mark of success, so until they actually print good Rebels or other search, this is all theory.  

My point is that Rebels have the potential to be good, balanced in all of the formats, and still remain in color for white.

[defector]

I think we just have to be patient here.  Red was transformed from Burn/Ball Lighting(not very good), into Gobline with either burn or combo as strategic employment choices.  Wizrds will get to white sooner or later, I think white is probably still the best spalsh color wih the game with Swords and Balance, D-Blow and Moat.  It looks like the primary colors are Blue and Black.  That's just life, R/G is a highly synergistic combination with neither color being the primary in my opibion, we need a W/X that gives it a R/G or a set of control cards that make it worth basing in White and splashing B/u with.  It's not going to happen until Wizrads gives us the cards.  On the other hand, white has a strong old pool to work with, we may be only one missing piece form a new Archetype featuring white.  We'll see.  
defector
P.S.  If Wizards printed a crd today that made your life total matter, or if we re-investigated and found one, white would be there,

[jpmeyer]

Did someone say "Color Pie?"

[Colossus]

White is actually really good in type II right now, and there are a wide range of cards that make it so, so inevitably its only a matter of time before this type II success hits type I.  Some cards that have a chance of making it:
Exalted angel/decree of justice- I believe both of these cards are now being used.
Wheathered wayfarer- he can search for any land.  Could turn out to be a useful ability for white in the long run, though in such a splash heavy format I fear sylvan scrying will be used instead if the effect is desired.

Unfortunately way too much of white's mirrodin block power has been focused on equipment and big splashy conbat tricks. . . so I fear that very little of these cards will fin d their way in.

[Jacob Orlove]

This thread is two months old. Die.

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