Teferi's Response

[waSP]

My board position = Infinite mana, 2 cursed scroll.

My opponent has a Mishra's Factory and some blue.

He attacks.  I scroll it, he casts Teferi's Response, I respond by scrolling.

Does the Teferi's Response destroy the Cursed Scroll.  Also, does he drawa 2 cards?

[Jebus]

I've seen conflicting answers, but I'm going to go with information from Jeff Jordan's most recent reply on the subject.

TR will be countered on resolution for not having a legal target.  The original activation of CS no longer targets a land he controls, which makes it an illegal target for TR.

Since all of TR's targets are illegal, it is countered on resolution and none of its effect occur.

[JSexton]

Jebus's answer seems correct, as it goes along with Confound's rulings.

For example. I control Grizzly Bears. Bob Shocks them. I respond with Confound. Bobs responds by Incinerating the Bears. Incinerate resolves, killing the Bears. My Confound checks its target, the Shock. As Shock is no longer targeting one or more creatures, Confounds target is invalid, so Confound is countered upon resolution, and I do not draw a card.

By the same logic, Teferi's Response will be countered upon resolution, saving the Scroll, and not drawing its controller any cards.

[Shock Wave]

Interesting, I had always assumed the opposite. Jebus, is this ruling written in stone, or is it still subjective?

[Jebus]

Interesting, I had always assumed the opposite. Jebus, is this ruling written in stone, or is it still subjective?

I don't believe it's very subjective.

The rules on targeting are quite clear.  If a target isn't legal, a spell is countered.

If the Scroll ability isn't targeting a land any more, then it isn't a legal target for TR.

Confound's rulings back this up as well.

[waSP]

Similarly to Rack and Ruin, does he still get to draw 2 cards.  Or because he doesn't have ANY legal targets anymore, he just gets a bad taste in hsi mouth?

[Jebus]

Similarly to Rack and Ruin, does he still get to draw 2 cards.  Or because he doesn't have ANY legal targets anymore, he just gets a bad taste in hsi mouth?

All targets are illegal so the spell is countered.  None of it's effects happen.

Rack and Ruin can still destroy one artifact if at least one of it's two targets is legal when it resolves.

[Jander78]

I always assumed the oppsite.  Even though there isn't a target for the Shock anymore, it is still originally tageting a land and I don't think that weather that spell resolves or not is an issue.  As long as Teferi's Response can be cast, than I would think it will still sucessfully counter the original spell regardless of weather that spell will be countered on resolution or not.

This is from a Star City Games "Ask the Judge"

Q: If I target a land with Wasteland, and my opponent cast's Teferi's Response, and in response I Strip Mine the land, does the Response become countered because the Wasteland is no longer a legal target for the Response to counter?

A: No. The Teferi's Response doesn't target the Wasteland; it targets the Wasteland's ability that's on the stack. The only time the Teferi's Response would be countered is if the ability itself was no longer on the stack.

- Sheldon

[Jebus]

Sheldon's reply seems incorrect and seems to be ignoring several issues.

Jeff Jordan has made replys that indicate Sheldon's anser is not correct and that is what I have based my answer off.  I'll see if I can get a more offical answer.

The issues is:

TR can only target a spell or ability that an oppoennt controls and that targets a land you control.

If the target of the targeted spell or ability is no longer in play, then it no longer has a target.  It is thus no longer targeting a land you control.

Since the target of TR is no longer targeting a land you control, it is no longer a legal target for TR.

A spell with no legal targets is countered on resolution.  Thus, TR will be countered upon resoluiton.

The same applies for Confound which has the following text "Counter target spell that targets one or more creatures."

It must target a spell that targets creatures.  If that spell no longer is targeting a creature, it isn't a legal target for Confound.  This is supported by this ruling:

"Confound is countered on resolution if the targeted spell has been countered or does not still target one or more permanents that are still creatures and are still in play. [Rules Team 2001/05/01]"

This ruling should also apply to TR.

[Lockdown]

I would like to agree with Jebus on this one, however, I have one objection.  According to the following text:

413 - Resolving Spells and Abilities

    * 413.1 - Each time both players pass in succession, the object (a spell, an ability, or combat damage) on top of the stack resolves. (See Rule 416, "Effects.") [CompRules 2003/07/01]
    * 413.2 - Resolution of a spell or ability may involve several steps. These steps are followed in the order listed below. [CompRules 2003/07/01]
    * 413.2a - If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's removed from play, or from the zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A target may also become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability was played or if an effect changed the text of the spell. If all targets are now illegal, the spell or ability is countered. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or ability can't perform any actions on it or make the target perform any actions. If the spell or ability needs to know information about one or more targets that are now illegal, it will use the illegal targets' current or last known information. [CompRules 2003/10/01]

I believe that first the Wasteland ability goes on the stack, then the Teferi's Response, then the Strip Mine.  The Strip Mine resolves first taking out the land that happens to be the same land targeted by the Wasteland.  However, I don't believe that the Wasteland ability is countered yet.  It is only countered according to 413.2a upon resolution.  Then the Teferi's Response resolves, which counters the Wasteland before Wasteland is checked for legal targets, and therefore the opponent gets to draw 2 cards.  

So in conclusion, the only bit of logic that I'm worried about with Jebus's interpretation is whether or not Wasteland still "targets" the non-existent land and therefore, whether or not it is still a legal target for Teferi's Response because I might think that Wasteland still targets the land at the time of resolution of Teferi's Response.  

The reason why I think Jebus is right is because of the line:

A target may also become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability was played or if an effect changed the text of the spell.

 

However, what does this line mean?

If the spell or ability needs to know information about one or more targets that are now illegal, it will use the illegal targets' current or last known information.

I'm not sure about this so are there any other thoughts?

[ProZachar]

I asked this very same question a year ago on the judge list.

Zach Kissane <zkissaneSPAMCANBLOWME@UMR.EDU> wrote:
> So if my opponent Ports my City of Brass, and I respond by using
> Teferi's Response on the Port's ability, then sacrifice my CoB to my
> Zuran Orb (yes, I realize that there are better plays in this
> scenario), by similar logic, TR Won't Work, right?  Is TR countered
> on resolution?  If it's different from the Meddle scenario, what
> makes it different?

<Rune>
Teferi's Response will be countered on resolution, because it's target is
not legal, the target is not a land when the spell resolves.

Teferi's Response is templated like Confound, and Confound has this Ruling
associated with it:

Confound targets a "spell that targets one or more creatures." That means at
least one of the target spell's targets must be a creature when Confound is
played and when it resolves. If none of the spell's targets are creatures
when Confound resolves, Confound will be countered entirely (its controller
won't draw a card).

<Zach again>

If you read the entirety of 413.2a (the last rule you quoted) it becomes clearer:

413.2a If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that’s removed from play, or from the zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A target may also become illegal if its characteristics changed since the spell or ability was played or if an effect changed the text of the spell. If all targets are now illegal, the spell or ability is countered. If the spell or ability is not countered it will resolve normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a target is illegal, the spell or ability can’t perform any actions on it or make the target perform any actions. If the spell or ability needs to know information about one or more targets that are now illegal, it will use the illegal targets’ current or last known information.

[Lockdown]

However, that's when TR's target becomes illegal.  What happens when TR's target's target becomes illegal?  There's a stack issue there I think.

[ProZachar]

That's what I was talking about.  That's what Rune said on the list:

Teferi's Response will be countered on resolution, because it's target is
not legal, the target is not a land when the spell resolves.

[Jebus]

However, that's when TR's target becomes illegal.  What happens when TR's target's target becomes illegal?  There's a stack issue there I think.

Read it carefully, that IS what is happening.

TR's target is illegal BECAUSE the target of TR's target is illegal.

[wonkey_donkey]

Surely the issue is what the response is targeting? I would have said that as the wording on the response is "counter target spell or ability..." and that the ability is still on the stack at the time (the target was legal on announcement, and it hasn't checked on resolution yet) that teferi's response counters the ability and 2 cards are drawn. The fact that the ability would have been countered on resolution anyway is not relevant to teferi's response, in my view. Teferi's response counters an ability targeting a land that you control that is no longer there, and I don't think that it would check the ability to see if its targets are still legal, as long as both were legal on announcement. Once it's on the stack, I don't know if it can be countered in this way.

I'm going against conventional wisdom, here, but it does seem like the response would be checking an ability's targets before the ability resolves, which I don't think it ought to do.

Tom

EDIT: Didn't see Jebus' post, but I still think that the target of the first scroll, to use waSP's example, is being checked too early - surely targets of teferi's response are seperate from the targets of the previous ability?

[Jebus]

The ability may still be on the stack, but it is NOT a legal target.

The ability must target a land you control in order for it to be a legal target for TR.  As soon as it is no longer targeting a land, it is no longer a legal target for the TR.

The fact that the ability is still on the stack doesn't matter.

TR tries to resolves, sees that it's target is no longer legal, and is countered.

surely targets of teferi's response are seperate from the targets of the previous ability?

When TR resolves, it will check to be sure its target is legal.  It will see that its target is no longer targeting a land you control, so it is countered.

It's the same as anything else.  When the characteristics for a target make it no longer a legal target, the spell is countered.

[wonkey_donkey]

The ability may still be on the stack, but it is NOT a legal target.

The ability must target a land you control in order for it to be a legal target for TR.  As soon as it is no longer targeting a land, it is no longer a legal target for the TR.

The fact that the ability is still on the stack doesn't matter.

TR tries to resolves, sees that it's target is no longer legal, and is countered.

surely targets of teferi's response are seperate from the targets of the previous ability?

When TR resolves, it will check to be sure its target is legal.  It will see that its target is no longer targeting a land you control, so it is countered.

It's the same as anything else.  When the characteristics for a target make it no longer a legal target, the spell is countered.

Ah, I see. So a target can be illegal regardless of whether a spell or ability that had that target is able to be aware of it?

Tom

[Jebus]

Ah, I see. So a target can be illegal regardless of whether a spell or ability that had that target is able to be aware of it?

Tom

Why would TR not be aware of the Scroll's targets?


Teferis' Response requires the following for its target to be legal.

A:  It must be a spell or ability on the stack.

B:  That spell or ability must target a land you control.

When Teferi's response resolves it checks it's conditions.

A:  "Are you a still a spell or ability on the stack?" In this case, it gets "Yes, I am an ability on the stack."

B:  "Are you still targeting a land I control?"  In this case, it gets a "No, I am no longer targeting a land you control."

Since not all of the conditions for a legal target are true, TR is countered on resolution for having an illegal target.

[wonkey_donkey]

Why would TR not be aware of the Scroll's targets?

I was talking about the ability targeted by the response being unaware of whether it is still legal. The scroll has a legal target when announced, and then its target becomes illegal, but it only becomes aware of its illegality on resolution, when the ability is countered. Sorry for causing crossed wires there. Previously I was unaware that the response checked for legality of the target of the ability, rather than checking for the status of the ability, if that makes any sense - by status, I mean whether the ability still thinks it has a legal target (as the last time it checked, announcement, it was legal).

Tom

[Jebus]

I was talking about the ability targeted by the response being unaware of whether it is still legal. The scroll has a legal target when announced, and then its target becomes illegal, but it only becomes aware of its illegality on resolution, when the ability is countered. Sorry for causing crossed wires there. Previously I was unaware that the response checked for legality of the target of the ability, rather than checking for the status of the ability, if that makes any sense - by status, I mean whether the ability still thinks it has a legal target (as the last time it checked, announcement, it was legal).

Tom

The Scroll's target is illegal as soon as the land leaves play.  The Scroll doesn't make the check until it resolves, but this does not meant that its target is legal until then.

It doesn't matter that the Scroll doesn't care again until its abiltiy resolves, its target is not legal as soon as it isn't legal.

[ProZachar]

From now on, let's just call the hypothetical ability the (Cursed) Scroll ability (i.e. somebody tries to Scroll my animated man-land, I TR the Scroll ability, and he Strips in response to TR).

The scroll has a legal target when announced, and then its target becomes illegal, but it only becomes aware of its illegality on resolution, when the ability is countered

The issue is not whether the Scroll ability knows or doesn't know if its target is illegal.  The only issue is if the Scroll targets a land you control.  If the original target land of the Scroll ability is in the yard, then the Scroll ability by the definition of land* cannot target a land you control.

*Lands exist only in play.  Land cards exist only in zones that are not in play.

[Lockdown]

Many thanks, that's as I suspected, I merely wanted to confirm (and play devil's advocate   )